Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #10

[Zanzibar]

Just looking at all the various timelines posted here and I was wondering if there was evidence to say IK departed with WW on 15 Feb 1970 and that she married MJR in Hungary please?

15 Feb 1970 –IK and WW depart with baby from Sydney Aus to Belgium

1970 – IK marries MJR in her native Hungary

The NAA file shows IK (IW at the time) departing Sydney on QF 530 to Belgium on 10 May 1970. Rather bizarrely 2 days AFTER her infant daughter who departed on 8 May in flight KL844.

If I knew how to search for the passenger list of the KL flight I’d see who was accompanying each of them as it’s a very strange thing to put your 4 month old on a different flight.

While we’re on IK (W), I’ve been outing together my own timeline and I can’t work out how IK arrives in AUS by ship on 22 May if she was married on 10 May in Brussels. Did she fly?

 

[Roseberry]

I, for one, am happy to see the new members and hear their ideas-- especially since many of the same ideas have been expressed in much earlier threads. This tells me that there is a logic to Marion's disappearance, and that some scenarios make more sense that others.

I am also happy that the thread has moved back to Marion and away from RB's pre-Marion past. If this case is to be solved, imo, it will be from examining the time between Marion's point of departure from AUS and the withdrawal of her bank monies. Which is really a small time frame! Thanks to Mr C we have new evidence on RB to correlate to Marion, ie the car purchase and safety deposits.

I find myself wondering what I would investigate during that time period if I were an AUS detective on this case. Where would I concentrate my efforts?

I would concentrate efforts on determining the reasons for the amounts, timing and type (cash, bank transfer) of the withdrawals. The precise reasons for the $5k withdrawals and then lump sum transfer will determine whether or not MB ever made it back into Aus/made it back and partially withdrew/made it back and a third party withdrew.
I think details surrounding the bank transfer is probably the most important. It absolutely speaks to sudden time-pressure as has been suggested before. What concrete details are available on this besides transaction date? I thought I read way back it had been destroyed?

 

[Roseberry]

I, for one, am happy to see the new members and hear their ideas-- especially since many of the same ideas have been expressed in much earlier threads. This tells me that there is a logic to Marion's disappearance, and that some scenarios make more sense that others.

I am also happy that the thread has moved back to Marion and away from RB's pre-Marion past. If this case is to be solved, imo, it will be from examining the time between Marion's point of departure from AUS and the withdrawal of her bank monies. Which is really a small time frame! Thanks to Mr C we have new evidence on RB to correlate to Marion, ie the car purchase and safety deposits.

I find myself wondering what I would investigate during that time period if I were an AUS detective on this case. Where would I concentrate my efforts?

I think the time frame may be even smaller:
I would concentrate efforts on determining the reasons for the amounts, timing and type (cash, bank transfer) of the withdrawals. The precise reasons for the $5k withdrawals and then lump sum transfer will determine whether or not MB ever made it back into Aus/made it back and partially withdrew/made it back and a third party withdrew.
I think details surrounding the bank transfer is probably the most important. It absolutely speaks to sudden time-pressure as has been suggested before. What concrete details are available on this besides transaction date? I thought I read way back it had been destroyed?

 

[Zanzibar]

I made notes of that name change in 1969, which was introduced by counsel at the inquest as he applied for a permit to remain as WW and it was granted to FDH (after a deed poll name change), and I subsequently listened again to this exchange to confirm it. However, there is no other reference to this anywhere in the NAA notes, so now I am wondering if this was actually when citizenship was granted in 1976?

I have no documents or dates indicating any name change request in 1969 and many using his WW name at the time.

You’re right, he applied and was granted the name change in 12/02/1976 just prior to marriage to DdH.

 

[ruby925]

Omg!! Perhaps that’s it!! Maybe he wanted her to have that name so SHE could access accounts in Remekel’s name overseas??? Maybe the fleece was actually on the other FR or a female member of his family and Marion was caught in the middle??!!

Maybe this was the plan, to fleece the real FNR somehow using MB, now FNMR...a personal vendetta..after all, he was so keen on MC! And RB would not want a name change to FNR to leave a trail. I am not convinced as it doesn't fit any of his MO, but still is plausible.

 

[mishy66]

For a rather random link.....https://www.theaustralian.com.au/ne...n/news-story/527dcefad0823a9a449d215b15d20196

The walkers travelled to Southampton on the MS Shota Rustaveli, when I searched this popped up, none other than some KGB agents on board!

Are you able to post the details please? You have to subscribe to read it.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I love @Peralta's posts. This is one she wrote last year, which illustrates how we've been on the same wavelength, as far as the scenario, for years, even before RB! I've edited her post down, but you can read entire post here: Australia - Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #4

(@Peralta writes Going through my timeline and notes on Marion's case, I made a list of questions I hope the inquest can shed light on:

- Will the dentist who witnessed Marion's name change on 15 May 1997 be a called in as a witness?

- Did they ever find and interview the Doctor who saw Marion at a clinic at Grafton Shopping World on 13 August 1997, after she returned to Australia?
. . .
- Did they ever find the shipping container abandoned, a shipping receipt out of Australia, or into Luxembourg?
. . .
- Will Graham Patrick Higgins be mentioned or be a witness? He used to work at the Commonwealth Bank, Byron Bay branch at the time Marion disappeared, and was convicted in 2006 for defrauding elderly and vulnerable customers.

- Did they investigate a possible link between the Commonwealth Bank branches in Byron Bay and Burleigh Heads? By this I mean, was there one staff member who worked at those branches on the days Marion's money was withdrawn?

- Will we learn more about the father of Marion's student who Marion liked or may have even dated? Some say he was a pilot for Cathay Pacific and others say he just liked to dress as a pilot (!?) Why was an adult just 'dressing as a pilot'? Is this Catch Me If You Can? Always thought this was very weird. [ how prescient was this!]

- Is there any more info on Marion's wallet being stolen before she left for the UK, and the women who was impersonating her?



​

 

[ruby925]

with ref to Ilona's departure in 1970, I have been searching for a possible travel companion. Failed, but did find a Michael John Reid who is a potential candidate for Ilona's partner. DOB 2Dec1947, New Zealander who had been living in Sydney.
Two departure cards in 1970, 20May1970 leaves permanently, then 13Dec1970 leaves Sydney for a two month holiday.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Random. The Le Courrier Australien had their office at 396 Kent Street, Sydney in the 1970's. In the 1990s when the ad was placed they were at 149 Castlereagh Street, Sydney. Does anyone know where the cafe was that DW's parents had in the '70s? Thanks if anyone can assist.

 

[Roseberry]

Omg!! Perhaps that’s it!! Maybe he wanted her to have that name so SHE could access accounts in Remekel’s name overseas??? Maybe the fleece was actually on the other FR or a female member of his family and Marion was caught in the middle??!!

There’s no other reason for MB to change her name and specifically to those initials and surname other than to provide RB with an ID to access funds set up in FNR name (or perhaps as you point out fleece the real FNR or family member.) No other purpose to the name change IMO.

 

[Zanzibar]

Okay, I was today years old when I found out you get fined if you don't vote in Aus.

You don’t really get fined if you don’t vote, you get fined if you don’t front up and get your name marked off. You can put a blank ballot paper in the box if you like, entirely up to you.

 

[ruby925]

The NAA file shows IK (IW at the time) departing Sydney on QF 530 to Belgium on 10 May 1970. Rather bizarrely 2 days AFTER her infant daughter who departed on 8 May in flight KL844.

If I knew how to search for the passenger list of the KL flight I’d see who was accompanying each of them as it’s a very strange thing to put your 4 month old on a different flight.

While we’re on IK (W), I’ve been outing together my own timeline and I can’t work out how IK arrives in AUS by ship on 22 May if she was married on 10 May in Brussels. Did she fly?

IK arrival card shows 172 in the field for flight number or name of ship and embarked London, so she probably flew in.
I still think the flight information on IKs departure card in 1970 is incorrect..it is definitely not IKs handwriting, probably filled in by staff when the card was filed.

 

[mishy66]

The NAA file P215 has a departing passenger card for Ilona Wouters dated 10May70 (date not in her handwriting) flight QF530, ticked married and departing permanently, her signature looks like Kinczel.
P217 is the departing card for EJ, Australian born 18jan70, departing after 4months in Australia on KL844, signed by mother, looks like same IK signature.
There is a departure card for an MJR on 2Oct71, p75, but I don't think this is Ilona's MJR. Two other MJRs in Australia, both emigrated from UK, look more likely but not found a marriage yet.

Yes I have these which is why I asked the question of WHY are timelines stating she left with WW, departing with a baby on Feb 15 1970. - what evidence was this to come to that conclusion?) It makes it very confusing for anyone researching.

@Jamaha found these entries a few days back and it shows IK left 10 May 1970 and the baby E - born 18 January 1970 ( as per my previous theory some time back - that I was called out on), left 2 days prior to Ilona on the 8 May 1970

IK signature on both are the same.

So she went to the airport with another person and her baby, filled out the passenger card for EJ and then someone travelled with the baby back to Belgium. IMO

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Question for Australians: Why did the taxman not come after Marion all those years she was missing? The $80,000 withdrawal alone would have been a big red flag in US.

 

[ruby925]

Yes I have these which is why I asked the question of WHY are timelines stating she left with WW, departing with a baby on Feb 15 1970. - what evidence was this to come to that conclusion?) It makes it very confusing for anyone researching.

@Jamaha found these entries a few days back and it shows IK left 10 May 1970 and the baby E - born 18 January 1970 ( as per my previous theory some time back - that I was called out on), left 2 days prior to Ilona on the 8 May 1970

IK signature on both are the same.

So she went to the airport with another person and her baby, filled out the passenger card for EJ and then someone travelled with the baby back to Belgium. IMO

Agreed, the IK signatures are the same, but Ilona's flight details have been written by another hand in black pen, that's why I believe they are incorrect and baby's flight details are correct for them both as written by Ilona. Good that we can have different opinions.

 

[mishy66]

It looks as if there have been many mistakes in a timeline posted by a member here. This is what I had and I have now intertwined with yours. My comments are in red:

2/10/1969 Willy Wouters granted resident status in Sydney due to alleged marriage to Ilona Kinczel

18/1/1970 Ilona gives birth to first child EW (ER)

2/2/1970 Ilona Wouters, baby and Willy Wouters left Australia on UT2506 from Sydney to Belgium. Willy Wouters departed without a re-entry visa, status Divorced

I could never understand why they left on the same plane when WW wrote divorced.

So that should now read:

2/2/1970 Willy Wouters left Australia on UT2506 from Sydney to Belgium. Departed without a re-entry visa, status Divorced

10/5/70 EJ departed on KL844, signed by mother, looks like same IK signature. IK left on flight QF530, ticked married, departing permanently, her signature looks like Kinczel.

Do you mean EW?

How could a mother and her baby leave on different flights?

1970 Ilona married in Budapest Hungary to MJR (Reid)

1971 Ilona second child born

2/2/1970 Willy Wouters left Australia....
No, WW left 15 Feb 1970 - not the 2nd

Do you mean EW?
EW - I took as someone referring to her as E Wouters Reid on these previous timelines to make the connection between Wouters and Reid.

How could a mother and her baby leave on different flights?
Someone else was with them that she trusted to let her baby leave with them IMO


This very discussion about various dates and timelines that have been made in the past in regards to WW /IK <modsnip>

EJWR was born in January 1970 - In the year 2014 she was 44 yrs old as per media writeup.

<modsnip>

 

[mishy66]

Yes, I would love to see a record re: the marriage. I've had no luck with this, was hoping someone else had come across something? That's when I had come across that ancestry website where the parents were also listed with the surname Reid, but most of us had come to the conclusion it was just a mistake. The Ilona relationship still leaves me a bit baffled.

I am slowly making a connection to them. It would be great to get records after 1976 for sure!
Yes I am going with the ancestry link posted up by someone that I wish I could remember ha! It had IK parents listed as Father family name Kinczel and mothers maiden name Novotny.

It is a tricky one!

With that MJR listed March 1969 under complaints / requests makes it all the more curious!

 

[mishy66]

Ilona's flight/date details are not in her handwriting, so may have been filled in later by a staff member. EJ baby details may be more accurate.

I don't think IK has filled out EJ card either.

 

[mishy66]

I read that as Ilona E J WOUTERS as being her name not the baby's. The baby was Evelyn Wouters. Maybe it was a type of mother/daughter card?

I find it strange that she put she was in NSW for 4 months but that was for the baby but IK would have been here 12 months. I also thought it strange that she went to all that trouble and then left permanently but she came back here eventually and then unfortunately died. I guess if the father was WW, she would have been upset that she was now on her own with a young baby so went back to her parents in Belgium first but then married the same year to a man with an English sounding name in Hungary. Maybe she met him in Australia.

She would have used her name in front of EJ name to show on the travel docs she was the mother of.
The baby was born in January, leaving in May - so she is 4 mths old, this is how long she has been in Australia
IK was in Aust for longer.

You seem to be going back to my original theory I see

 

[BabeBlues]

Great sleuthing! but I think we can settle on the expiry date of the QLD DL in the name FNR expiring on 2 December 1997, because I think that fabulous link you found is written in a different date format [YYYY- MM-DD or 1947-12-02] being 2 December 1947?? Can someone else check my reasoning?

You're quite right, I clearly looked at the date wrong. 2 December is the right DOB for the real FNR