Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #10

[Pineconemind]

I've said this before, it's just so interesting that IK goes through all of the immigration process to just turn around and leave Australia permanently. Gahhhh it makes no sense!

 

[Estelle]

100% Don't know what the policies were exactly in 1997, but I could only assume you would need either:-

1. Current Driver's Licence issued by your resident country + International Drivers Permit (which as far as I am aware, you can only apply for and get in your home country)

or 2. If in 1997 an IDP was not required (I think there is/was an agreement in place between UK & Aus where you don't need an IDP for the first 12 months of arriving in UK), then I can only assume you would need to pair that with your passport.

I know currently to hire a car in UK/Europe I would need to present my current licence and a passport and in many EU countries an IDP aswell.

And then the rules, of course, are different again if you hold a European drivers licence.

Until there is confirmed information, this makes me think that RB was driving Marion around England then dropped her off in Tunbridge Wells with no car Most women I know in their 50s are loathe to drive in another country even if it is on the same side of the road even though I have done it when older than Marion would have been.

 

[Estelle]

I read that as Ilona E J WOUTERS as being her name not the baby's. The baby was Evelyn Wouters. Maybe it was a type of mother/daughter card?

I find it strange that she put she was in NSW for 4 months but that was for the baby but IK would have been here 12 months. I also thought it strange that she went to all that trouble and then left permanently but she came back here eventually and then unfortunately died. I guess if the father was WW, she would have been upset that she was now on her own with a young baby so went back to her parents in Belgium first but then married the same year to a man with an English sounding name in Hungary. Maybe she met him in Australia.

 

[Meligator]

Wait what???
This says embarkation date of 5/18/70 (which would be 4 months of age). Did IK & WW leave in February without the baby? How did IK sign as mother in Sydney in May 1970?

 

[ruby925]

I read that as Ilona E J WOUTERS as being her name not the baby's. The baby was Evelyn Wouters. Maybe it was a type of mother/daughter card?

I find it strange that she put she was in NSW for 4 months but that was for the baby but IK would have been here 12 months. I also thought it strange that she went to all that trouble and then left permanently but she came back here eventually and then unfortunately died. I guess if the father was WW, she would have been upset that she was now on her own with a young baby so went back to her parents in Belgium first but then married the same year to a man with an English sounding name in Hungary. Maybe she met him in Australia.

There is another card for Ilona. This is the baby's card, hence she was in NSW for four months as she was only four months old, and Ilona has signed it as the mother.

 

[ruby925]

Wait what???
This says embarkation date of 5/18/70 (which would be 4 months of age). Did IK & WW leave in February without the baby? How did IK sign as mother in Sydney in May 1970?

I cannot see a departure card for Ilona in February 1970, only those of her and her baby in May.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I, for one, am happy to see the new members and hear their ideas-- especially since many of the same ideas have been expressed in much earlier threads. This tells me that there is a logic to Marion's disappearance, and that some scenarios make more sense that others.

I am also happy that the thread has moved back to Marion and away from RB's pre-Marion past. If this case is to be solved, imo, it will be from examining the time between Marion's point of departure from AUS and the withdrawal of her bank monies. Which is really a small time frame! Thanks to Mr C we have new evidence on RB to correlate to Marion, ie the car purchase and safety deposits.

I find myself wondering what I would investigate during that time period if I were an AUS detective on this case. Where would I concentrate my efforts?

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Just a quick google about withdrawing funds from a high interest account shows several reasons Marion (or imposter) might have made the $5000 withdrawals. In the US a bank doesn't have to report savings withdrawals of that size to the IRS (our tax department) whereas larger withdrawals must be reported. (paper trail) I also found these lines from AUS 7News (2019):

Former Commonwealth Bank staff told 7NEWS there were strict identification procedures for withdrawing large sums of cash and a manager would have been alerted to the transactions.​

No bank employees were interviewed as part of the police investigation.​

The branch manager at the time has since died, and the Commonwealth Bank has declined to share any records.
​

 

[brjakj]

I cannot see a departure card for Ilona in February 1970, only those of her and her baby in May.

See attached for IW

 

[vivienbee]

Yes exactly. There’s literally 2 scenarios with this money and MB’s return.

Respectfully disagree - there is a third scenario that it was Marion who flew back to Aus but someone else who withdrew the money (whatever Marion's status at the time).

 

[Meligator]

See attached for IW

I could have sworn there was one for her on 2/15/1970, listing same flight as WW. I'll have to look for it.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

1. The person the teller remembered may well have been the real Marion initially.
2. The teller was too afraid of losing her job after allowing a male to pose as a woman.
IMO, he simply posed as a male Marion Barter, probably with an additional form of ID if required and speaking broken 'French' english to evade any awkward questions.

I don’t he’d pass for a woman lol

 

[Meligator]

See attached for IW

Baby EW left 5/8/1970 on KL 844
IW left 5/10/1970 on QF530

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

'MB has her passport, and def an international license as Remakel and possible more also QLD'. This is where I picked up that info, not finger-pointing though. Marion did say she was driving in UK, difficult to find out what ID she would have needed in 1997, but I would have thought a passport and matching drivers license?

Yes I would have thought the same.. as if you hire a car OS they ask for international license and your passport.

 

[ruby925]

See attached for IW

Yes, that is her departure card for May 1970, but I can't see one for Feb 70 when WW departed.

 

[ruby925]

Baby EW left 5/8/1970 on KL 844
IW left 5/10/1970 on QF530

IWs flight details were written in a different hand, so baby's flight details are more likely to be accurate..otherwise baby flew with someone else...

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Theory number 457,000 for me.

They return together, the initial few withdrawals are Marion he is with her.. then after a few days or so .. he begins making the withdrawals on her behalf.. (as her husband) bank have seen him know who he is so don’t question anything..

He does this for the rest of the weeks required.. she is deceased by then.. and no one seems to notice anything so he does the transfer..

I don’t believe he dressed as woman and I’m still not convinced his Mrs is able to carry off posing as another woman for fraud purposes as she just seems not confident enough to do that.. and that would raise suspicion it’s her nerves and odd behaviour.

He however has always done his activities in plain sight of authorities so he does the same.. he withdraws it and like normal no one suspects anything at the time…

until TLV and the wonderful slueth who found the ad.

 

[LouLouSleuth]

Hard to forge a passport, easier to convince someone to change their name to your requirements for your own (pecuniary) advantage. Perhaps there was a need for an ID specifically with those initials and surname to access accounts set up in FNR here or abroad. (I’d be searching Remakel accounts Aus, but bear in mind his 1994 ad sought a French- speaking potential Mme. Remekel, which btw I don’t think MB answered) There’s no sentimentality involved on his part. The name change was directed by him and for a specific purpose, separate but additional to his operation on her funds.

Omg!! Perhaps that’s it!! Maybe he wanted her to have that name so SHE could access accounts in Remekel’s name overseas??? Maybe the fleece was actually on the other FR or a female member of his family and Marion was caught in the middle??!!

 

[LouLouSleuth]

agree not sure this guy is a murder, I hope he is not !

So far we have seen no evidence he is even very good at what he does, only failed scams so far and they are hardly living the life of luxury, they don't even own a home, drove 1 car between them, where is the money ?

I really hope Marion is still alive

Don’t forget he threatened GGB. Maybe just words but maybe not. And the dead can’t talk, so maybe there are many others who can’t speak for themselves?

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Yes I would have thought the same.. as if you hire a car OS they ask for international license and your passport.

Driving in UK from US in 1990's we only needed our domestic driver's license, if I remember correctly. Of course, our names on licenses matched our passports. So if Marion did drive, see could have gotten an Intl license in Remakel with her Barter DL saying she just got married. OR she drive a non-rental car belonging to someone else.