Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #10

[Meligator]

Just looking at all the various timelines posted here and I was wondering if there was evidence to say IK departed with WW on 15 Feb 1970 and that she married MJR in Hungary please?


15 Feb 1970 –IK and WW depart with baby from Sydney Aus to Belgium

1970 – IK marries MJR in her native Hungary

The Feb departure records are in NAA. The marriage info (I believe) comes from information on IK’s death records (someone may have posted but I’m not sure). I’m guessing the death records could be based on someone (spouses?) report and may not have required any verified marriage record from Hungary. Not saying anyone has reason to lie, just saying it may be an somewhat unofficial account of her marriage (but a true account of her death).

 

[Roseberry]

The name Marion is a boy's name of French origin meaning "drop of the sea, bitter, or beloved". (Google)

Absolutely but I suspect it was not that specific - ID was required in the name of FN Remekel to access funds either in Aus (look at pay clerk who had Remekel on payroll in business next to Arts centre to begin Aus trail) or more probably Overseas (ad for French-speaking partner with possible Euro passport to co-opt for easier procedure in obtaining funds from OS investments). Third and fourth forenames are often baptismal names from both female and male godparents and easily explained. I don’t think this ID was created to access MB funds . Suspect MB was collateral in the execution of a wider plan. Name change served dual purpose to hide her movements and harvest accounts under FNR name from activities which he was rapidly aging out of or from which technology was rapidly catching up to him.

 

[BonnieB]

Yes, I know that, but this address doesn't exist in London although it does in Australia near RB and I am sure he said (at the inquest)he knew Bernard Dupont, he was a friend. Just MOO.

From memory, WW wrote bogus cheques against DuPont's bank account and forged his signature etc. Pge 52-55 of Willy Wonka's NAA file I think. Some friend!!

 

[ruby925]

I assume this means that you don't have to show your licence or passport every time you withdraw up to $5,000. They rely on your signature and the bank is covered by insurance for up to that amount just in case there is a problem.

This is why I thought MB withdrew the money in 5K daily, as her accounts were still in MB name but her driving license and passport were in FNMR name.

 

[ruby925]

From memory, WW wrote bogus cheques against DuPont's bank account and forged his signature etc. Pge 52-55 of Willy Wonka's NAA file I think. Some friend!!

My notes say RB used Bernard DPs to draw up 2leases for a flat

 

[ruby925]

Just looking at all the various timelines posted here and I was wondering if there was evidence to say IK departed with WW on 15 Feb 1970 and that she married MJR in Hungary please?


15 Feb 1970 –IK and WW depart with baby from Sydney Aus to Belgium

1970 – IK marries MJR in her native Hungary

The NAA file P215 has a departing passenger card for Ilona Wouters dated 10May70 (date not in her handwriting) flight QF530, ticked married and departing permanently, her signature looks like Kinczel.
P217 is the departing card for EJ, Australian born 18jan70, departing after 4months in Australia on KL844, signed by mother, looks like same IK signature.
There is a departure card for an MJR on 2Oct71, p75, but I don't think this is Ilona's MJR. Two other MJRs in Australia, both emigrated from UK, look more likely but not found a marriage yet.

 

[BonnieB]

My notes say RB used Bernard DPs to draw up 2leases for a flat

Charged with opening a bank account in the name of BERNARD DUPONT, using a forged seal/die, using a forged stamp in the name of Bernard Dupont. There was aso some skullduggery over forged receipts in DuPont's name for a Citroen car. I recall reading about the flat leases but can't recall DuPont's name in connection with that.

 

[ruby925]

Charged with opening a bank account in the name of BERNARD DUPONT, using a forged seal/die, using a forged stamp in the name of Bernard Dupont. There was aso some skullduggery over forged receipts in DuPont's name for a Citroen car. I recall reading about the flat leases but can't recall DuPont's name in connection with that.

Ok thanks, then my page of notes is wrong there, I have him using the Roger Lauzoney name to open an account, then Bernard Dupont for the leases and possibly the forged car number plates and the forged die. I am obviously not a reliable note taker ha ha!

 

[Estelle]

This is why I thought MB withdrew the money in 5K daily, as her accounts were still in MB name but her driving license and passport were in FNMR name.

I have never read that Marion's driving licence was in the Remakel name. Do you have proof of that?

I really don't think you have to provide your ID to withdraw up to $5,000 as bank is covered by insurance for fraud. I have never had to show ID at a bank unless I am overseas but then again has anyone on this thread ever withdrawn $5,000 in cash in Australia? Maybe you have to provide ID only when withdrawing MORE THAN $5,000 hence why RB/DDH had to do it under the $5,000 limit.

Also remember when someone stole Marion's wallet? Her driving licence in the name of Marion Barter would have been in her wallet. IMO the thief was RB as he was following her that day (she left the car door open) and then kept her licence. Even if she did cancel it, banks are not going to go to the trouble of finding out if the licence has been cancelled and they last for five years.

 

[BonnieB]

Ok thanks, then my page of notes is wrong there, I have him using the Roger Lauzoney name to open an account, then Bernard Dupont for the leases and possibly the forged car number plates and the forged die. I am obviously not a reliable note taker ha ha!

He did that too, Sep 1-30 1976 Forged signature in name of Roger Lauzoney to open a bank account.

 

[Pineconemind]

My QLD DL experience indicates that the renewal on 2/10/1992 doesn't necessarily give the birthdate as you can renew prior to its expiry and that date will be on the DL as the renewal date. But the expiry date should give you the DOB used. So if 2/12/1997 is the expiry date of the DL then 2 December is the birthday.

[so my current QLD DL shows that it was renewed before the expiry date of the last licence but the expiry date of my DL shows that it will expiry on my birthday 5 years from its renewal]

I too have a QLD drivers licence, however the expiry date has nothing to do with my date of birth?

 

[Estelle]

The NAA file P215 has a departing passenger card for Ilona Wouters dated 10May70 (date not in her handwriting) flight QF530, ticked married and departing permanently, her signature looks like Kinczel.
P217 is the departing card for EJ, Australian born 18jan70, departing after 4months in Australia on KL844, signed by mother, looks like same IK signature.
There is a departure card for an MJR on 2Oct71, p75, but I don't think this is Ilona's MJR. Two other MJRs in Australia, both emigrated from UK, look more likely but not found a marriage yet.

It looks as if there have been many mistakes in a timeline posted by a member here. This is what I had and I have now intertwined with yours. My comments are in red:

2/10/1969 Willy Wouters granted resident status in Sydney due to alleged marriage to Ilona Kinczel

18/1/1970 Ilona gives birth to first child EW (ER)

2/2/1970 Ilona Wouters, baby and Willy Wouters left Australia on UT2506 from Sydney to Belgium. Willy Wouters departed without a re-entry visa, status Divorced

I could never understand why they left on the same plane when WW wrote divorced.

So that should now read:

2/2/1970 Willy Wouters left Australia on UT2506 from Sydney to Belgium. Departed without a re-entry visa, status Divorced

10/5/70 EJ departed on KL844, signed by mother, looks like same IK signature. IK left on flight QF530, ticked married, departing permanently, her signature looks like Kinczel.

Do you mean EW?

How could a mother and her baby leave on different flights?

1970 Ilona married in Budapest Hungary to MJR (Reid)

1971 Ilona second child born

 

[ruby925]

I have never read that Marion's driving licence was in the Remakel name. Do you have proof of that?

I really don't think you have to provide your ID to withdraw up to $5,000 as bank is covered by insurance for fraud. I have never had to show ID at a bank unless I am overseas but then again has anyone on this thread ever withdrawn $5,000 in cash in Australia?

No, I didn't know about MB's driving license in FNMR name either, I believe I took that from someone else's post so I will go back and check. And I understood that the amount withdrawn daily was to avoid ID checks. Happy to be proved wrong.

 

[Pineconemind]

Yes, I know that, but this address doesn't exist in London although it does in Australia near RB and I am sure he said (at the inquest)he knew Bernard Dupont, he was a friend. Just MOO.

I remember doing searches on a couple of the addresses from that file and too thought it was strange that a search on google maps brought up Australian addresses.

 

[ruby925]

It looks as if there have been many mistakes in a timeline posted by a member here. This is what I had and I have now intertwined with yours. My comments are in red:

2/10/1969 Willy Wouters granted resident status in Sydney due to alleged marriage to Ilona Kinczel

18/1/1970 Ilona gives birth to first child EW (ER)

2/2/1970 Ilona Wouters, baby and Willy Wouters left Australia on UT2506 from Sydney to Belgium. Willy Wouters departed without a re-entry visa, status Divorced

I could never understand why they left on the same plane when WW wrote divorced.

So that should now read:

2/2/1970 Willy Wouters left Australia on UT2506 from Sydney to Belgium. Departed without a re-entry visa, status Divorced

10/5/70 IK left on flight QF530, ticked married, departing permanently, her signature looks like Kinczel.
EJ departing on KL844, signed by mother, looks like same IK signature.

How could a mother and her baby leave on different flights?

1970 Ilona married in Budapest Hungary to MJR (Reid)

1971 Ilona second child born

Ilona's flight/date details are not in her handwriting, so may have been filled in later by a staff member. EJ baby details may be more accurate.

 

[Estelle]

Ilona's flight/date details are not in her handwriting, so may have been filled in later by a staff member. EJ baby details may be more accurate.

Why are you using the initials EJ? I thought she was EW.

 

[Pineconemind]

Just looking at all the various timelines posted here and I was wondering if there was evidence to say IK departed with WW on 15 Feb 1970 and that she married MJR in Hungary please?


15 Feb 1970 –IK and WW depart with baby from Sydney Aus to Belgium

1970 – IK marries MJR in her native Hungary

Yes, I would love to see a record re: the marriage. I've had no luck with this, was hoping someone else had come across something? That's when I had come across that ancestry website where the parents were also listed with the surname Reid, but most of us had come to the conclusion it was just a mistake. The Ilona relationship still leaves me a bit baffled.

 

[ruby925]

No, I didn't know about MB's driving license in FNMR name either, I believe I took that from someone else's post so I will go back and check. And I understood that the amount withdrawn daily was to avoid ID checks. Happy to be proved wrong.

'MB has her passport, and def an international license as Remakel and possible more also QLD'. This is where I picked up that info, not finger-pointing though. Marion did say she was driving in UK, difficult to find out what ID she would have needed in 1997, but I would have thought a passport and matching drivers license?

 

[ruby925]

Why are you using the initials EJ? I thought she was EW.

 

[Pineconemind]

'MB has her passport, and def an international license as Remakel and possible more also QLD'. This is where I picked up that info, not finger-pointing though. Marion did say she was driving in UK, difficult to find out what ID she would have needed in 1997, but I would have thought a passport and matching drivers license?

100% Don't know what the policies were exactly in 1997, but I could only assume you would need either:-

1. Current Driver's Licence issued by your resident country + International Drivers Permit (which as far as I am aware, you can only apply for and get in your home country)

or 2. If in 1997 an IDP was not required (I think there is/was an agreement in place between UK & Aus where you don't need an IDP for the first 12 months of arriving in UK), then I can only assume you would need to pair that with your passport.

I know currently to hire a car in UK/Europe I would need to present my current licence and a passport and in many EU countries an IDP aswell.

And then the rules, of course, are different again if you hold a European drivers licence.