Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #10

[Roseberry]

Maybe his horsey injuries were actually caused by a car accident?

IMO I'd put $ on it being a car for the lower limbs. Classic MV collision impact injury. Dragged behind a bolting horse - soft tissue, maybe fx femur, head injuries (more head injuries, that's not good). He says got a massive payout from the gendarmerie, so maybe there's a GoT there.
Is it that he won't drive or can't drive? If he was banged up that bad he might not be able to operate a MV due to tendon/ligament damage.
Needs to keep on a full-time chauffeur then...IMO

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Is anyone else trawling through the Belgium publications website?
Home • KBR

Would like some advice. I don't believe we can post any links from the site because you need to register to view the documents which have copyright limitations. Given WS forum needs a link, and the copyright issues would prevent that - I guess it’s off limits?

There are various simple public notices in the newspapers confirming details such as:
Death notice on 25-03-1943 for DD 37 years, a car driver in Templeuve, and husband to a MC.
Marriage notice on 05–04-1950 include an AW, a 26 year old army volunteer marrying a seamstress MC widow of a DD.
A conviction/imprisonment notice about WW for scams in 1969.

But there are plenty of interesting articles like a car collision involving a man with the name WW.

I’m new here, I presume these links can’t be shared?

Great find there CrossingToSafety, I just registered there, thank you. Lots of interesting things to look through. Just saw birth announcement of FD

 

[brjakj]

Great find there CrossingToSafety, I just registered there, thank you. Lots of interesting things to look through. Just saw birth announcement of FD

Yes he seems to be the only one who got a birth announcement. Wonder why?

 

[mishy66]

IMO, the whole story of the horse accident and his injuries has never sat right. The use of ungelded patrol horses, especially for riders with minimal training? The type of injuries described at inquest (D7, 0:48 on) - (bilateral compound fractures of lower limbs (tibia and fibula, requiring bone grafts), femur, ribs, head injuries ...) seem much more consistent with injuries commonly sustained in an MVA.
He might've fallen off his horse (due to inexperience? - training is only a few weeks) and ended up in hospital with some injuries that lead to a payout, but the catastrophic ones he describes? Whole other accident IMO.

Agree! That paper notice about the accident was interesting to say the least!

 

[mishy66]

So do you think FW born 7 June 1942 is the brother for WW and it's all a lie the story of DH is his real father. I don't believe the story of the orphanage. Also could it be WW impersonating FW? IMO

I think somewhere in the middle of that is the truth.
FreddyDavidWouters born 1942 has been on all GEN sites as deceased ( yet to find the date for this)
WW news article 1967 states deceased ( IF THIS IS THE SAME WW family) at the moment the birthdate age doesn't align
BUT we dont have a birthdate yet for other brother DW so..........

( just trying to work out who your DH is ... my brain has the alphabet scrambled through it hahha!)

 

[mishy66]

Yes I believe it was ww using fw details. Based on the info we have from these papers, I’m certain DD is his father. As for the orphanage, who knows, there could have been any number of reasons why he could have been sent there.
I’ve done quite a lot of research on the family tree and I cannot see dH anywhere so I still don’t know where that name came from.

Yes based on all the information since that wonderful link by @CrossingToSafety , AW can not be the father of WW ( he would have been 15 at the time).
So DD is definitely the father of him and I would say FW also.

So they use the stepfathers name Wouters after the marriage to their mother.
DD is showing the children all the tricks of the trade it seems....


WHAT is interesting though is FDW is born the same year that WDW tells the inquest he is sent to the orphanage.

 

[mishy66]

well I, for one, have enjoyed your musings on the subject. Certainly a fascinating character and would make the basis for a great novel.

Thanks so much hahaaha!
There is a definite link to him with all of this but it could be that WDW has been mirroring the life of DCOD.

 

[CrossingToSafety]

Is this where it started? The dates seem for fit.

22/01/1957 - Le soir - pg 4

dodgy translation of relevant parts attached

Yes that one seems to fit doesn’t it!

There are a few WW’s to sift through. I notice quite a few in the motor cross sports pages, and soccer, incidents that are interesting but have incorrect ages etc….

 

[Liselle]

IMO, the whole story of the horse accident and his injuries has never sat right. The use of ungelded patrol horses, especially for riders with minimal training? The type of injuries described at inquest (D7, 0:48 on) - (bilateral compound fractures of lower limbs (tibia and fibula, requiring bone grafts), femur, ribs, head injuries ...) seem much more consistent with injuries commonly sustained in an MVA.
He might've fallen off his horse (due to inexperience? - training is only a few weeks) and ended up in hospital with some injuries that lead to a payout, but the catastrophic ones he describes? Whole other accident IMO.

To back up @Roseberry supposition, I also have wondered about the story of the Belgium Gendarmerie. After 1957, the Gendarmerie was separated from Belgium Army Territorial Defense Force and RB said he did one year with the Army before moving to the Gendarmerie for 2/3 years. If this is correct, WHY on page 96 of the NAA report, is an Army Pay Book provided as personal evidence and NOT employment and/or injury compensation paperwork from the Gendarmerie, where he supposedly spent most of his time?

 

[Roseberry]

Yes I believe it was ww using fw details. Based on the info we have from these papers, I’m certain DD is his father. As for the orphanage, who knows, there could have been any number of reasons why he could have been sent there.
I’ve done quite a lot of research on the family tree and I cannot see dH anywhere so I still don’t know where that name came from.

I can't find dH anywhere either, unusual since he recycles names from someone else usually. Is it confirmed where his father is actually from?
At inquest he says his father's name is Hedervary as that's what he was told when he entered the orphanage as a little boy.
Going out on a bit of a limb and looking at how names are used here eg - coin auction the collection is listed as Maria Coppennolle de Froyennes, ie of Froyennes, little village a bit up the road from Tournai, has he been told his father is Desire David de Hedervary ie of Hungary? Unless he's aligning himself with Hungarian royalty or imagining he's a semi-famous painter. Bit out there I know, getting desperate!

 

[mishy66]

DW, PW & DW all departed Sydney on the Shota Rustaveli on 19 Jan 1970. According to their passenger cards they were going for business for 18months.

Interestingly it was just shy of a month prior to WW returning to Europe on 15 Feb 1970 without his estranged wife and brand new baby who left separately three months later. This opens up a possibility they knew each other prior to leaving and WW wooing her prior to the return in the Chusan.

Also of interest, and I posted a link previously to a media article on this, that trip on the Shota Rustaveli had a link to KGB agents travelling and meeting with a couple and their daughter, the latter who became a greens senator and faced questions about the KGB connection during her time in office

Yes the DdeH family leave the month before WDW leaves and only 1 day after WDW and IK baby is born.



I couldn't read that link you posted back then as you have to subscribe but I did find a bunch of info on that Greenie aboard the same Soviet-flagged cruise liner MS Shota Rustaveli from Sydney to Southampton and her mothers political activist dealings - there is a book about her life "Swimming Against the Tide".

 

[fastpiece]

Yes based on all the information since that wonderful link by @CrossingToSafety , AW can not be the father of WW ( he would have been 15 at the time).
So DD is definitely the father of him and I would say FW also.

So they use the stepfathers name Wouters after the marriage to their mother.
DD is showing the children all the tricks of the trade it seems....


WHAT is interesting though is FDW is born the same year that WDW tells the inquest he is sent to the orphanage.

Sorry probably should have written dH to make it clearer.

 

[Roseberry]

I can't find dH anywhere either, unusual since he recycles names from someone else usually. Is it confirmed where his father is actually from?
At inquest he says his father's name is Hedervary as that's what he was told when he entered the orphanage as a little boy.
Going out on a bit of a limb and looking at how names are used here eg - coin auction the collection is listed as Maria Coppennolle de Froyennes, ie of Froyennes, little village a bit up the road from Tournai, has he been told his father is Desire David de Hedervary ie of Hungary? Unless he's aligning himself with Hungarian royalty or imagining he's a semi-famous painter. Bit out there I know, getting desperate!

Also, it was common to hide children in orphanages or other homes in Belgium during the early 1940's and if they had a Jewish-sounding surname, to use that as a middle name and add another surname to hide their identity. Or they'd take on the surname of the family they were hiding out with. Why Coppennolle wouldn't have been used I don't know. So it could be possible he did enter an orphanage to hide him and when he entered it he was told his name was de Hedervary as he said.

 

[brjakj]

I can't find dH anywhere either, unusual since he recycles names from someone else usually. Is it confirmed where his father is actually from?
At inquest he says his father's name is Hedervary as that's what he was told when he entered the orphanage as a little boy.
Going out on a bit of a limb and looking at how names are used here eg - coin auction the collection is listed as Maria Coppennolle de Froyennes, ie of Froyennes, little village a bit up the road from Tournai, has he been told his father is Desire David de Hedervary ie of Hungary? Unless he's aligning himself with Hungarian royalty or imagining he's a semi-famous painter. Bit out there I know, getting desperate!

yes I’ve often thought that de Hedervary means “of” Hedervary (in Hungary).

I do wonder why he used his brothers name though. I mean, if one of my kids got criminal convictions and gave the name of my other kid, I would not be happy. And I wouldn’t be surprised if back then they were disowned from the family!

 

[Liselle]

Also, it was common to hide children in orphanages or other homes in Belgium during the early 1940's and if they had a Jewish-sounding surname, to use that as a middle name and add another surname to hide their identity. Or they'd take on the surname of the family they were hiding out with. Why Coppennolle wouldn't have been used I don't know. So it could be possible he did enter an orphanage to hide him and when he entered it he was told his name was de Hedervary as he said.

(Please correct me if I'm wrong!) I thought RB said his mother had both her legs blown off during the war so I guess this would leave her incapable of caring for a child.

 

[brjakj]

(Please correct me if I'm wrong!) I thought RB said his mother had both her legs blown off during the war so I guess this would leave her incapable of caring for a child.

But wasn’t her occupation listed as a seamstress or sewing machinist type work? How would she do this with no legs? Sewing machines back then (before electric) had a pedal that you sort of pushed up and down to get the machine to work. Unless she did everything by hand, but that wouldn’t have been very productive.

 

[Zanzibar]

Yes the DdeH family leave the month before WDW leaves and only 1 day after WDW and IK baby is born.



I couldn't read that link you posted back then as you have to subscribe but I did find a bunch of info on that Greenie aboard the same Soviet-flagged cruise liner MS Shota Rustaveli from Sydney to Southampton and her mothers political activist dealings - there is a book about her life "Swimming Against the Tide".

Oh that’s funny, I didn’t have an account or anything and managed to read it.

 

[1965school]

wwwhhhhaaooo!

This article is stating accident in Tilburg -

29 March 1967
Le Soir p4
WW

18 yrs old - chaussee de gierle a Vosselare



Just did the maths - it cant be Willy Wonka, his age would be 28 in this year

 

[1965school]

If you take 1939 from 1967 is 28 years old

 

[mishy66]

I can't find dH anywhere either, unusual since he recycles names from someone else usually. Is it confirmed where his father is actually from?
At inquest he says his father's name is Hedervary as that's what he was told when he entered the orphanage as a little boy.
Going out on a bit of a limb and looking at how names are used here eg - coin auction the collection is listed as Maria Coppennolle de Froyennes, ie of Froyennes, little village a bit up the road from Tournai, has he been told his father is Desire David de Hedervary ie of Hungary? Unless he's aligning himself with Hungarian royalty or imagining he's a semi-famous painter. Bit out there I know, getting desperate!

Ah ok. So fastpiece was meaning deHedervary.
I actually dismissed old mate saying deH was his father as another lie. Because he said he entered the orphanage as W. Coppenolle.
I also took it that he is using the alias name DeHedervary, as a connection to Khuen-Héderváry in his fanciful mind.

Is there another family connection linking the name deH to David/ Coppenolle / Wouters? Apart from what willy wonka states??