Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #10

[BonnieB]

Yes I think so too. Certainly grabbed my attention though!

What did u think about:
12-02-1965 Le Soir, pg 4
The collision and injured wives?

That would explain the charge of involuntary injury on 5th Apr 1965

 

[mishy66]

Yes I think so too. Certainly grabbed my attention though!

What did u think about:
12-02-1965 Le Soir, pg 4
The collision and injured wives?

Yes that other article almost sealed what a lot of us think about who he is ! But it could still be on the table.....

That one you have up is interesting because the date aligns with other documents in that year of minor traffic offences.
The wife thing threw me but he does love women and his age would be 29 so very plausible.

I was thinking with all the articles on crashes that it is no wonder he says he doesn't drive!

 

[BonnieB]

Yes that other article almost sealed what a lot of us think about who he is ! But it could still be on the table.....

That one you have up is interesting because the date aligns with other documents in that year of minor traffic offences.
The wife thing threw me but he does love women and his age would be 29 so very plausible.

I was thinking with all the articles on crashes that it is no wonder he says he doesn't drive!

That accident would also align roughly with the alleged marriage to second wife Nicole R that supposedly lasted just a few weeks. Maybe there are a few grains of truth in his past.

 

[mishy66]

That accident would also align roughly with the alleged marriage to second wife Nicole R that supposedly lasted just a few weeks. Maybe there are a few grains of truth in his past.

oohhhhh yes maybe! That might be why it only lasted a few weeks - she got in a car with him

 

[ruby925]

I have transcribed part of the Inquest around that time to see if it would throw up any further information.

It's interesting that she immediately came up with Tunbridge Wells as a town near Burwash.

She also says she lived in Folkestone before she had children, not before she was married.

Also AC asks this:

And in the three years which is preceding the birth of your children that you lived in the United Kingdom, you did not work?

"Preceding the birth" means before the birth, but her answer relates to the time in Burwash, after the birth of the children.

I'm not sure whether AC was trying to ask about the time she was in Folkestone.

Day 6

2:26:23

AC: Now, have you yourself spent any significant time in the United Kingdom, Mrs deH?

DdH: Lived there for a while.

AC: How old were you when you lived in the UK?

DdH: How old was I? I was married.

AC: Right. What period of time?

DdH: Umm probably in the 80s

AC: Before you lived in Belgium and Luxembourg?

DdH: Probably the middle 80s.

AC: Doing the best you can and I appreciate it’s a long time ago, but I think we’ve established that from about 1980 or 1981 until about 1986 you lived in Europe, and yesterday you said you lived a few years in Luxembourg, perhaps a couple of years in Belgium, and had a short time down in France in the Bordeaux area.

DdH: Mhmm

AC: When were you living in the United Kingdom with your husband?

DdH: Uh.. would have been uh [cough] the early 80s or middle 80s.

AC: Does that mean that you left continental Europe and spent some time in the United Kingdom?

DdH: Yeah.

AC: In that period 1980 or thereabouts to 1986.

DdH: Yeah.

AC: And where did you live in the United Kingdom with your husband at that time?

DdH: Burwash, South East Sussex.

AC: South East Sussex?

AC: Could you just spell that name please?

DdH: B U R W A S H

AC: Thank you and what other towns is near that Location?

DdH: Hmm. Um. Uh. Tunbridge Wells.

AC: And any others that are near that location?

DdH: Well that was probably the biggest town next to it.

AC: And can you remember any other places you lived in in the United Kingdom other than that town?

DdH: Folkestone, but that was a long time…before I had kids.

AC: This was before the children came?

DdH: Yeah.

AC: And what were you doing in the UK were you working?
…

AC: And how long did you live in the United Kingdom.

DdH: About three years.

AC: I just want to get the chronology right, it doesn’t seem to marry up with what you said yesterday. You think you lived in the United Kingdom for about three years, and mid 80s is the best you can nominate.

DdH: Um imagine it was around then

AC: And in the three years which is preceding the birth of your children that you lived in the United Kingdom, you did not work?

DdH: No. I was at home with the kids [inaudible]

AC: And your husband Rick would return from time to time to Belgium or Luxembourg, was it? To attend to the furniture business?

DdH: Yes he’d go over and come back, he’d go over for a week and come back for five days and go back again.

2:41:07

I couldn't see how it was established that DDH was living in UK for three years before having the children, so I found those questions by AC (you have marked in bold) quite confusing. What did I miss there? Folkestone though is the perfect place to live..cross channel ferry to Calais.

 

[mishy66]

I have transcribed part of the Inquest around that time to see if it would throw up any further information.

It's interesting that she immediately came up with Tunbridge Wells as a town near Burwash.

She also says she lived in Folkestone before she had children, not before she was married.

Also AC asks this:

And in the three years which is preceding the birth of your children that you lived in the United Kingdom, you did not work?

"Preceding the birth" means before the birth, but her answer relates to the time in Burwash, after the birth of the children.

I'm not sure whether AC was trying to ask about the time she was in Folkestone.

Day 6

2:26:23

AC: Now, have you yourself spent any significant time in the United Kingdom, Mrs deH?

DdH: Lived there for a while.

AC: How old were you when you lived in the UK?

DdH: How old was I? I was married.

AC: Right. What period of time?

DdH: Umm probably in the 80s

AC: Before you lived in Belgium and Luxembourg?

DdH: Probably the middle 80s.

AC: Doing the best you can and I appreciate it’s a long time ago, but I think we’ve established that from about 1980 or 1981 until about 1986 you lived in Europe, and yesterday you said you lived a few years in Luxembourg, perhaps a couple of years in Belgium, and had a short time down in France in the Bordeaux area.

DdH: Mhmm

AC: When were you living in the United Kingdom with your husband?

DdH: Uh.. would have been uh [cough] the early 80s or middle 80s.

AC: Does that mean that you left continental Europe and spent some time in the United Kingdom?

DdH: Yeah.

AC: In that period 1980 or thereabouts to 1986.

DdH: Yeah.

AC: And where did you live in the United Kingdom with your husband at that time?

DdH: Burwash, South East Sussex.

AC: South East Sussex?

AC: Could you just spell that name please?

DdH: B U R W A S H

AC: Thank you and what other towns is near that Location?

DdH: Hmm. Um. Uh. Tunbridge Wells.

AC: And any others that are near that location?

DdH: Well that was probably the biggest town next to it.

AC: And can you remember any other places you lived in in the United Kingdom other than that town?

DdH: Folkestone, but that was a long time…before I had kids.

AC: This was before the children came?

DdH: Yeah.

AC: And what were you doing in the UK were you working?
…

AC: And how long did you live in the United Kingdom.

DdH: About three years.

AC: I just want to get the chronology right, it doesn’t seem to marry up with what you said yesterday. You think you lived in the United Kingdom for about three years, and mid 80s is the best you can nominate.

DdH: Um imagine it was around then

AC: And in the three years which is preceding the birth of your children that you lived in the United Kingdom, you did not work?

DdH: No. I was at home with the kids [inaudible]

AC: And your husband Rick would return from time to time to Belgium or Luxembourg, was it? To attend to the furniture business?

DdH: Yes he’d go over and come back, he’d go over for a week and come back for five days and go back again.

2:41:07

Such great work @Bibno
As I was reading it I could hear AC voice and his "Mr Bloooooooooooom! "

 

[BonnieB]

Can't seem to find any report on WW being "pulverised"

 

[Bibno]

I couldn't see how it was established that DDH was living in UK for three years before having the children, so I found those questions by AC (you have marked in bold) quite confusing. What did I miss there? Folkestone though is the perfect place to live..cross channel ferry to Calais.

I don't understand the question he's asking either, unless he's saying "The years *proceeding* the birth of your children"

Meaning the years following the birth of her children, but it seems (to me) to be unusual use of the word.

And anyway, he's saying the timeline doesn't work out properly, but I haven't even started to think about working that out.

Burwash much nicer, but very handy for mainland Europe.

I think AC knew already that she/they had lived in England been living in England at another point in time, in order to ask that question and she seemed reluctant to answer and did that dry cough.

I've updated the transcript to include a bit I omitted.

Day 6

2:26:23

AC: Now, have you yourself spent any significant time in the United Kingdom, Mrs deH?

DdH: Lived there for a while.

AC: How old were you when you lived in the UK?

DdH: How old was I? I was married.

AC: Right. What period of time?

DdH: Umm probably in the 80s

AC: Before you lived in Belgium and Luxembourg?

DdH: Probably the middle 80s.

AC: Doing the best you can and I appreciate it’s a long time ago, but I think we’ve established that from about 1980 or 1981 until about 1986 you lived in Europe, and yesterday you said you lived a few years in Luxembourg, perhaps a couple of years in Belgium, and had a short time down in France in the Bordeaux area.

DdH: Mhmm

AC: When were you living in the United Kingdom with your husband?

DdH: Uh.. would have been uh [cough] the early 80s or middle 80s.

AC: Does that mean that you left continental Europe and spent some time in the United Kingdom?

DdH: Yeah.

AC: In that period 1980 or thereabouts to 1986.

DdH: yeah.

AC: And where did you live in the United Kingdom with your husband at that time?

DdH: Burwash, South East Sussex.

AC: South East Sussex?

AC: Could you just spell that name please?

DdH: B U R W A S H

AC: Thank you and what other towns is near that Location?

DdH: Hmm. Um. Uh. Tunbridge Wells.

AC: And any others that are near that location?

DdH: Well that was probably the biggest town next to it.

AC: And can you remember any other places you lived in in the United Kingdom other than that town?

DdH: Folkestone, but that was a long time…before I had kids.

AC: This was before the children came?

DdH: Yeah.

AC: And what were you doing in the UK were you working?

DdH: No, I wasn’t.

AC: And was your husband, Rick, working?

DdH: No, well he was still doing things with his family in Europe.

AC: And were those things related to furniture or not?

DdH: Yeah, yeah. He was going to… He was just working with… then he’d just go backwards and forwards.

AC: And how long, at this point in time, did you live in the United Kingdom.

DdH: How long?

AC: Yes.

DdH: About three years.

AC: I just want to get the chronology right, it doesn’t seem to marry up with-

DdH: Well, yeah.

AC: What you said yesterday. You’ve got a firm belief today that you may have lived in the United Kingdom for about three years?

DdH: Yeah, poss...

AC: And you think, mid 80s is the best you can nominate.

DdH: Um imagine it was around then.

AC: And in the three years which is preceding the birth of your children that you lived in the UnitedKingdom, you did not work?

DdH: No. I was at home with the kids [inaudible]

AC: And your husband Rick would return from time to time to Belgium or Luxembourg, was it? To attend to the furniture business?

DdH: Yes he’d go over and come back, he’d go over for a week and come back for five days and go back again.

2:41:07

 

[Roseberry]

Can't seem to find any report on WW being "pulverised"

IMO, the whole story of the horse accident and his injuries has never sat right. The use of ungelded patrol horses, especially for riders with minimal training? The type of injuries described at inquest (D7, 0:48 on) - (bilateral compound fractures of lower limbs (tibia and fibula, requiring bone grafts), femur, ribs, head injuries ...) seem much more consistent with injuries commonly sustained in an MVA.
He might've fallen off his horse (due to inexperience? - training is only a few weeks) and ended up in hospital with some injuries that lead to a payout, but the catastrophic ones he describes? Whole other accident IMO.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I don't understand the question he's asking either, unless he's saying "The years *proceeding* the birth of your children"

Meaning the years following the birth of her children, but it seems (to me) to be unusual use of the word.

And anyway, he's saying the timeline doesn't work out properly, but I haven't even started to think about working that out.

Burwash much nicer, but very handy for mainland Europe.

I think AC knew already that she/they had lived in England been living in England at another point in time, in order to ask that question and she seemed reluctant to answer and did that dry cough.

I've updated the transcript to include a bit I omitted.

Day 6

2:26:23

AC: Now, have you yourself spent any significant time in the United Kingdom, Mrs deH?

DdH: Lived there for a while.

AC: How old were you when you lived in the UK?

DdH: How old was I? I was married.

AC: Right. What period of time?

DdH: Umm probably in the 80s

AC: Before you lived in Belgium and Luxembourg?

DdH: Probably the middle 80s.

AC: Doing the best you can and I appreciate it’s a long time ago, but I think we’ve established that from about 1980 or 1981 until about 1986 you lived in Europe, and yesterday you said you lived a few years in Luxembourg, perhaps a couple of years in Belgium, and had a short time down in France in the Bordeaux area.

DdH: Mhmm

AC: When were you living in the United Kingdom with your husband?

DdH: Uh.. would have been uh [cough] the early 80s or middle 80s.

AC: Does that mean that you left continental Europe and spent some time in the United Kingdom?

DdH: Yeah.

AC: In that period 1980 or thereabouts to 1986.

DdH: yeah.

AC: And where did you live in the United Kingdom with your husband at that time?

DdH: Burwash, South East Sussex.

AC: South East Sussex?

AC: Could you just spell that name please?

DdH: B U R W A S H

AC: Thank you and what other towns is near that Location?

DdH: Hmm. Um. Uh. Tunbridge Wells.

AC: And any others that are near that location?

DdH: Well that was probably the biggest town next to it.

AC: And can you remember any other places you lived in in the United Kingdom other than that town?

DdH: Folkestone, but that was a long time…before I had kids.

AC: This was before the children came?

DdH: Yeah.

AC: And what were you doing in the UK were you working?

DdH: No, I wasn’t.

AC: And was your husband, Rick, working?

DdH: No, well he was still doing things with his family in Europe.

AC: And were those things related to furniture or not?

DdH: Yeah, yeah. He was going to… He was just working with… then he’d just go backwards and forwards.

AC: And how long, at this point in time, did you live in the United Kingdom.

DdH: How long?

AC: Yes.

DdH: About three years.

AC: I just want to get the chronology right, it doesn’t seem to marry up with-

DdH: Well, yeah.

AC: What you said yesterday. You’ve got a firm belief today that you may have lived in the United Kingdom for about three years?

DdH: Yeah, poss...

AC: And you think, mid 80s is the best you can nominate.

DdH: Um imagine it was around then.

AC: And in the three years which is preceding the birth of your children that you lived in the UnitedKingdom, you did not work?

DdH: No. I was at home with the kids [inaudible]

AC: And your husband Rick would return from time to time to Belgium or Luxembourg, was it? To attend to the furniture business?

DdH: Yes he’d go over and come back, he’d go over for a week and come back for five days and go back again.

2:41:07

Thanks for that Bibno. That would have taken me all week to listen to and type! It's great having a transcript of that exchange. I seem to be having trouble with the NAA site at the moment but do we know when the W family left Australia before they returned on the Chusan?

 

[fastpiece]

Oh ok it is page 4. I think I saw your page 1 prior to the edit.
Will go have a look now.

So do you think FW born 7 June 1942 is the brother for WW and it's all a lie the story of DH is his real father. I don't believe the story of the orphanage. Also could it be WW impersonating FW? IMO

 

[brjakj]

Is this where it started? The dates seem for fit.

22/01/1957 - Le soir - pg 4

dodgy translation of relevant parts attached

 

[Carovb5]

I’ve been looking at the NAA files and on this and the previous thread, but i can’t find it…

Could somebody please share the pictures we have of women traveling with Mr aka? I saved a lot on my phone but not in a good way it seems

Thanks in advance! Trying to rule something out!

 

[brjakj]

So do you think FW born 7 June 1942 is the brother for WW and it's all a lie the story of DH is his real father. I don't believe the story of the orphanage. Also could it be WW impersonating FW? IMO

Yes I believe it was ww using fw details. Based on the info we have from these papers, I’m certain DD is his father. As for the orphanage, who knows, there could have been any number of reasons why he could have been sent there.
I’ve done quite a lot of research on the family tree and I cannot see dH anywhere so I still don’t know where that name came from.

 

[Bibno]

Thanks for that Bibno. That would have taken me all week to listen to and type! It's great having a transcript of that exchange. I seem to be having trouble with the NAA site at the moment but do we know when the W family left Australia before they returned on the Chusan?

I’m not sure, but I seem to remember somebody posted cards for the outward journey. I’ll have a look tomorrow.

Was there also a suggestion that a property in Tonbridge was associated with DW’s father? I may have imagined this!

Another thing that wasn’t clear to me was where JO described looking at a cottage to rent through a window. Did she mean looking at a cottage in an Estate Agent’s window, or looking through the windows of the actual cottage?

I wondered whether, if it were the latter, RB might have been looking through the windows of Mottynsden Lodge for old times sake!

 

[LouLouSleuth]

@CrossingToSafety these new dates have convinced me that DCOD - Desire Charles Octave David ( Don Juan) cannot possibly be Abel Wouters (as an alias.)
After driving everyone nuts with my theory on that I am sorry! The birth dates for both men are out by some 30 yrs !

well I, for one, have enjoyed your musings on the subject. Certainly a fascinating character and would make the basis for a great novel.

 

[fastpiece]

Yes I believe it was ww using fw details. Based on the info we have from these papers, I’m certain DD is his father. As for the orphanage, who knows, there could have been any number of reasons why he could have been sent there.
I’ve done quite a lot of research on the family tree and I cannot see dH anywhere so I still don’t know where that name came from.

I just think they were such a large family that they would help raise the children.

I note that MC and AW marriage it states "volunteer for army" and for MC "piqueuse en confection" which I think means dressmaker. RB sometimes tells the truth

I also found an Obituary for DD Journal de Tournai, 14/5/1943 pg 2.

 

[Zanzibar]

Thanks for that Bibno. That would have taken me all week to listen to and type! It's great having a transcript of that exchange. I seem to be having trouble with the NAA site at the moment but do we know when the W family left Australia before they returned on the Chusan?

DW, PW & DW all departed Sydney on the Shota Rustaveli on 19 Jan 1970. According to their passenger cards they were going for business for 18months.

Interestingly it was just shy of a month prior to WW returning to Europe on 15 Feb 1970 without his estranged wife and brand new baby who left separately three months later. This opens up a possibility they knew each other prior to leaving and WW wooing her prior to the return in the Chusan.

Also of interest, and I posted a link previously to a media article on this, that trip on the Shota Rustaveli had a link to KGB agents travelling and meeting with a couple and their daughter, the latter who became a greens senator and faced questions about the KGB connection during her time in office

 

[Laughing]

IMO, the whole story of the horse accident and his injuries has never sat right. The use of ungelded patrol horses, especially for riders with minimal training? The type of injuries described at inquest (D7, 0:48 on) - (bilateral compound fractures of lower limbs (tibia and fibula, requiring bone grafts), femur, ribs, head injuries ...) seem much more consistent with injuries commonly sustained in an MVA.
He might've fallen off his horse (due to inexperience? - training is only a few weeks) and ended up in hospital with some injuries that lead to a payout, but the catastrophic ones he describes? Whole other accident IMO.

Long ago I worked horses for a living -- can't imagine a riding mishap that would cause those injuries.

You're not surprised.

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Maybe his horsey injuries were actually caused by a car accident?