Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #10

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I am going to try and search the Burwash electoral rolls when I can next get into the East Sussex records office.

In the meantime I have been revisiting Marion’s postcards. On one of them (the cat shop one, attached, taken from an earlier WS thread) she says “because of all of my luggage I have decided to hire a little car and have been rather brave motoring carefully around this gorgeous place”. She also says “I’m shortly off to Amsterdam and the Orient Express on 15 July”.

Sorry if this has already been discussed as I am relatively new to WS but do we know why Marion was going to Amsterdam? Was it part of her planned European itinerary? Did she enter the UK from Heathrow or Gatwick airport? I don’t think the Orient Express went via Amsterdam and it seems like one of RB’s favourite places!

Hi Aldona. The Keep in Brighton have the Electoral Roll for the years 1983-86 held under R/C 68/9/1-8. Rural wards are in name order but being so small it should be possible to view everyone on the Electoral register that lived in or around Mottynsden Manor/Lodge.

I’ll answer your other questions separately

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I am going to try and search the Burwash electoral rolls when I can next get into the East Sussex records office.

In the meantime I have been revisiting Marion’s postcards. On one of them (the cat shop one, attached, taken from an earlier WS thread) she says “because of all of my luggage I have decided to hire a little car and have been rather brave motoring carefully around this gorgeous place”. She also says “I’m shortly off to Amsterdam and the Orient Express on 15 July”.

Sorry if this has already been discussed as I am relatively new to WS but do we know why Marion was going to Amsterdam? Was it part of her planned European itinerary? Did she enter the UK from Heathrow or Gatwick airport? I don’t think the Orient Express went via Amsterdam and it seems like one of RB’s favourite places!

Hi Aldona. The Keep in Brighton have the Electoral Roll for the years 1983-86 held under R/C 68/9/1-8. Rural wards are in name order but being so small it should be possible to view everyone on the Electoral register that lived in or around Mottynsden Manor/Lodge.

I’ll answer your other questions separately

I am going to try and search the Burwash electoral rolls when I can next get into the East Sussex records office.

In the meantime I have been revisiting Marion’s postcards. On one of them (the cat shop one, attached, taken from an earlier WS thread) she says “because of all of my luggage I have decided to hire a little car and have been rather brave motoring carefully around this gorgeous place”. She also says “I’m shortly off to Amsterdam and the Orient Express on 15 July”.

Sorry if this has already been discussed as I am relatively new to WS but do we know why Marion was going to Amsterdam? Was it part of her planned European itinerary? Did she enter the UK from Heathrow or Gatwick airport? I don’t think the Orient Express went via Amsterdam and it seems like one of RB’s favourite places!

Marion mentions Amsterdam & Holland a number of times on her postcards home and that she was “eagerly looking forward to Van Gogh’s Sunflowers and revisit Holland”. I believe this is reference to her honeymoon with her ex-husband Ray Barter.

Marion flew into London Heathrow “At Heathrow airport booked my big suitcase into the luggage hold”. Where have we heard this before?!! She then according to her letter home caught the train to Tunbridge Wells. Yet again as with JO the hire car is not picked up at the nearest transport hub.

I can’t be sure but I’m taking a punt that Marion would have done the JO reverse ferry trip from Harwich in Essex to Hook of Holland to get to Amsterdam. The Orient Express does not travel there. The newly discovered postcard from Marion said;

Delayed my orient trip till late August. First available re-booking, due to earlier rain and floods in Germany

 

[Laughing]

Somewhat OT, but I took the ferry from Hoek van Holland to Harwich back in the 1970's.

Wow, looks like I am old....

 

[Zanzibar]

Also agree that the "mad cow disease" thing is a lot of nonsense - although the first case was reported in 1986, it was not until 1990 that it really was a big news story with the government minister feeding his daughter a burger for the TV cameras to prove it was all safe. People in the 80s were not travelling to the continent for their shopping to avoid buying British beef. They might have been travelling to Calais for cheap booze and cigarettes though, the "booze cruise" was fairly common, due to high rates of tax on tobacco and alcohol in the UK comapred with France. People would take the 90 minute ferry to Calais, drive to one of the large out of town warehouses and stock up on loads of cheap French wine, beer and tobacco. Supposed to be for personal consumption only, but lots of people were doing it to sell (illegally) in the UK.

I lived in Ireland from Jan 85 to Christmas 87 and at some point during that time mad cow disease became a thing. We couldn’t get any fresh meat for weeks and had to use frozen or canned meat or product imported from outside the UK and Europe while they determined how widespread it was. Once they determined it was only the UK we could access fresh meat from Europe. Same happened with all fresh produce when the Chernobyl disaster happened. Even now I’m still restricted from donating blood because I was there at the time.

 

[Roseberry]

Marion mentions in a letter being in the East with way too much luggage. This letter is sent (from memory) a good week after leaving AU. So, seems possible she exited with luggage in SKorea and got onto a flight to Narita (no idea why she flew to SK first). Alternatively, RB could have met her in SK ( having stole some stationary from his hotel).

I suspect they traveled from there together & the luggage was stored in his name (oh honey let me take care of they for you).

I suspect he traveled with her by car through all the places mentioned in her postcards. Sounds like he wasn’t much of an adventurer or tour guide (JO), so Marion would have had plenty of time to write postcards along their journey.

At some point he leaves her someplace while he goes for “business.” I’d guess he takes the car (like with JO). Giving him time to steal her luggage, sell some of her jewelry etc., pretend he got pulverized ).

I actually don’t think he intended to leave JO or MB overseas. That could trigger some international collaboration of authorities, should one of the victims complain. He brings them back with the presence of we will return again overseas to start our new life. Finishes his scam and disappears.

Regarding the Barkley’s, listening to the podcast I don’t think she had an actual account there so much as was using it as an address (agent bank I believe they said). It’s not totally clear, but I don’t get the impression that money was only accessible from UK. The impression I took from some of the questioning at the inquest was wether Marion herself opened those colonial accounts and Barkley address OR (b/c of errors in her DOB, if someone else opened those perhaps on her behalf). Episode 13 of the podcast mentions her “possibly” having 2 prior Colonial accounts (did RB encourage her to close those). Could RB have helped her open new accounts (perhaps so he had knowledge of account numbers, where her money was stored)?

The fact that the money was left in her account makes me more suspicious about what ultimately happened to her. I can’t see him leaving money unstolen unless Marion had threatened to contact authorities (which seems she didn’t do) or Marion was killed (and he knew he needed to separate himself from her).

All just theory of course.

I'm leaning more towards the theory he did intend to abandon them overseas. Even though that would eventually invite the possibility of their return and investigation, he believes he's so adept at what he does that by the time anything is reported, he's faded quietly backwards into the bushes, Homer Simpson-style. And in a way he's right - look at how long it's taken to catch up with him, even after complaints were made, and look at the shame and humiliation the realisation also causes, which has prevented who knows how many others from coming forward, or perhaps continuing on at all.

I'm beginning to think more and more that our James Bond hasn't yet awarded himself the OO badge from the back of the weetbix box. ie There's no need, no 'license to kill' and I think probably if that happens it's only because things have gone completely pear-shaped and it's out of complete necessity.

Also leaning toward him not knowing about the UK account at all. He thought it was all in Oz or he would've gone back for it. Unless the worst had happened and he thought it much too risky. IMO

Someone a few posts back up very wisely said "Keep it simple, stupid" and I think it basically is.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

@Roseberry I really like all your recent posts. The scenario you present is simple, straightforward and matches with what we know about Marion and RB. I also really like your working backward from JO, as in RB's Round 2.

Specifically, I like your idea of RB choreographing Marion's stay in the UK but not being there himself, or if so, very little. You can imagine his ruse. "I know the UK well. You must stay at this inn, which I'll book for you. You'll have a lovely time, and I'll meet you when my business is finished." If there's one thing we know about RB, it's that he avoids being seen with his victims as much as possible. I think we've all tried to figure out why Marion stayed around Tunbridge Wells on her grand trip to the UK. In fact, you can almost hear her in the postcards trying so hard to make her UK visit sound worthy when in actuality it always sounded forced as if she were trying to justify where she was. Tunbridge Wells never made sense to me, but you, @Roseberry, have made it make sense.

I also agree that the suitcases became a moot point for RB once Marion handed over all the cash. But he perfected the suitcase routine for JO.

Now give us your scenario for Marion in AUS and the banks!

 

[Roseberry]

@Roseberry I really like all your recent posts. The scenario you present is simple, straightforward and matches with what we know about Marion and RB. I also really like your working backward from JO, as in RB's Round 2.

Specifically, I like your idea of RB choreographing Marion's stay in the UK but not being there himself, or if so, very little. You can imagine his ruse. "I know the UK well. You must stay at this inn, which I'll book for you. You'll have a lovely time, and I'll meet you when my business is finished." If there's one thing we know about RB, it's that he avoids being seen with his victims as much as possible. I think we've all tried to figure out why Marion stayed around Tunbridge Wells on her grand trip to the UK. In fact, you can almost hear her in the postcards trying so hard to make her UK visit sound worthy when in actuality it always sounded forced as if she were trying to justify where she was. Tunbridge Wells never made sense to me, but you, @Roseberry, have made it make sense.

I also agree that the suitcases became a moot point for RB once Marion handed over all the cash. But he perfected the suitcase routine for JO.

Now give us your scenario for Marion in AUS and the banks!

Thanks @MrsEmmaPeel. (Sorry if I haven't got that link correct!) Do you think the postcards sounded forced? I always thought she sounded excited and effusive about what she was seeing and doing. Happy to discuss. I'll have to go back and find them and re-read.
But yes, I believe she was travelling alone, on routes prescribed by him, and where she could be contacted by him, buying him time whilst he made his way back to clean out the accounts, as with JO.

As far as MB and the banks go - what were the exact dates, amounts and places of withdrawals, again? I think she did most, or all of them herself at this stage. It would've been too hard for her not to and then there's the evidence of that bank teller who insists it was her and who knew her. I think it's too messy and involved to have someone on the inside at the bank, they just had sloppy practice at the time - definitely no AML procedures back then! You can't even draw $100 out in cash now without providing ten types of ID, a DNA sample and your first-born child. It would have been too hard to impersonate her well enough in the local bank IMO, although someone might've tried initially with the smaller amounts and failed, which is why she was recalled. But I think it was probably all her, drawing down on the a/c in small lots initially to avoid penalties. For her dream home in Luxembourg ("I'm going to live a new life" as she told the teller - easy to convince someone else of that which you've wholeheartedly convinced yourself.

I could be all wrong and happy to be proven so - as someone said earlier - look at the evidence and keep it simple

 

[katwingbat]

I’m sorry if this is a stupid question, but is there any hard evidence that the cash was withdrawn in $5k lots over weeks, or is the evidence just from what the teller told Sally over the phone? (I seem to recall there was no bank records held from that time) ??

Also, I think Marion’s last phone call to Sally is interesting, because she stated that she’d be out of contact for a while (and was perhaps on her way back to Aus- at least her passport was)... but she obviously wasn’t being forced to do that by RB because he was already back in Aus. So she must have been in on the plan to come back secretly, unless he has an accomplice coercing her. From memory she also said very loving things to Sally, as if the conversation held more weight than usual.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

@Roseberry I'm not the one to supply accurate timelines, including the bank withdrawal one. I hope someone will answer you with one. I've tried to go back and search out the timelines I want, without much luck. I need to keep better tabs.

But I agree you about the the simplest solutions. Marion comes back expecting to stay no more than 8 days and then finds she must withdraw in increments. Following your original logic, Marion would be plunked someone safe -- not a motel where she would be questioned about later. Again, RB doesn't spend much time with her and definitely not during daylight. If Marion ever lost patience with him, that would have been it. Home in Australia, not in touch with anyone, withdrawing life savings, alone.

As for the postcards, I'm going on feeling and memory. Don't remember them verbatim, but thinking at the time I first read them-- what an odd trip. Something about her location and itinerary. I've visited UK many times. The only time I stuck in one location for weeks was on business. The other times I spent a few days here and there, moving freely on train or by car. After all, she was a tourist. And this is pre-airbnb. With all of UK at her doorstep, she chose a very odd place. In the 90s, I would have predicted Cornwall, the Cotswalds, The Lake District, London, or Oxford for long stays. UNLESS one had an agenda. . . .

 

[Roseberry]

I’m sorry if this is a stupid question, but is there any hard evidence that the cash was withdrawn in $5k lots over weeks, or is the evidence just from what the teller told Sally over the phone? (I seem to recall there was no bank records held from that time) ??

Also, I think Marion’s last phone call to Sally is interesting, because she stated that she’d be out of contact for a while (and was perhaps on her way back to Aus- at least her passport was)... but she obviously wasn’t being forced to do that by RB because he was already back in Aus. So she must have been in on the plan to come back secretly, unless he has an accomplice coercing her. From memory she also said very loving things to Sally, as if the conversation held more weight than usual.

I think they did officially confirm at the time about the $5k lots - either at the time or shortly after?

I think RB was drawing her back to Oz, because he was having trouble getting the money out. It's tempting to think our international man of mystery has accomplices flying in on other passports, but I suspect if he had an accomplice, they were much closer to home. I think too, he would've liked that FNMR passport back in Australia for another, unrelated side-hustle - there's some reason why he wanted it specifically in that surname and those initials.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

There's a new show on Netflix -- WORLD'S WORST ROOMMATES. 4 hair-raising stories of con-artists and evil-doing. I mention it because one of the stories is about a con-artist, liar, manipulator, who does attempt murder and almost succeeds. It made me reconsider the idea that a con-man doesn't kill. If they are threatened and desperate, they will kill. We have no idea how much RB had riding on the Marion con. He certainly was close enough to smell a killing. (pun intended)

 

[Estelle]

Somewhat OT, but I took the ferry from Hoek van Holland to Harwich back in the 1970's.

Wow, looks like I am old....

Then I am even older than you are! I caught this ferry from Harwich to the Hook of Holland in 1964. My father was in The Netherlands for business from Australia as he worked for Philips so my destination was Eindhoven. I was working in London so I caught a train from there to Harwich. Dad met me at the Hook of Holland where we caught a train to Eindhoven.

 

[vivienbee]

I have always predicted that MB and RB would have to have arrived together so that he could get one of her cases and documents in the same locker as his small bag and both would then have a key to it.

If they arrived separately, this would not have worked.

In my experience, if they were sharing a locker there would only have been one key, even if two people's belongings were inside. Presumably, if this were the case he would have found reasons to hang on to it.

Which is why I don't think he was ever in UK with her - he sent her there for supposed meet-up there later. He could never risk entry or exit with her where official documents were required unless it was via passportless-ferry

I think it's possible that he was there for some of the time but I've always said that the tone of the postcards, their frequency and general length give me the vibe that Marion was on her own for a lot of her stay. If you're there relaxing and travelling with your lover, you generally don't think to fire off more than a quick 'saw this postcard and thought of you' message to a few select friends and family members, at least not in the first couple of weeks. That's just MO and I'm sure that's different for everyone, but the general time it would take to write out all of the postcards, especially with their level of detail etc. seems unlikely to me if you're there spending time with someone you're head over heels for. It's more the behaviour of someone sitting in a coffee shop alone with a lot of time to spare.

 

[Roseberry]

@Roseberry I'm not the one to supply accurate timelines, including the bank withdrawal one. I hope someone will answer you with one. I've tried to go back and search out the timelines I want, without much luck. I need to keep better tabs.

But I agree you about the the simplest solutions. Marion comes back expecting to stay no more than 8 days and then finds she must withdraw in increments. Following your original logic, Marion would be plunked someone safe -- not a motel where she would be questioned about later. Again, RB doesn't spend much time with her and definitely not during daylight. If Marion ever lost patience with him, that would have been it. Home in Australia, not in touch with anyone, withdrawing life savings, alone.

As for the postcards, I'm going on feeling and memory. Don't remember them verbatim, but thinking at the time I first read them-- what an odd trip. Something about her location and itinerary. I've visited UK many times. The only time I stuck in one location for weeks was on business. The other times I spent a few days here and there, moving freely on train or by car. After all, she was a tourist. And this is pre-airbnb. With all of UK at her doorstep, she chose a very odd place. In the 90s, I would have predicted Cornwall, the Cotswalds, The Lake District, London, or Oxford for long stays. UNLESS one had an agenda. . . .

I agree, but I suspect that the first to lose their temper would not have been Marion.

Anyway, the speculation, supposition and scenarios are great for directing efforts toward where we should be looking, but you can pretty much guarantee that nothing we've discussed here would be news, or new information to those investigating.

That said, maybe we should now be focussing sleuthing efforts towards finding hard evidence on those things that were perhaps alluded to by Mr C, little things that are nevertheless hugely important such as that crucial initial lonely hearts ad.

Although we can't help out much with the forensic accounting side of things (bank accounts, etc), there is:

-More of the same type of lonely hearts ads (Bonus points for finding them in another name)
-MB's movements in UK (accommodation check-ins, etc)
-The coin collection trail (I've been down this a bit - truly a whole other world!)
-MB's movements back in Australia- Where did she stay? Think remote, cheap and not public.
-Finding out what happened to the artworks and other valuables.
-Finding out where that Clark Hunter FB post originated from. The one where the grammar suggests it was written by someone with English as a second language. It also, perhaps inadvertently, provides a big heads-up that we should be looking for a Natalia -that she would be going by Natalia Remekel.

 

[LEO123]

There's a new show on Netflix -- WORLD'S WORST ROOMMATES. 4 hair-raising stories of con-artists and evil-doing. I mention it because one of the stories is about a con-artist, liar, manipulator, who does attempt murder and almost succeeds. It made me reconsider the idea that a con-man doesn't kill. If they are threatened and desperate, they will kill. We have no idea how much RB had riding on the Marion con. He certainly was close enough to smell a killing. (pun intended)

JO (or GGB), mentioned she felt as though she had been drugged. She didn’t know how she ended up undressed in the bedroom. After hearing that, I’ve always had a nagging feeling he may have used something to calm Marion, and either used too much or she had a medical episode because of the drug used.

 

[StarrChance]

JO (or GGB), mentioned she felt as though she had been drugged. She didn’t know how she ended up undressed in the bedroom. After hearing that, I’ve always had a nagging feeling he may have used something to calm Marion, and either used too much or she had a medical episode because of the drug used.

Yes a definite theory of mine!

 

[BonnieB]

With regard to focusing on MB's time back in Aust, and possible demise, there is one point in JO's evidence that is prominent in my mind. She was questioned on four separate occasions about RB's alleged 20,000 acre property at Nymboida. She was asked did she know where it was located, how to spell it, did she ever go there and was there a house there. Now, I don't think for one minute that he ever owned a 20,000 acre property, but as noted in previous stories that he told his victims and the court, there is sometimes a tiny element of truth embedded in his lies. I think that he may have had access to a property, house or shed near Nymboida. To my way of thinking, and it is IMO, it might explain MB's last suspected whereabouts at Grafton on 13/9/97 when she used her Medicare card. I suspect MB may have been taken from Grafton to Nymboida or thereabouts (42kms). Perhaps he knew of an unoccupied house there; perhaps, as others have suggested, he gave MB a sedative when she became suspicious or confrontational and perhaps he was careless with the dosage. I just have a nagging suspicion that the answer to MB's whereabouts lies there. IMO

 

[Roseberry]

Yes a definite theory of mine!

Can anyone remember IK's COD, exactly?

 

[BonnieB]

Can anyone remember IK's COD, exactly?

Myocardial ischaemia which is a heart attack due to blockage of the arteries. I know of a case where an autopsy was requested as it occurred quite suddenly with no previous symptoms.

 

[Roseberry]

Myocardial ischaemia which is a heart attack due to blockage of the arteries. I know of a case where an autopsy was requested as it occurred quite suddenly with no previous symptoms.

Hmm that's interesting. Thanks for that.