Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #11

[BonnieB]

I can't find when RB purchased the car, does anyone know the date off-hand .... just being lazy
Marion's RACQ was cancelled on 7 August, just wondering how it fits in with this car purchase.

Car purchased 11/8/97 according to my timeline.

 

[ruby925]

We seem to be in two camps… Marion returned to Australia.. Marion Didn’t. We don’t have 100% answers but we have opinions..
I’m in the camp she returned…
What happened next I have no idea???

but I am curious what other sleuths think…
What camp are you in..?

I believe Marion returned, if her passenger arrival card had been filled out by someone else, I think it more likely it would have read single, returning permanently to Australia, thereby prompting less suspicion if anyone was looking for her. Married, returning for 8 days only, residence Luxembourg, home duties all would have been red flags...if the authorities had started looking for Marion of course.

 

[LEO123]

Ah, I apologise for using terminology that not everyone would know.

Yep, the gist of it is, that the most likely, straightforward, obvious, explanation with the least amount of people involved is usually 'the one'. Not always obviously. Criminals tend to act fast and involve as few people as possible, for various reasons.

For that, and other personal speculations, I find it impossible to believe Marion was in any way involved in withdrawing her money. I find that part of this situation almost impossible to get my head around except in the following ways -

1) A rogue member of bank staff who was aware Marion was going away for a long time (and knew she wasn't intending to touch her money) did this and possibly nothing even to do with Wonka whatsoever;

2) Wonka acted in collusion with a fairly senior member of bank staff (if so, probably a female);

3) Wonka had someone highly groomed to act as Marion herself and the bank staff fully believed it was Marion;

4) All the transactions were completed via online or phone banking and the money was not in fact removed in cash at all.

After reading your theories I thought yes, it could have been phone banking. But no it couldn’t be. They wouldn’t have been noted as withdrawals from “Byron Bay” if it was phone banking, daily direct debit authority, or online, as it would have shown up as being withdrawn from her branch where she opened the account. Someone would have had to visit Byron Bay branch for the account to show this detail as far as I know….

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Car purchased 11/8/97 according to my timeline.

Thanks BonnieB, h'mm, that is interesting. Marion's RACQ cancelled on a Thursday and RB purchases a car on the Monday.

 

[Estelle]

Yes, IMO it seems rather extreme to sell a newly built home to look after a sick 'uncle'.
Something else that causes my 'suspicious nose' to twitch is RB corresponding with MC while in living in Tassie. According to her testimony, their affair ended years before in Luxembourg when he admitted to being married.
I also noted how proudly he proclaimed MC was a publisher and wondered who is actually running Renov Pubs. I have a feeling that all is not as it seems there.

It seems rather extreme to sell a newly built home to look after a sick 'uncle'.
It seems rather extreme to me too. I wonder if the title deeds were put in one of his aliases and they let it instead of selling it so they could receive the rent assistance and pensions. I even often wonder if he had disability pensions coming into him in several of his aliases into different bank accounts using different addresses!!! as I am so suspicious of him.

RB corresponding with MC while in living in Tassie. According to her testimony, their affair ended years before in Luxembourg when he admitted to being married.
My impression of that story was that he made it up or if he did send that postcard, he was "stalking" MC by mail when she had told him she wanted nothing more to do with him.

I also noted how proudly he proclaimed MC was a publisher and wondered who is actually running Renov Pubs. I have a feeling that all is not as it seems there.
You could be right, Bonnie, but I have had the feeling that MC is a sincere person so far and would not want anything to do with RB these days.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

We seem to be in two camps… Marion returned to Australia.. Marion Didn’t. We don’t have 100% answers but we have opinions..
I’m in the camp she returned…
What happened next I have no idea???

but I am curious what other sleuths think…
What camp are you in..?

I initially believed she did not return from Europe and that there was a female accomplice but following on from the inquests etc it seems more likely she did return. Why the silence after July 97 can probably only be fully answered by a few individuals.

 

[BonnieB]

It seems rather extreme to sell a newly built home to look after a sick 'uncle'.
It seems rather extreme to me too. I wonder if the title deeds were put in one of his aliases and they let it instead of selling it so they could receive the rent assistance and pensions. I even often wonder if he had disability pensions coming into him in several of his aliases into different bank accounts using different addresses!!! as I am so suspicious of him.

RB corresponding with MC while in living in Tassie. According to her testimony, their affair ended years before in Luxembourg when he admitted to being married.
My impression of that story was that he made it up or if he did send that postcard, he was "stalking" MC by mail when she had told him she wanted nothing more to do with him.

I also noted how proudly he proclaimed MC was a publisher and wondered who is actually running Renov Pubs. I have a feeling that all is not as it seems there.
You could be right, Bonnie, but I have had the feeling that MC is a sincere person so far and would not want anything to do with RB these days.

Ha ha, perhaps you're right Estelle, I'm just so suspicious of everything he says and does. He definitely seems to have an obsession with MC though. I'll bet he studied and researched every little thing about FNR as part of that obsession. No wonder he was able to convince Marion so easily; in his twisted mind, he WAS him.
I'm just desperate for someone to find a provable link between him and Marion so he can be charged and convicted. Marion's furniture, the paintings, where Marion stayed etc. Someone out there MUST know something.

 

[Jay_Tec]

I'm in the camp that Marion didn't return.

However, if she did, this would have required a very extreme brainwashing situation.

Predatory abusers, con artists, and narcissists can sometimes create what is known as 'the cult of two'. All the usual techniques of a cult apply but with only two people - the predator and the victim. A form of hypnotic trance state is induced in the victim using methods such as fear of consequences on the one hand and the lure of a promise on the other (future faking). At that point, the victim must be 100% disconnected from the outside world with no contact whatsoever to reality, including people and all forms of media. They must put all their faith and belief into the cult leader and have absolute compliance and have lost all form of perspective, critical analysis, cynicism, and rationale.

Were that to be the case, I can't imagine how Wonka could get Marion into such a deep trance state so quickly after spending little to no time with her in the UK and how that could be maintained whilst she took flights etc. Usually it takes a sustained period of isolation / captivity (even if voluntary) whereby the victim has had zero contact with the outside world whatsoever and developed a profound terror and paranoid suspicion of others.

Sometimes men (I have yet to hear of a woman doing it) who create these mini-cults have two or three other victims that they treat like a close knit family unit, often held in isolation in one house, with everyone doing what they're told. That dynamic can bring the newcomer into the fold more quickly, as can things such as being drugged.

 

[Jay_Tec]

Ha ha, perhaps you're right Estelle, I'm just so suspicious of everything he says and does. He definitely seems to have an obsession with MC though. I'll bet he studied and researched every little thing about FNR as part of that obsession. No wonder he was able to convince Marion so easily; in his twisted mind, he WAS him.
I'm just desperate for someone to find a provable link between him and Marion so he can be charged and convicted. Marion's furniture, the paintings, where Marion stayed etc. Someone out there MUST know something.

Obsessive stalking can be a feature of Narcissistic personality disorder. So, despite their grandiose delusions and contempt for others, Narcs can easily be besotted with people they admire. They think hierarchically. Very few people make it to the 'above' stance of course but if / when they do, they reach all consuming godlike admiration status. Hence potential stalking and also why oddly a Narc will gush and enthuse about someone when they're usually contemptuous of everyone.

 

[Jay_Tec]

After reading your theories I thought yes, it could have been phone banking. But no it couldn’t be. They wouldn’t have been noted as withdrawals from “Byron Bay” if it was phone banking, daily direct debit authority, or online, as it would have shown up as being withdrawn from her branch where she opened the account. Someone would have had to visit Byron Bay branch for the account to show this detail as far as I know….

I'm so baffled by this. Despite that I live in a huge city, there is no way I could make daily cash withdrawals at a bank. Firstly the bank like to have a little notice to ensure they have cash ready to dispense. Secondly they would want to do plenty of ID checking. Then more for all manner of reasons, not least to ensure this person is safe to walk down the street, and isn't doing something reckless or strange. Then just to say hey perhaps there's a product or service we can offer you that is a better way of going about this transaction. Even if I took a chunk of cash on day one, by day two or three, the manager is going to say please can we have a chat and see if you need financial advice. Also that would be seriously flaring the radar of what the heck is going on here.

Maybe back in the 90s one could say that they are cash purchasing a high value large item such a second hand yacht or something but wouldn't a bank manager be flagging up to a customer that such transactions can go wrong ?

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Camp RETURN, here.

1. Sally's belief the card matches Marion's handwriting.
2. The card's narrative: housewife, Luxembourg, short return.
3. The pattern of enthralled behavior and Marion's secrecy.
4. Wonka's ability to convince enthralled women of schemes and protocols, ie how they needed to withdraw the money and get it to Europe for new life. He seems to have excelled at convincing people -- not just woman-- that he was a legit business guy. At least for a time being.
5. Withdrawals - yes. At least most of them. Marion could have put all her money in a joint bank account that Wonka later removed.
6. When Marion became problematic or suspicious, Wonka killed her.

 

[Carovb5]

For now i’m camp no return. More based on a feeling i get after hearing all. But i find all of your thoughts very interesting and don’t rule anything out! In this case anything is possible.

I’m trying to rule a thought/possibility out but therefor i’m still trying to find the picture we had of the woman who travelled with mister aka (when they travelled with 3).
Does anyone have that file or link to share please? I still can’t find it back in the tracks & lost it A BIG thanks in advance!

 

[Meligator]

Why do you think RB admitting knowing MB? Yes the police had evidence he placed the Lennox Head ad & that he traveled overseas within a few days of MB. But none of that proves he knew her. He could have just said that he placed the ad, but never met Marion and his travel dates are just a coincidence. He’s completely fine saying he knows nothing about Renov Pubs (despite it being in several of his names) & various other ridiculous lies. The absurdity of the lie doesn’t seem to bother him. So why not lie about Marion? And why add extraneous details like holding her belongings and visiting her school? Makes me think there is more solid evidence of their connection. Evidence that he needed to provide an excuse for (e.g., yes someone saw me with that art, but I was just storing it for a couple days….something like that).

I think the rest of the inquest could be quite jaw dropping—although I still don’t know if it will lead to finding Marion.

I do think Pandora’s box is opened and Blum is toast

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Good point, @Meligator. Originally I suspected it had to do with the Remakel name. If they found a Remakel driver's license while doing a data search, and they had the personal ad (thanks to a sleuther) which matched up, then odds are, Florabella Remakel had to be connected in some way. AND when they found the Remakel name, connected it to Wonka, and did their research, it doesn't take long to find out Wonka's con artist, interpol and criminal past. I mean, people here did it (brilliantly), with half the resources of law enforcement. And if L. E. go in bluffing on how much they have on him and Wonka's a big talker, then Bob's Your Uncle.

 

[ruby925]

.

Why do you think RB admitting knowing MB? Yes the police had evidence he placed the Lennox Head ad & that he traveled overseas within a few days of MB. But none of that proves he knew her. He could have just said that he placed the ad, but never met Marion and his travel dates are just a coincidence. He’s completely fine saying he knows nothing about Renov Pubs (despite it being in several of his names) & various other ridiculous lies. The absurdity of the lie doesn’t seem to bother him. So why not lie about Marion? And why add extraneous details like holding her belongings and visiting her school? Makes me think there is more solid evidence of their connection. Evidence that he needed to provide an excuse for (e.g., yes someone saw me with that art, but I was just storing it for a couple days….something like that).

I think the rest of the inquest could be quite jaw dropping—although I still don’t know if it will lead to finding Marion.

I do think Pandora’s box is opened and Blum is toast

I hope so...but surely RB has had access to all those volumes of documents that have been constantly referred to by AC at the inquest? Remember when RB said at the start of his evidence that the police had told him MB may have gone off to a cult? He obviously felt it was in his interest to admit knowing MB, placing the ad etc, but has he also been able to see that, in those documents, there is no tangible evidence to link him to her disappearance?

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Why do you think RB admitting knowing MB? Yes the police had evidence he placed the Lennox Head ad & that he traveled overseas within a few days of MB. But none of that proves he knew her. He could have just said that he placed the ad, but never met Marion and his travel dates are just a coincidence. He’s completely fine saying he knows nothing about Renov Pubs (despite it being in several of his names) & various other ridiculous lies. The absurdity of the lie doesn’t seem to bother him. So why not lie about Marion? And why add extraneous details like holding her belongings and visiting her school? Makes me think there is more solid evidence of their connection. Evidence that he needed to provide an excuse for (e.g., yes someone saw me with that art, but I was just storing it for a couple days….something like that).

I think the rest of the inquest could be quite jaw dropping—although I still don’t know if it will lead to finding Marion.

I do think Pandora’s box is opened and Blum is toast

100% he would deny ever knowing her… unless he knows that police have more information..

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

.

I hope so...but surely RB has had access to all those volumes of documents that have been constantly referred to by AC at the inquest? Remember when RB said at the start of his evidence that the police had told him MB may have gone off to a cult? He obviously felt it was in his interest to admit knowing MB, placing the ad etc, but has he also been able to see that, in those documents, there is no tangible evidence to link him to her disappearance?

The cult to me just proved he listened to the podcast

 

[bettyboop]

Camp Never Returned and is somewhere in England,France,Luxembourgh,or anyplace unfortunately
deceased. JMO MOO

 

[BonnieB]

The cult to me just proved he listened to the podcast

Of course he listened to the podcast...e v e r y word of it and probably more than once. Of course he read media reports. He would have studied the brief of evidence, page after page, and prepared his story accordingly. I am not fooled for one minute by his dithery old man act. He may be aging and he may well have health problems BUT he is a narcissistic, lying con-man to the bone. IMO.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

I'm in the camp that Marion didn't return.

However, if she did, this would have required a very extreme brainwashing situation.

Predatory abusers, con artists, and narcissists can sometimes create what is known as 'the cult of two'. All the usual techniques of a cult apply but with only two people - the predator and the victim. A form of hypnotic trance state is induced in the victim using methods such as fear of consequences on the one hand and the lure of a promise on the other (future faking). At that point, the victim must be 100% disconnected from the outside world with no contact whatsoever to reality, including people and all forms of media. They must put all their faith and belief into the cult leader and have absolute compliance and have lost all form of perspective, critical analysis, cynicism, and rationale.

Were that to be the case, I can't imagine how Wonka could get Marion into such a deep trance state so quickly after spending little to no time with her in the UK and how that could be maintained whilst she took flights etc. Usually it takes a sustained period of isolation / captivity (even if voluntary) whereby the victim has had zero contact with the outside world whatsoever and developed a profound terror and paranoid suspicion of others.

Sometimes men (I have yet to hear of a woman doing it) who create these mini-cults have two or three other victims that they treat like a close knit family unit, often held in isolation in one house, with everyone doing what they're told. That dynamic can bring the newcomer into the fold more quickly, as can things such as being drugged.

I don’t think it’s as elaborate as hypnotic trance the cult of two.
I think he’s a pure narcissist. Love bombed a vulnerable woman, to the point that she believed him, trusted him and most likely loved him. Narcissists are a breed of their own. Predictable yet unpredictable all at the same time. When the love bombing stops the victim is empty worthless alone.. and the only thing that eases that is the narcissist.. it draws the victim back… and a bit of love bombing again confirms to the victim - oh they do love me, I feel better now.. and the cycle continues..

The cycle of love/abuse/love begins to increase.. the victim begins to doubt themselves not the narcissist.

And that is when the narcissist has complete control.. the victim is now no longer functioning without the narcissist.

They will do whatever is asked… to keep the peace, to try and get back the initial love bomb feeling, and…..through fear .. of what the narcissist will do if they don’t comply.

To anyone who has been involved with a narcissist on any level and managed to escape the toxic relationship most are amazed at the control the person once had over them, and many can’t even explain how it got to that stage.