Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[poppypopcorn]

Within the EU, travel was border-free in the 90s. You could drive from France into Belgium or Belgium into the Netherlands without stopping. No passport checks. This is known as the Schengen area.

The UK was never part of this agreement, there were always border checks on people coming into the UK from the EU. But I travelled extensively from the UK to other parts of Europe and there were very few checks. They often didn't even LOOK at your passport, you just held up the maroon EU passport and they waved you through. EU nationals similarly didn't even need a passport to enter the UK, most other EU countries had some form of national identity card and people regularly used those instead - which was all perfectly legal and above board.

RB - the man of many names and many false documents - quite possibly did have a Belgian/French/Luxembourg ID card. He may well have been entitled to one as a Belgian born, even one permanently resident in Australia. In my opinion it would have been extremely easy for him and Marion to travel back and forward across the channel to Belgium/France without any proper checks. In the 90s the Border Force were mainly concerned with drug smugglers using ferries to import drugs to the UK - not interested in a middle aged couple with hardly any luggage boarding as foot passengers.

 

[Estelle]

I meant this in reference to the post about them getting married in Narita?

Yes that theory would not have worked.

 

[centred]

I agree. But the story she told about meeting him on the Chusan in 1970 was a definite lie according to my timeline. So from then on, I didn't trust she was telling the truth all the time.

Mr C broached the contradiction of being in 2 places at once and sort of excepted the confusion maybe the year it was intended to leave was DEC 1970 but it left a bit later in Jan 1971 , hence the mix up about the apparent certainty by them both > I am assuming if it matters they would check it officially , as it is that explanation fits the time line so i gather they will leave the matter alone in the big scheme of things

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Main aliases
Pink: Legal name / passport
Black: Alias only

1969 – Willy Wouters (passport, arrived in Aus)
1976 – Frederick David de Hedervary (passport, 1976 Aus citizenship name)
1976-77 – Roger Lauzoney/Lazoney (alias only or pass? convicted in Lux with FDdH passport on him)
1985 – Chaim Frederick David Dehedervary (NSW license, alias only)
24 Aug 88 – Fernand Remakel (QLD license, alias only)
1992 – Richard Lloyd Westbury (passport)
2 Oct 1992 – FR resissued (QLD license, alias only)
10 Dec 94 – FN Remakel (Le Courrier rencontres, alias only)
Jun-Jul 97 – Richard Lloyd Westbury (passport, travel with Marion)
Late 90s – Hedervary (alias only, encounter with GGB)
1999 – Ric West (alias only)
Nov 1999 – Rich Richard (change by deed poll, passport, travel with JO)
May 2002 – Frederick David de Hedervary (alias only or official name change?)
mid 2000’s – Willy David Coppenolle (CBA, alias only)
Current – Ric Blum (change by deed poll, possibly when podcast came out)

 

[ikarka]

Mr C broached the contradiction of being in 2 places at once and sort of excepted the confusion maybe the year it was intended to leave was DEC 1970 but it left a bit later in Jan 1971 , hence the mix up about the apparent certainty by them both > I am assuming if it matters they would check it officially , as it is that explanation fits the time line so i gather they will leave the matter alone in the big scheme of things

I think they really stuffed up with the Chusan story.
We've already established it couldn't be 1970 because was reporting the birth of his child with IK then.
It couldn't be 1971 because that year the Chusan sailed from the US to Australia, not the UK.
It couldn't be 1972 because he was imprisoned then.

Then of course there's the other issue which they're not listed on any of the passenger lists from those journeys, either.

The only question in my mind is why it is so important they lie about that date and ship specifically.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

What was Sally's maiden name? I don't think Marion was married when Sally was born, was she?

Brown
1967 - 1969 Married/divorced professional football player Johnny Warren
1973 - 1974 Sally Leydon (nee Brown) and Owen Brown are born
1977 - 1979 Married/divorced Stuart Brown
1985 - 1990 Married/divorced Ray Barter

 

[centred]

You are correct. IMO RB could have had several different passports in different names with different expiry dates for five or ten years each overlapping so he would have had a choice of which one to use at any time.

Passports can last up to 10 years and mine sits in a draw , I did lose one once and did not report it as i was unaware it was misplaced in a move until it relapsed , so yes i can see him using them for different purposes back then especially , I am doubting not as easy now but who knows as they are sold willy nilly apparently . Anyway it is possible they married somewhere as a fake marriage , thats not hard to do

 

[Zanzibar]

It

I thought we had put the issue to bed , i admit some business sectors had them , i am not saying they were not in existence ( I even have a vintage transparent Apple " ) They were not the "norm " in households as i said and my comment was in a certain context . And a business was not dependent on them . So much has changed re technology and practices . I remember being able to walk into a bank with my checque in a contract business and the bank gave me cash , I paid all my employees in cash ,we all did it and some still do i guess in a more sophisticated way and none of it is illegal I could go on but very different times and only the beginning for Australia in the timeline of advances which continue to accelerate . so i still maintain they were no where near the norm

And please no one tag me about the issue again ..many have kept the discussion going

I am not prepared to eat my hat tho

It’s a bit hard to make a statement and not expect responses ina forum such as this. To put it to bed firmly and with fact rather than personal experience, the 1996 Census recorded 31% of Australian households frequently using a computer.

In the context of this case it becomes plausible the DhB household had a computer at the time, especially since they had school aged children at home.

 

[Estelle]

Main aliases
Pink: Legal name / passport
Black: Alias only

1969 – Willy Wouters (passport, arrived in Aus)
1976 – Frederick David de Hedervary (passport, 1976 Aus citizenship name)
1976-77 – Roger Lauzoney/Lazoney (alias only or pass? convicted in Lux with FDdH passport on him)
1985 – Chaim Frederick David Dehedervary (NSW license, alias only)
24 Aug 88 – Fernand Remakel (QLD license, alias only)
1992 – Richard Lloyd Westbury (passport)
2 Oct 1992 – FR resissued (QLD license, alias only)
10 Dec 94 – FN Remakel (Le Courrier rencontres, alias only)
Jun-Jul 97 – Richard Lloyd Westbury (passport, travel with Marion)
Late 90s – Hedervary (alias only, encounter with GGB)
1999 – Ric West (alias only)
Nov 1999 – Rich Richard (change by deed poll, passport, travel with JO)
May 2002 – Frederick David de Hedervary (alias only or official name change?)
mid 2000’s – Willy David Coppenolle (CBA, alias only)
Current – Ric Blum (change by deed poll, possibly when podcast came out)

So are you trying to point out here that RB never had any passports which overlapped in their currency which could be the case here?

 

[mishy66]

Sorry, I can't be sure. It was on one of the closed threads (and I read it before I became a member). I was hoping it might ring a bell with whoever here who was doing these searches on companies. Alternatively if someone can remember which thread contained these searches I can go back and look?

It might be one of these here maybe?
Sorry I cant remember where or who linked it. I just saved it at some point when I found it.
There is so much info so probs the wrong ones you mean but anyways...

De Hedervary F. - Belgium
Bien sur Realo
BLUM, RIC - BE 0858.473.358 | Informations sur la société et données financières | Bizzy
Gegevens van de geregistreerde entiteit | KBO Public Search

 

[Deleted member 249471]

But if 'Marion ships her belongings to RB's house'
isn't this inconsistent with 'she'll never find him
upon her return because he isn't really FR.'
Shouldn't there be a wrinkle where he ships her
belongings (in AUS) to somewhere else like a
rented apartment (under a false name) which he
empties and vacates when he returns to AUS and
she is still overseas?

Also, I don't see the car is needed for the bank
visits (no bank teller is going to wander outside
to watch someone driving away) anyway, why
park near the bank at all? Is this the same car that
was brought for the daughter? The daughter car,
I thought, was just a car for her and for RB to
have a spare car (yes, possibly to use in scams)
but I would have thought RB would put that car
in the daughters name so he wouldn't have to
declare it as his or his wife's asset on any
Centrelink(=social security) claim form.

Any info on that car(s)? (which if it/they still
exist, the police will hopefully find and luminol
the heck out of the inside spaces of it).

Yes, plenty about the theory doesn't make sense
But, she may not have gone to his house, simply put her belongings in a removalist truck that he arranged prior, and gave the address directly to them. And also, the de Hedervary's moved house in late 1997:

Late 1996, the de Hedervary's moved from Ballina to Wollongbar, it's unclear why.
Stayed for almost a year. By late 1997, they were gone and back in Ballina.

Only info I have on car:
11 Aug 1997 bought second car, Mitsibishi Magna
Nov 1997 Sold 3 months later

 

[Estelle]

I think they really stuffed up with the Chusan story.
We've already established it couldn't be 1970 because was reporting the birth of his child with IK then.
It couldn't be 1971 because that year the Chusan sailed from the US to Australia, not the UK.
It couldn't be 1972 because he was imprisoned then.

Then of course there's the other issue which they're not listed on any of the passenger lists from those journeys, either.

The only question in my mind is why it is so important they lie about that date and ship specifically.

I can only guess that they could have told their children over the years
1. That's how they met as it sounds romantic
2. It explains their daughter's second name, "Chusan".
3. It covers for when he was married to Ilona so it sounds as if he'd never been married before.

But then DdH felt she had to pretend that she had been writing to him in prison all those years!

I bet that shocked their children! IMO it was an unnecessary lie and they both told it. RB even added that he actually met DdH and her parents at the Hilton Hotel in Southampton even before they embarked on the ship!

 

[gymtonic]

It might be one of these here maybe?
Sorry I cant remember where or who linked it. I just saved it at some point when I found it.
There is so much info so probs the wrong ones you mean but anyways...

De Hedervary F. - Belgium
Bien sur Realo
BLUM, RIC - BE 0858.473.358 | Informations sur la société et données financières | Bizzy
Gegevens van de geregistreerde entiteit | KBO Public Search

I posted another reply earlier when I found it. The company was Cordemans et Cie (Eng: Cordemans and Co) and the person was Dorothea Masloska. The link was that the company was at the same address as a company associated with Ric Blum so may not be anything at all.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

So are you trying to point out here that RB never had any passports which overlapped in their currency which seems to be the case here?

Not on purpose But it looks that way.

Out of all the records we found online, and all we've learned at inquest, no-one's mentioned multiple concurrent passports in different names. Multiple aliases, yes. Multiple passports, no.

Out of all the aliases inquest revealed, only the pink names are associated with passports.

It could mean police are keeping info to themselves (likely).
Or RB has even more concurrent passport in names police don't know about yet (also likely).

 

[ruby925]

Money withdrawal scenarios…

1. Marion withdrew the daily 5k in an area where she wouldn’t bump into anyone she might know. Either under the spell still of RB or after realising she was being scammed.
   
   
2. Marion withdrew the final 80k with the same possibilities.
   
   
3. Marion withdrew the money under duress
   
   
4. Marion did not withdraw any money herself, someone was impersonating her.
   

As far as is known, Marion did not try to retrieve the available funds from UK Barclays, as this was sent back to Australia when dormant .


The story of Marion talking about Sally not depositing the proceeds from the car sale could be genuine (Marion wanting to close the Barter accounts once that money was in the account and not cause queries) or a ploy to give credence to the impersonator. Or...this story was woven in somehow at a later date with the Salvation Army/Missing Persons enquiries.

If Marion was still with RB and withdrawing the money, we know RB says he favours cash rather than a bank account. If Marion had rumbled the scam, surely she would have opened another bank account, either in the Barter name, presuming she had ID, or in the new name Remakel, or a safety deposit envelope/box somewhere. It makes sense to avoid leaving a trail in all scenarios, but I can’t think Marion would have run around with so much cash.

 

[BonnieB]

I have some questions...
Money started being withdrawn Aug-Sept.
They were $5K daily withdrawals in Byron for 3.5 weeks, and 3 days in the middle in Burleigh Heads.
So do you think she was making these withdrawals?
Byron wasn't her regular branch (Ashmore was), and is 1-1.5 hrs drive from where she used to live.
Where was she staying while in Byron?
And why would she withdraw her money there, for two whole months before she confronted him?
Where was she storing all these withdrawals and what was she planning to do with is?

IMO He had known Marion on and off since she answered his ad in 1995, during which time he gained her confidence and learned much about her life. He waited until she was at her most vulnerable (the trouble at her school) and pounced. IMO she became suspicious and confronted him before the money was withdrawn. Marion was an intelligent woman and had plenty of time on the plane to mull over all his inconsistencies and lies. I think all his romantic BS that sucked her in during the grooming process began to run thin. Perhaps it just took one more lie for her to realize she had been conned. I believe she was probably killed by accident, during that confrontation, perhaps in a struggle. I don't think pre-meditated murder was his MO but he may have struck her in anger especially if Marion threatened to expose him. After hurriedly buying the car, he disposed of her body and the money was withdrawn by someone else, probably DdH. They would have access to her clothes, jewellery, documents etc. He then placed the cash in a safe deposit box at Ballina bank which he held for 13 days. Loose ends and evidence all tidied up, he sold the car in case there was any forensic evidence of Marion remaining in the vehicle. There was very little to tie him to Marion. They weren't seen together during the grooming period in Southport (except when Sally saw 'someone' in Marion's car) and they travelled separately. The only thing was the surname, Remakel. So he conveniently "lost" his driver's license years before. If not for Sally's persistence, it would have been the perfect crime!

 

[centred]

It

It’s a bit hard to make a statement and not expect responses ina forum such as this. To put it to bed firmly and with fact rather than personal experience, the 1996 Census recorded 31% of Australian households frequently using a computer.

In the context of this case it becomes plausible the DhB household had a computer at the time, especially since they had school aged children at home.

Oh please ... i lived the 90 s as i said many others are having convos about it , as i said I personally in one of my posts many hours ago i put it to bed as far as any more comment with my personal experience so i asked nicely to please do not tag me again as it also against TOS rules to argue opinions , I am not going to entertain a debate on personal experience and of the fact that the majority of house holds not having one whether they could afford one or not and that was in context and as i said I would not eat my hat over it as someone else said in humor ...so i put it to bed .

 

[Estelle]

Passports can last up to 10 years and mine sits in a draw , I did lose one once and did not report it as i was unaware it was misplaced in a move until it relapsed , so yes i can see him using them for different purposes back then especially , I am doubting not as easy now but who knows as they are sold willy nilly apparently . Anyway it is possible they married somewhere as a fake marriage , thats not hard to do

Several of us have tried to work out if RB and MR married at some stage hence a theory was maybe at Narita on the way over but Ruby has debunked that theory tonight. Did they employ a Marriage Celebrant somewhere to conduct a marriage ceremony and Marion assumed she was married but RB did not submit the papers. I noticed when she left, Marion put on her Departure card that she was "divorced" and came back putting "married".

I don't see Marion as the type who would lie on a document that she was married when she was not. Then also putting "housewife" and "Luxembourg" was perhaps her fantasy but there is no evidence she has ever been there as she seemed to have spent all her time in England. IMO there was no need to lie. It sounds to me as if that was RB's idea and she was so "bewitched" by him doing naked belly dances in their hotel room for her that she put down what he told her to do.

I have always suspected that he might have collected a few Australian Arrivals cards in his past travels and coerced Marion to fill one out before he left the UK as Sally thinks it is Marion's handwriting. The flight no seems to have been added later in different handwriting using a different pen. Also the tick against Married is larger than the other ticks. I am still open to suspecting that RB forged it and gave it to DdH to use. This is just one of the reasons I doubt it was Marion on that flight home.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

IMO He had known Marion on and off since she answered his ad in 1995, during which time he gained her confidence and learned much about her life. He waited until she was at her most vulnerable (the trouble at her school) and pounced. IMO she became suspicious and confronted him before the money was withdrawn. Marion was an intelligent woman and had plenty of time on the plane to mull over all his inconsistencies and lies. I think all his romantic BS that sucked her in during the grooming process began to run thin. Perhaps it just took one more lie for her to realize she had been conned. I believe she was probably killed by accident, during that confrontation, perhaps in a struggle. I don't think pre-meditated murder was his MO but he may have struck her in anger especially if Marion threatened to expose him. After hurriedly buying the car, he disposed of her body and the money was withdrawn by someone else, probably DdH. They would have access to her clothes, jewellery, documents etc. He then placed the cash in a safe deposit box at Ballina bank which he held for 13 days. Loose ends and evidence all tidied up, he sold the car in case there was any forensic evidence of Marion remaining in the vehicle. There was very little to tie him to Marion. They weren't seen together during the grooming period in Southport (except when Sally saw 'someone' in Marion's car) and they travelled separately. The only thing was the surname, Remakel. So he conveniently "lost" his driver's license years before. If not for Sally's persistence, it would have been the perfect crime!

Thank you I'm still confused:
You believe she was killed early Oct, before he withdrew her money, right?
But her money started being withdrawn in Aug.
So which is it? Did he kill her between 3-10 Aug? Or 3-10 Oct?
If he killed in Oct, then who was withdrawing her money in Aug-Sept?

 

[BonnieB]

"I have roughly the same theory except I believe Marion found and confronted him before he had time to start withdrawing her money. IMO Marion died between 3rd and 10th October in NSW"

My theory on when Marion met her demise. Marion (if she did return) stayed at the Novotel. RB catches up with Marion there. His goal is to make sure he has all the paper work in order to make the transactions otherwise Marion is not needed any more as he can bribe the bank teller and his wife can act as Marion. He cannot rely on Marion not telling anyone that she has returned. So he takes Marion in his other car to a secluded place he says he has booked for her because he tells her it is too expensive to keep staying at a hotel. This hotel happens to be close to a cliff looking over water. So he suggests they take a romantic walk one night and he pushes her over the cliff and her body has never been found. All the other communications that are reported by Marion afterwards are made by DdH on the phone (or in person) pretending to be Marion to make everyone think she is still alive and wants to start a fresh life including the use of the Medicare card at Grafton.
IMO

I don't like the "cliff" scenario - too risky IMO. I think he was still confident in his amazing ability to control Marion until he was confronted. Perhaps his ultimate plan was for Marion to return to UK but instead of following her, he would retreat to Wollongbar, grow a beard and Mr. de H would just up and disappear back to Sydney or Tassie with the loot never to be seen again.