Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[Meligator]

Here is an ad from NYT Sept 1970 (so ad targeting cruisers in US), but must be for cruising dates in 1971. If boat left Southampton in or about Jan 71 arriving in California Feb ‘71, then in Sydney not much later. Returning to UK April ‘71. There are no Chusan passenger records in NAA for ‘71 (so possible just missing). But this could be a trip they took with RB departing in Sydney or possibly in UK. He wasn’t in jail until June ‘71

 

[KiwiNZ]

Here is an ad from NYT Sept 1970 (so ad targeting cruisers in US), but must be for cruising dates in 1971. If boat left Southampton in or about Jan 71 arriving in California Feb ‘71, then in Sydney not much later. Returning to UK April ‘71. There are no Chusan passenger records in NAA for ‘71 (so possible just missing). But this could be a trip they took with RB departing in Sydney or possibly in UK. He wasn’t in jail until June ‘71

There is a guy who runs a facebook page about old P&O ships, he was a crew member on the Chusan 1971 - 72. I have asked him about the route, will post when/if he responds. His page has photos and information about the Chusan

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

When Mr aka and wife were living in Burwash, East Sussex between approx 1983 to 1986 I wonder what surname(s) they were using including the children at the local playgroup/school?

Would they have had a go at getting UK passports? Also in that period could non UK nationals just set up residence in the UK for the 3 years? This is before the Freedom of Movement in the EU and I thought Australians had a time limit on visa’s?

 

[KiwiNZ]

When Mr aka and wife were living in Burwash, East Sussex between approx 1983 to 1986 I wonder what surname(s) they were using including the children at the local playgroup/school?

Would they have had a go at getting UK passports? Also in that period could non UK nationals just set up residence in the UK for the 3 years? This is before the Freedom of Movement in the EU and I thought Australians had a time limit on visa’s?

were DH's parents born in the UK ? she may have had a UK passport if so

 

[KiwiNZ]

When Mr aka and wife ....

haha love it - perfect name for him

 

[Pineconemind]

There is a guy who runs a facebook page about old P&O ships, he was a crew member on the Chusan 1971 - 72. I have asked him about the route, will post when/if he responds. His page has photos and information about the Chusan

Not sure if this is of any help? Not sure if it's already been found and posted previously.

P & O Line - Tables 1971, 1973, 1975 from ABC Shipping Guide April 1971 (timetableimages.com)

 

[Pineconemind]

were DH's parents born in the UK ? she may have had a UK passport if so

I asked this question too a while back. One of them must of had a UK passport, under what name is anyones guess!

 

[brjakj]

Here is an ad from NYT Sept 1970 (so ad targeting cruisers in US), but must be for cruising dates in 1971. If boat left Southampton in or about Jan 71 arriving in California Feb ‘71, then in Sydney not much later. Returning to UK April ‘71. There are no Chusan passenger records in NAA for ‘71 (so possible just missing). But this could be a trip they took with RB departing in Sydney or possibly in UK. He wasn’t in jail until June ‘71

There are some records of people arriving in Chusan 10 March 1971, but not a complete passenger list

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

The 2nd hand white Mitsubishi Magna (Reg PVC096) purchased on the 11 Aug 97 and sold on the 30 Nov 97 is clearly an important part of the investigation. Mrs aka states it was for her daughter (16 years old at the time) to use to drive to work.

 

[F.Knab]

were DH's parents born in the UK ? she may have had a UK passport if so

She could have had "Right of Abode" I had this when I travelled to the UK in 1997 - allows you to work and reside in the UK indefinitely.

 

[Pineconemind]

Went down a bit of a rabbit hole searching for "Chusan". I don't think it relates to anything but here is what came up:-

Found a stock photograph of a motor boat named "Chusan" with port of registry BieuLieu, UK.

Then found a 7.6 motor boat was registered in the UK Waterways - MedWay Rivers. MedWay is the area around Kent, UK.

And this:

Welcome to the Boat Listing section of Canalplan AC. From this page you can search the details of over 100,000 boats registered on the Inland Waterways of England and Wales

Note: The details of individual boats have been taken from files kindly supplied by the navigation authorities so will reflect their records. If you find a record is not correct please check with the navigation authority to ensure that their records are updated but note that this listing is only updated once each year so many updates will not be reflected in this listing until the following year.

There is 1 record that matches your query

Chusan Built by Unknown in 1964 - Length : 7.6 metres ( 24 feet 11 inches ). Hull colour : White , Superstructure colour : White
Powered by an Inboard Petrol engine with a capacity of 1600 CC. Registered with Environment Authority - Southern Region number M20380 as a Seamaster Powered Motor Boat. ( Last updated on Friday 27th April 2007 )

And then:-

Cooling Castle, Kent UK
The moat is still flooded on three sides and has ducks and aquatic vegetation with another stream or ditch lined with weeping willows. The rectangular enclosure of the inner moat is of main grass with a fine central deodar cedar (50-60 feet tall) and chusan palms (Trachy corpus). Other fine trees as specimens noted include robinia, aesculus and beech. Climbers and shrubs decorate the walls. There is a small kitchen garden to the east.

Cooling Castle - Cooling - Parks & Gardens (parksandgardens.org)

The only thing that sparked my interest really was the boats name 'Chusan' and that it had been previously been registered to waterways around Kent, UK (possible areas of interest)

I could be just super tired and all the info is getting muddled in my brain or has no relevance and simply coincidence. Let me know your thoughts!

 

[sunnybree]

Comparing RB’s possible scams with JO and Marion, JO was after Marian, right? So perhaps RB was trying to “improve” on the scam, addressing some things that had gone wrong with Marion. For example if the plan with Marion was to withdraw her money in the UK, that went wrong because Marion opened the account under Barter instead of her new name. Then they had to return to Australia and continue the con where perhaps Marion, back on her home turf and the relationship becoming increasingly less glamorous, started to ask questions and resist. So with JO, RB decides not to waste time with name changes, overseas bank accounts, and withdrawing cash, because that relies too much on his victim. This time he will get the title deeds and POA. He then plans to ditch JO overseas and by the time she comes back, it’s all gone. Only that didn’t work for a different reason (JO’s cousin becoming suspicious).

 

[caitlincurious]

Train strike this morning so had to get the bus through the city. Listening to the latest podcast episode and I look to my right and see Noble Numismatics, mentioned in the inquest, as RB had dealings with its founder and attended coin auctions there. My skin crawled!

 

[KeenSleuth17]

Yes it would be interesting to be a fly on the wall.

With any luck the Police might be a fly on the wall reporting back to the Homicide squad!

 

[KeenSleuth17]

10ft? Isn't it usually 6ft? This cracked me up regardless.

Might need 4 extra feet to ensure he doesn’t con his way out?

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

The 2nd hand white Mitsubishi Magna (Reg PVC096) purchased on the 11 Aug 97 and sold on the 30 Nov 97 is clearly an important part of the investigation. Mrs aka states it was for her daughter (16 years old at the time) to use to drive to work.

Well as she couldn’t drive it by herself until 17 it seems rather bizarre to buy a car for daughter to use for work.. more weird stories that don’t add up

 

[LouLouSleuth]

Maybe he has a lot stolen goods he’s buried in the garden holes he’s dug in various properties he’s lived in over the years

The very definition of Gold Digger!!

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Can anyone remember D parents christian names.. ?

 

[mishy66]

This is very interesting.
Nothing surprises me about him now so this is plausible.

Maybe it is his brother Willy Wouters coming in with Ilona in the April of 1969 and he is really
Freddy .....Désiré !??


Ilona marries WW in May 1969 Brussels
They come into Australia the same month.
He gets residence status due to that marriage
They both go back overseas in the following year 1970
1970-02-15 Willy Wouters departed Australia without a re-entry visa.....
maybe the real WW dies once back overseas?

Ilona marries MJ Reid 1970 - Hungary .... aka RB who is really Desire or Freddy ( remembering he said he hadn't spoken to Freddy for over 30 years....
- hello new life and new identity!

Anyone find MJ Reid coming in after 1970's -

Just revisiting my theory on the IK and WW link.
I think I must have been in Willy Wonka land thinking this!

ALTHOUGH I do believe he is NOT the real Willy David Wouters. Leaving that for another day.



BUT here is my theory on IK and WW and to me the most logical given IK backstory of displacement.

1969-05-10 alleged marriage date between Ilona Kinczel and Willy Wouters in Brussels
1969-05-11 Ilona flys to Australia
1969-05-24 Willy Wouters arrives on a three month holiday visa
residence 6 Godbell St, Paddington - same address as IK
5 mths later on 2 October 1969 granted Aust residency – Thanks to IK

January 1970 daughter EW/R is born
1970-02-15 they both leave Australia - Her back to her family and future marriage to MJR and him to continue his criminal dealings. He has gained Aust Residency a great prize in his future plans.

WW uses IK to gain Aust residency obviously. He swoons her with a new life in Aust.
She is already pregnant when they arrive as her first child is born 9 mths after arrival.

After he gains residency they leave to go back to Hungary / Belgium. By that stage they have been here for 9 months. She by now has realised he is a swindler and wants to go home to be with her family.

(At this point 1970 with IK pregnant, I think he has met DW as I stated a few posts back)

They split up and IK meets an Australian /Englishman MJR and falls in love.
MJR heads over to Hungary at some point after IK has left and they marry.

EW daughter takes up MJR name- the only father she has known and their 2nd child CR is born in Hungary 1973.

3 years later 1976, they all return to Australia. IK dies the following year 1977 and MJR is left to raise the 2 children.

I think WW has had nothing to do with IK after they both returned overseas in 1970. His plan was completed thanks to her generosity and there is no way a child is going to ruin his future plans.

This is why he had no idea how she died. He never had anything to do with her after 1970.
IMO

 

[Meligator]

Curious if anyone has found evidence of the MJR in AU? When IK returned, I don’t think it was immediately after leaving in 1970. Are we sure she didn’t return to AU alone with two kids? Also are the names of her kids on an official doc (or is that an assumption?). There are other Kinczels in NAA. Are those her kids and if so, why are they Kinczel?