Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[centred]

No after he left Australia in February, 1970 by plane and went to Belgium with Ilona and baby on the same flight.

There is no record of his arriving here again in 1971 or departing in 1971.

Well he gave evidence that the ship was meant to leave in Dec and it left in Jan and it seemed to be ascertained that that could be 1971 rather than 1970 and agreed to by both Mr C and RB of the possibility .RB also added he DID NOT know what name he used .. so he is admitting to entering by ship into Australia under an alias ...or someone he cannot recall so there may have been a time he skipped through as someone they haven't checked out which is obvious because he was meant to be here around that time ...anyway it may come to light if indeed it is important re MB or if authorities decide to follow that line of inquiry up ..IMO

 

[centred]

I had never thought that RB would have had a faked marriage with DdH! That's a new idea.

I never suggested his marriage to D was fake > IMO This could be the only one that isn't

 

[SamintheSak]

Does anyone know where the info about Marion's postcards can be found?

Also, was there mention of some identity fraud of Marion before she left? Didn't a woman take her drivers license in Ballina?

 

[ruby925]

Well he gave evidence that the ship was meant to leave in Dec and it left in Jan and it seemed to be ascertained that that could be 1971 rather than 1970 and agreed to by both Mr C and RB of the possibility .RB also added he DID NOT know what name he used .. so he is admitting to entering by ship into Australia under an alias ...or someone he cannot recall so there may have been a time he skipped through as someone they haven't checked out which is obvious because he was meant to be here around that time ...anyway it may come to light if indeed it is important re MB or if authorities decide to follow that line of inquiry up ..IMO

Yes, this revolved around him poss going in as WW when he already had residency granted as FDH, AC put this to him twice and there is info available that the Australian authorities were 'interested' in his status.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

I thought I’d search some arrivals with FDH names he said he had used.
Starting with Bernard Dupont arrived 30th April 1970 on a flight from Noumea to Sydney

the timeline works.. after IK and before Jail

*not saying this is him just searched the name this is the only 1 for this name.

Edit - this person says he is a resident and was out of Oz for 2 months.. timeline works
View digital copy

 

[Pineconemind]

IMO In brief, RB met DdH in 1975 but it could have been 1974 as there is no record of his returning to Australia.

Sorry about the length of this but I have updated it and will put my comments in bold to explain how I understand this:

This is the timeline with my interpretations:

WW could not have met DdH on the Chusan in early 1970 (or in 1971) here as he was in Sydney with Ilona who gave birth to their first child in January, 1970. "You cannot be in two places at once" said Casselden.

1970-01 Ilona gives birth to Evelyn Wouters who later became Evelyn Reid

1970-02-15 Ilona left Australia on UT2506 from Sydney to Belgium?
1970-02-15 Willy Wouters departed Australia without a re-entry visa on UT2506 to Belgium, status Divorced (2)

Note that WW and IW left on the same flight for Belgium even though he states he is divorced. How could they get divorced so quickly if they only married in 1968? Why leave on the same flight as the wife you are divorced from? IMO WW states this as he intends to get rid of the WW name while he is in Europe as WW has a criminal record attached to it which will deny him of re-entry and come back in another name. IMO he faked the first Marriage Certificate to Ilona to get Australian residency then once they got to Europe, maybe Ilona insisted they get married as they were now parents and before they did, he pretended he lost his passport and got another one in the name of Michael J Reid - a name which would be more acceptable in Australia.

More convictions in Belgium and France, for fraud, attempted fraud, breach of trust, impersonation. Various short prison sentences in France, the longest 4 years, most to be served concurrently.

1970 Ilona married in Budapest Hungary to MJR (Reid?)

How could Ilona who has a newborn baby meet and marry someone with an English sounding name the same year that she arrived in Europe to stay with her parents because there was not enough time to get a divorce? IMO WW changed his name to Michael J Reid when he married Ilona in 1970 overseas so that Australian govt would not know when he returned.

1971 Ilona first child born (daughter ER) should be Jan 1970

This is incorrect. Daughter was born in 1970. I have corrected this since as Casselden brought this up at inquest.

RB goes to prison 1971 in France as WW.

1971-6-23 WW.Arrested Rouen, Discharged 21/5/1974
1971-12-09 Willy Wouters Rouen France, sentenced to 4 years prison for fraud, forgery, confidence tricks, giving false identity
1972-01-11 WW sentenced to one month for unsecured cheques in absentia in France.
1972-11-16 Willy Wouters Lille France, 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentence)
1973-01-23 Willy Waitress Fraud 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentences)

I think there is enough time here for Michal J Reid (WW) and Ilona to conceive their second child?

1973 Ilona second child born (son C Reid) - exact date of his birth is unknown

1974-01 Willy Wouters App Dousai "checks without cover" 1 years prison
1974-05-21 Willy Wouters discharged from prison. He may have then joined Ilona again in Belgium after leaving prison but where he was, is unaccounted for.
I predict that Ilona has been living with her parents in Belgium (not Hungary) while WW has been in prison. Not sure if she ever knew he went to prison. Maybe he concocted a story or that led to their separation as she returned to Australia alone with her two children and went to live in Melbourne. No record to say he and Ilona ever divorced and she died of a heart attack (not in a car crash as RB claimed) in Melbourne.

Between 1974 and 1975 IMO, Willy Wouters using a passport in the name of Michael J Reid must have returned to Australia but no records can be found say immigration dept (this file is not public) as they were unable to link the name WW to Michael J Reid IMO.
Did MJR enter Australia again on his WW Australian passport changed to the name of MJReid so he could enter easily as he had Australian residency on that attached or did MJR get a fake Belgian passport in the name of M J Reid in which case, he would have entered on a Holiday Visa for three months? If he arrived on a Holiday visa, he could not officially work so IMO he could have worked for cash in 1975 at the cafe owned by DdH parents as DdH said he worked for her parents there. IMO this is where they first met.He also lived with her parents at Vaucluse. Did he overstay his Holiday visa or had he used a faked Australian passport and arrived earlier in 1974?

If RB did not get a divorce from Ilona, he could have been married to Ilona and DdH at the same time for one year and thought he could get away with it by changing names. RB married DdH in 1976. Ilona died in 1977-07-13. Bigamy? Or were none of Ilona and RB's marriages registered officially? Perhaps the one in Belgium was to Michael J Reid.

CONTINUED >>>

1977 We know they (he & DdeH) are listed in census docs living in 1/303 Old South West Road, Bondi and he has listed himself as an artist and D as a secretary. (Note D name is spelt here with 1 'N') He told her he was a Wedding Photographer

and then in

1980 Are listed in living in Military Road, he's listed as a photographer and DdeH is listed as hd = (is this the abbreviation for hand?) Home Duties

My question and mind keep circling around: How & when did he meet DdeH?! How does she fit in?

I think he really also could be MJ Reid.

12 Feb 1976 – WW changes name to FDdH
IMO This is because his M J Reid name is a fake, he has not been divorced from Ilona and WW has a criminal record so he claims he lost his passport.

20 Feb 1976 – FDdH marries DW

23 Feb 1976 – FDdH applies for Aus citizenship

25 Mar 1976 – FDdH Aus citizenship granted and AU passport issued

28 July 1976 – FDdH and DdH depart Aus. DdH claims in the next few years they lived in Belgium,
3 years in Luxembourg, a few months in Bordeaux, France, back to Belgium, UK for 3 years then Aus

1977 We know they (he & DdeH) are listed in census docs living in 1/303 Old South West Road, Bondi and he has listed himself as an artist and D as a secretary. (Note D name is spelt here with 1 'N') He told her he was a Wedding Photographer

Oct 76 - Feb 77 – FDdH arrested in Luxembourg as Roger Lauzoney from Morocco born 1945

1977-07-13 Ilona died, age 31yo, St Kilda, Victoria of Myocardial ischaemia (heart), The Coroner at Melbourne Mr H.W. Pascoe ordered burial of the body without inquest. What happened to her two children? Was WW/MJR the father?

13 Aug 1978 – FDdH and DdH return to Aus

2 Apr 1979 – FDdH DdH son born in Sydney

1980 Are listed in living in Military Road, he's listed as a photographer and DdeH is listed as hd = (is this the abbreviation for hand?) Home Duties

6 Feb 1980 – FDdH departs Aus

23 Apr 1980 – DdH and son depart Aus

21 Jan 1980 – DdH and son return to Aus

2 Apr 1981 – FDdH issued Aus passport issued Germany

17 Apr 1981 – FDdH DW daughter born in Luxembourg

18 Nov 1981 – FDdH returns to Aus

4 Dec 1981 – FDdH departs Aus, no apparent re-entry into Aus for 6 years[/QUOTE]


Thank you Estelle! My feelings & thoughts exactly, the way they (RB & DdeH) explain their timeline is so off.

 

[Pineconemind]

I think I have worked out why it was important for both DdH and RB to lie about when they met and give the Chusan story to Casselden.

I think the reason why they both told this story is because RB was still married to Ilona when he married DdH in 1976. Ilona died in 1977 so there is over a year's overlap.

So my theory is that he could be charged with bigamy so they have made up the Chusan story to cut Ilona out of RB's history.

Maybe he is even still married to Janine Leroy and Nicole Renault/Renaud if they are still alive if there has not been a legal divorce. Also he has probably never paid child maintenance.

Could RB have been married to four women at the one time in 1976 if he never legally divorced any of them? Because police have been able to connect his aliases now, maybe they have checked this out.

I doubt whether RB ever legally divorced any of his three previous wives. He simply changed his name and address and thought he'd get away with it.

Criminal offence of bigamy
It is a criminal offence to marry a person whilst already married. The maximum penalty for bigamy is five years imprisonment.

100% agree IMO that he was married to different women at the same time.

 

[gymtonic]

Has anyone yet mentioned the changes in the way the numbers 7 and 9 are written on arrival/ departure cards. On some they are written in a very distinctly “French” way i.e 7 has a cross stroke through it and 9 is written like an upside down 6. On others there is variation i.e. 7 without a cross stroke and 9 with no tail. These sorts of handwriting “tells” often reveal the difference in how countries teach handwriting. To me (a being very familiar with French handwriting) this always leaps out as an indication of where a person is from. Of course many European countries cross the 7 (not just France) but it is interesting how the cards sometimes have the 7 and 9 written as many people in the UK might do so.

 

[vivienbee]

Has anyone yet mentioned the changes in the way the numbers 7 and 9 are written on arrival/ departure cards. On some they are written in a very distinctly “French” way i.e 7 has a cross stroke through it and 9 is written like an upside down 6. On others there is variation i.e. 7 without a cross stroke and 9 with no tail. These sorts of handwriting “tells” often reveal the difference in how countries teach handwriting. To me (a being very familiar with French handwriting) this always leaps out as an indication of where a person is from. Of course many European countries cross the 7 (not just France) but it is interesting how the cards sometimes have the 7 and 9 written as many people in the UK might do so.

Not sure if you mean that most people in the UK don't cross their 7s? I think handwriting is partly cultural (due to the way it's taught in schools) but I think it's too individual to really get a good idea of the country. I'm from the UK and I always cross my 7s because someone in teenage years (no idea who) suggested to me that it helps to prevent confusion between a 7 and a 1, especially on postal addresses etc. Sometimes I also alternate the way I write numbers with no real rhyme or reason, using just a line for a 1 or drawing them as they appear here for example.

 

[vivienbee]

DOUBLE POST.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Sometimes when I'm writing something like an address, I often alternate between lower and upper case. Just the off letter, usually because I think it could be confused with something else. I seem to do it with G because my written Gs can end up looking like an E, so I do a lower case g.

Sometimes I also alternate the way I write numbers with no real rhyme or reason, using just a line for a 1 or drawing them as they appear here for example.

 

[gymtonic]

Not sure if you mean that most people in the UK don't cross their 7s? I think handwriting is partly cultural (due to the way it's taught in schools) but I think it's too individual to really get a good idea of the country. I'm from the UK and I always cross my 7s because someone in teenage years (no idea who) suggested to me that it helps to prevent confusion between a 7 and a 1, especially on postal addresses etc. Sometimes I also alternate the way I write numbers with no real rhyme or reason, using just a line for a 1 or drawing them as they appear here for example.[/QUOTE
I was born and did my schooling in the UK in the 60s and 70s and was taught to write 7s with no cross. In those days to cross the 7 was the way it was taught in France. After studying French and French school exchange I realised that the way handwriting was taught there was very different (especially the 1s, 7s and 9s as I mentioned). From that time onward I wrote my 7s with a cross (but I never reverted to a 7 without a cross).

The reason you gave for the cross is very valid, as the French way of teaching 1s was very similar to an English 7, hence they distinguished by using the cross.

These days with so much migration, there may be less to differentiate but the arrival/ departure cards were filled in during the 60s and 70s and when I look at the handwriting on them I can see that they are very distinctly European, but to change from 7 with a cross to 7 without from one card to another is surely not usual? And on the same cards to change from a 9 with a tail to a nine without?? I’m no handwriting expert but MOO when this happens, it could be consistent with different people filling out the cards.
EDIT I just found this link to explain What your handwriting says about you

 

[gymtonic]

Not sure if you mean that most people in the UK don't cross their 7s? I think handwriting is partly cultural (due to the way it's taught in schools) but I think it's too individual to really get a good idea of the country. I'm from the UK and I always cross my 7s because someone in teenage years (no idea who) suggested to me that it helps to prevent confusion between a 7 and a 1, especially on postal addresses etc. Sometimes I also alternate the way I write numbers with no real rhyme or reason, using just a line for a 1 or drawing them as they appear here for example.

I was born and did my schooling in the UK in the 60s and 70s and was taught to write 7s with no cross. In those days to cross the 7 was the way it was taught in France. After studying French and French school exchange I realised that the way handwriting was taught there was very different (especially the 1s, 7s and 9s as I mentioned). From that time onward I wrote my 7s with a cross (but I never reverted to a 7 without a cross).

The reason you gave for the cross is very valid, as the French way of teaching 1s was very similar to an English 7, hence they distinguished by using the cross.

These days with so much migration, there may be less to differentiate but the arrival/ departure cards were filled in during the 60s and 70s and when I look at the handwriting on them I can see that they are very distinctly European, but to change from 7 with a cross to 7 without from one card to another is surely not usual? And on the same cards to change from a 9 with a tail to a nine without?? I’m no handwriting expert but MOO when this happens, it could be consistent with different people filling out the cards.
EDIT I just found this link to explain What your handwriting says about you

 

[Meligator]

So Sally talked about this early on in the Podcast. It happened at her mums house. She left her purse in her car in the driveway. Marion realised and went out to the car, and purse was gone. I assume that before she had a chance to put a stop on her card, it was used at servo by a woman. Police showed them the CCTV of the woman at the servo, and Sally was surprised by the resemblance to Marion. Not sure of the date exactly, I thought it was mid 1996, but I could have that wrong. There is so much information to keep track of with this.
I just hope the police have something from this CCTV that further implicates them in regard to Marion, and stealing from her. Not sure CCTV would be good enough to capture Rego. Hopefully car model though. They seem to know which cars they had and when. My only other thought is that RB may have had the opportunity to take the purse at some other point that day and she just didn’t suspect him, and wasn’t sure when she last saw her purse.

It’s also possible the stolen purse has nothing to do with RB & that a thief was checking car doors and found Marion’s unlocked with wallet inside. Pretty common theft even today.

 

[vivienbee]

I’m no handwriting expert but MOO when this happens, it could be consistent with different people filling out the cards.

Which card are you referring to with crossed 7s? I don't remember any.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I wake up and find you're all on fire! Best websleuthers ever! Wow, @Estelle. I'm with you 100%. You have persuaded me that D is a player alongside RB. Actually, the first time I saw her on the stand-- not influenced by anyone here-- I thought she looked like an older Marion. Add to that RB's comments about the fringe and old-fashioned clothes, it seems as if they'd studied Marion to recreate her. "Old-fashioned" I took to mean a style Marion liked, a kind of romantic puffy sleeves and Laura Ashley style, that was not old-fashioned but definitely distinctive-- and one most men don't favor. (in my experience. I loved Laura Ashley.)

Totally dig the idea that D and RB are lying about dates because he was a bigamist. Right up his -- uh, er, their-- alley.

PS. Thank you to the member who reminded us all of the credit card thief who looked like Marion. That hit me like a sledgehammer last night.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

So Casselden laid all the crumbs to Marion:

• lies and more lies
  
• false identities
• women victims
• real estate fraud, bank fraud, property theft, document theft
• left-luggage
• UK itineraries
• multiple passports
• purposeful head-spinning chaos (in travel plans etc)
• Importance of hair colors (D as accomplice)
  
• Phone call accusing G's daycare of abuse
• a trail of used and discarded women
• disdain of Australians and Australian authority

Anything else I've forgotten?

 

[Bibno]

Does anyone know where the info about Marion's postcards can be found?

They are all on the earlier threads. I think most of them were posted around the time of the first part of the inquest in June last year.

 

[KiwiNZ]

So, given the wife and kids are represented by same person, we can deduce they are on the same side and will provide ZERO value to the court.

I don't understand that they would provide no value to the court if they are on their mother's side because that means they are not on their father's side. In that case, would it mean that they could give evidence that opposes their father's testimony?

I would say it's not that they are not on their Fathers side but the police clear think they have their man, he needs his own lawyer separate from anyone else to save mucking around later with lawyers if it went to court.

They have the same lawyer as their mother as they statement likely align (at this time) or they have nothing more to add to their mothers statement of events

And if anyone's going to turn on RB it's his wife, so lawyers would likely not take on both from the start

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

It’s also possible the stolen purse has nothing to do with RB & that a thief was checking car doors and found Marion’s unlocked with wallet inside. Pretty common theft even today.

I agree. Anything is possible in this case. However, Sally's response is telling. Especially given it was way before any hint of RB and scamming. Those kind of gut responses are sometimes truer than we realize.