Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[brjakj]

Wow coles is interesting.. maybe they needed some cash and she slipped and sued hahah

Yes I did have that thought. Just another scam on the list. Surprised RB didn’t try to blame memory problems on this!

 

[Liselle]

I am hooked on FR impersonating a pilot - (1) MB was seen with a pilot at the school. Could this have been RB as he stated he gone to her school to pick up some books. A student’s parent just happened to be a pilot so was wrongly identified. (2) RB said she came with a man in a uniform (? pilot) when she collected her stored belongings from his house. Was this to cover the ruse?
So…. did RB become FR "The Pilot" to woo MB? Hire/buy a uniform from a party-hire company? Travel o/s as an off duty pilot? Pilots are permitted to wear their uniform when flying as a passenger between ports. Then I found this online:
No, it is not illegal to dress like a pilot.

 

[Estelle]

Some interesting things I’ve come across, not sure of their relevance but thought I’d share in case others are interested.

Im still stumped by the Florabella name. I came across a “Florabella Ballet School” in the UK. If our man of many names liked ballet so much, maybe he knows of it somehow.

Also, a civil case in the NSW district court (DdH v Coles). I can’t find a judgement for it though so it’s possibly unreported.

Did you notice the article at the bottom of the page of your link on the right? "Missing mum's secret lover allegedly tried to lead others to financial ....." What's that about?

 

[gymtonic]

What if Marion's death was the intended end to the con? What if JO escaped that fate by the skin of her teeth, aka her Manchester cousin? What if GGB escaped because her children got involved and helped steer her away? So RB pushes the limits on what a "confidence trick" (love that old fashioned phrase from the AUS NAA file) means. After Marion and two failures, perhaps he dialed back his MO. Also, what if Wife Diane was never privy to the murder part? What if he used her up to a certain point, and what she's learning now is how far things actually went.

One big cataclysmic shift occurred. The internet quickly made conning harder, just as DNA has made serial killing harder. I think RB had to shift his MO to something he could manage, as an old guy with limited computer skills.

Always possible eh? IMO If the chronological order was GGB, JO and then MB it would make sense, but with the chronological order as MB then GGB and JO it's a little more tenuous MOO. I mean after MB, GGB is linked directly to FdH via an AVO so it's a bit risky? Of course getting away with so many name changes to that point could explain overconfidence?

 

[vivienbee]

Did you notice the article at the bottom of the page of your link on the right? "Missing mum's secret lover allegedly tried to lead others to financial ....." What's that about?

I've tried to look it up but it seems like the article might have been deleted.

 

[gymtonic]

Having discovered that Maria C was a Piqueuse (lace maker) and coupled with RB claim to have been involved with tapestry making, I went down a rabbit hole! Turns out that Belgium is well known for it's traditional textile industry particularly Tapestry and Lace and that there is a Museum of Tapestry and Textile Arts (inc lace) in Tournai which is included on this tour guide Victoria C. Frank, Inc. - The Textile Traditions of Belgium; Tapestries and Lace

Not sure it gets us any closer to MB but IMO it does strengthen the theory of a genuine relationship link between MC and RB as lace making and tapestry related within family histories down the generations? (shown here): About Us Belgian Tapestries
Also in trying to make sense of the RB narrative, I now reckon, when he was trying to describe making "models" he was claiming to have been making the Tapestry "cartoons" as per this description of tapestry making https://www.metmuseum.org/blogs/now-at-the-met/2014/making-a-tapestry

 

[vivienbee]

Having discovered that Maria C was a Piqueuse (lace maker) and coupled with RB claim to have been involved with tapestry making, I went down a rabbit hole! Turns out that Belgium is well known for it's traditional textile industry particularly Tapestry and Lace and that there is a Museum of Tapestry and Textile Arts (inc lace) in Tournai which is included on this tour guide Victoria C. Frank, Inc. - The Textile Traditions of Belgium; Tapestries and Lace

Not sure it gets us any closer to MB but IMO it does strengthen the theory of a genuine relationship link between MC and RB as lace making and tapestry related within family histories down the generations? (shown here): About Us Belgian Tapestries

Oh god the acronyms are so confusing, I thought you were talking about Monique

 

[gymtonic]

Did you notice the article at the bottom of the page of your link on the right? "Missing mum's secret lover allegedly tried to lead others to financial ....." What's that about?

Isn't that a report of the MB case that has appeared in the list because the search term was deH?

 

[gymtonic]

Some interesting things I’ve come across, not sure of their relevance but thought I’d share in case others are interested.

Im still stumped by the Florabella name. I came across a “Florabella Ballet School” in the UK. If our man of many names liked ballet so much, maybe he knows of it somehow.

Also, a civil case in the NSW district court (DdH v Coles). I can’t find a judgement for it though so it’s possibly unreported.

Did you also find the Florabella Belly Dancing in Weymouth, UK...now there's a coincidence!!

 

[othervee]

Wow coles is interesting.. maybe they needed some cash and she slipped and sued hahah

I have a theory about the Coles case. There was an incident in the Lismore Coles in March 2020 where a man attacked and knocked over some women in the store. I wonder if DdeH was one of them and sued Coles for it a few months later.

 

[BonnieB]

I am hooked on FR impersonating a pilot - (1) MB was seen with a pilot at the school. Could this have been RB as he stated he gone to her school to pick up some books. A student’s parent just happened to be a pilot so was wrongly identified. (2) RB said she came with a man in a uniform (? pilot) when she collected her stored belongings from his house. Was this to cover the ruse?
So…. did RB become FR "The Pilot" to woo MB? Hire/buy a uniform from a party-hire company? Travel o/s as an off duty pilot? Pilots are permitted to wear their uniform when flying as a passenger between ports. Then I found this online:
No, it is not illegal to dress like a pilot.

Yes, this was my initial train of thought. He certainly had enough hours in planes to pull it off, could well have sat beside an off duty pilot on a long haul flight to get enough background info and would only have had to appear once or twice in uniform to be convincing. Obtaining a uniform would have been no problem for him. The fact that he mentioned seeing a pilot is misdirection away from him IMO. It's also a known fact that con men have used a pilot identity because it's almost as trusted as a police uniform. It would also be a great way to explain regularly disappearing for a day or two and to make excuses why he had to fly in and out on different flights to Marion. Makes sense IMO

 

[brjakj]

Did you notice the article at the bottom of the page of your link on the right? "Missing mum's secret lover allegedly tried to lead others to financial ....." What's that about?

I would have searched “Hedervary” so that is probably just an article in relation to MB.

 

[mishy66]

I think I may be able to shed some light on why there are interchangeable surnames/ family names in RB's early life narrative, and the explanation may be of help for those searching various records.

I was listening to the beginning of RB's testimony again about the early years and picked up on something I missed before because of poor sound quality. When asked why Freddy and Desiree (jnr) took the surname David, RB started to say something about the Napoleonic Code before going in a different direction. I again had a Eureka moment when I remembered something weird about French (and thus Francophone) family names back in history pre the Napoleonic code which introduced a more regulated system. Anyhow I consulted Dr Google which gave me a link to this text which explains it more succinctly than I can at the moment: https://www.quora.com/Did-Napoleon-...ment-the-same-number-of-surnames-as-back-then

TEXT:
"There have been family names for a long, long time across the whole world. What Napoleon introduced was the bureaucratic requirement for them as part of the Code Napoleon, which was an extensive set of laws used in all the territories he controlled, starting, obviously, with France in 1804.

It probably sounds strange to us now, but until the 18th century there was very little official record keeping compared to what we take for granted now. For example, there was no legal requirement to record births, deaths or marriages in much of Europe before then, though some parishes, burghs, towns and cities did keep records of them. It wasn't until 1752 that marriages had to recorded in Britain.

The same goes for family names. Although they were in common use, there was no legal requirement for them in France and not many elsewhere in Europe, and neither was there the state bureaucracy to record and track them. Carrying your father's surname was traditional but apart from that, your surname (or even lack of surname) was basically a matter of personal choice. If you ever trace your family history back to Europe, you'll come across this once you get as far back as the early 18th century.

The whole purpose of the Code Napoleon was to create a standard set of laws to enable effective and efficient government, which is something the pre-Revolutionary Ancien Régime lacked. Enforcing consistent surnames were a part of that.

As for the number of family names remaining constant - no. Rare family names can die out as families marry into more common names. New family names can also be created through legal name changes, depending on the country.

Interestingly, many surnames changed during the waves of immigration into the US during the early 20th century. Many people arrived without documents, or took new names for their new lives, and many, especially from non-English speaking countries simply had their names misheard by immigration officers, then subsequently spelled and pronounced differently on their new US documents.

.... it’s worth adding that the Bayonne decree (28th of July 1808) made it mandatory for Jews in the States ruled by Napoleon to adopt and officially register a family surname (as opposed to using a patronymic). Not only was this an important step toward the assimilation of Jews into society in France (including present day Belgium and the left bank of the Rhine), Northern Italy, Switzerland and other countries who looked to Napoleonic legislation as the model for their own, it would also explain the origin of the question. As Steven Wilds says, family names predate the Napoleonic era. The Emperor’s contribution was to make them compulsory, as part of the organisation of civil society on a secular foundation."

For more information on that topic, you can look up this article by Ben Weider, who was Jewish himself and founder of the International Napoleonic Society
"

So...
(a) maybe there was a family story that 'way back' the father's family name was de Hedevary but it wasn't recorded on any documents?
(b) inconsistency in taking the Coppernolle, David, Wouters name as your family name regardless of who was the biological father might not be considered as weird in that family culture as it sounds to us today?
(c) it makes tracking down the names very difficult
(d) referring to the second highlighted point, it could explain why RB doesn't consider name changes that strange? of course illegal motives are not excused but it might explain why RB said on a number of occasions...why not, if it is legal?

Don't get me wrong, I am not justifying it...IMO his MO is of a cunning con artist who exploits people and opportunities...it just sheds light on why he might be able to convince himself (and others) that it's OK.

Thank you @gymtonic . That is really informative, not just in this case but overall.

 

[Estelle]

Always possible eh? IMO If the chronological order was GGB, JO and then MB it would make sense, but with the chronological order as MB then GGB and JO it's a little more tenuous MOO. I mean after MB, GGB is linked directly to FdH via an AVO so it's a bit risky? Of course getting away with so many name changes to that point could explain overconfidence?

Isn't that a report of the MB case that has appeared in the list because the search term was deH?

Yes but would the media have printed his FdH name then (2020)? He is usually referred to as the missing teacher's or mum's secret lover.

 

[vivienbee]

Yes but would the media have printed his FdH name then (2020)? He is usually referred to as the missing teacher's or mum's secret lover.

The article is definitely about Marion, I just can't open it because when you google that exact phrase and click the link it comes up with an error page or just takes you to the landing page of the news site.
"Missing mum's secret lover allegedly tried to lead others to 'financial ruin'. The secret North Coast lover of missing woman Marion Barter allegedly scammed..." and that's as far as I can see.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

I am hooked on FR impersonating a pilot - (1) MB was seen with a pilot at the school. Could this have been RB as he stated he gone to her school to pick up some books. A student’s parent just happened to be a pilot so was wrongly identified. (2) RB said she came with a man in a uniform (? pilot) when she collected her stored belongings from his house. Was this to cover the ruse?
So…. did RB become FR "The Pilot" to woo MB? Hire/buy a uniform from a party-hire company? Travel o/s as an off duty pilot? Pilots are permitted to wear their uniform when flying as a passenger between ports. Then I found this online:
No, it is not illegal to dress like a pilot.

I have always thought the pilot was someone she fancied he not interested in her snd was merely a father of one of her students.. mind you I haven’t listened to the early TLV eps since the early days of the podcast

 

[Meligator]

So trying to make sense of some of RB's statements during inquest. First he says he's not completely sure of his birth name, then says he has the birth record (Willy Coppenolle). But then says the records of his birth were destroyed in a bombing. If he has his birth record, would the name on it, be the name he was given at birth? Then, throughout his adult life, he goes by the name "rick/fredrick," which happens to be the name of his (maybe) brother/half-brother? It's one thing to take on an identity with paper documents, but the name you have people call you in day-to-day interactions, I'd imagine might be the name used during childhood.

Also, why would two younger brothers from the same father (even if born after his parents married), not be in the orphanage? With a child in an orphanage & both legs amputated, his mother has two more children? I know it was a different time, but still something strange about that story.

Wouldn't be shocking if the birth record he says he has as Willy Coppenolle is not legit/stolen (and conveniently any other copies were destroyed in a bombing). I'd be he's really Freddy David.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Isn't that a report of the MB case that has appeared in the list because the search term was deH?

Yes I think that too.. it’s the northern star dated feb 2022 so it’s just popped up due to De Hedervary search

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

The article is definitely about Marion, I just can't open it because when you google that exact phrase and click the link it comes up with an error page or just takes you to the landing page of the news site.
"Missing mum's secret lover allegedly tried to lead others to 'financial ruin'. The secret North Coast lover of missing woman Marion Barter allegedly scammed..." and that's as far as I can see.

In the screen shot original post I’m seeing feb 2022 northern star

 

[centred]

Some interesting things I’ve come across, not sure of their relevance but thought I’d share in case others are interested.

Im still stumped by the Florabella name. I came across a “Florabella Ballet School” in the UK. If our man of many names liked ballet so much, maybe he knows of it somehow.

Also, a civil case in the NSW district court (DdH v Coles). I can’t find a judgement for it though so it’s possibly unreported.

In light of the fact RB spoke of " Nureyev "when discussing this dance evidence and referenced some town where he was known to be acknowledged and even said the word Ballet , i wonder where the Belly dancer came into it other than it well may have been misunderstood by others as being "Belly"

I remember thinking why it wasn't corrected and every one here just ran with it because they thought it was funny , so not such a silly connection IMO