Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[ruby925]

I wonder which University and what name he was using if it’s true? Was it usual that children from orphanages went to University?

RB said Academy of Arts, studying Pre Colombian Civilisation. Google says 2 such fine arts academies, Brussels and Antwerp. By that time, he would have been out of the orphanage for some years (according to him...) and looks like after National Service.

 

[Meligator]

Apologies if this has already been discussed.

Do we know if this coin is from RB's collection?
Lot 1627 - World Gold Coins - Sale 126 - Noble Numismatics

History of the coin ownership is noted as acquired by grandfather (died 1949) by succession then to the current collector's grandmother, Maria Coppenolle de Froyennes (died 1990).

RB did claim his interest in coins came from his grandfather. But MC as his grandmother? *head spinning*

I've tried ---but cannot find any other reference to a Coppenolle coin collection outside of these noble publications. Maybe I just haven't looked in the right places (not much into coins myself), but I would image there would be some other publication referencing an important coin collection. I have this gut feeling that Coppenolle Collection may be an "invented" collection, to make the coins seem more valuable than they are. I have to go back & listen but I think I remember some reference to this in the inquest. Will post if I can find what I'm thinking of.

 

[Meligator]

1942: WW Enters war orphanage in Elzet (currently in Netherlands but just over the Belgian border and close to German border but bear in mind this was all German occupied territory at the time) and did schooling there until 1951.

Then he escapes the orphanage at around age 12 (if really born in 1939), having been there as child, and somehow finds his mother/aunt in Tournai? Seems like quite an adventure for a 12 year old without access to google.

 

[vivienbee]

Then he escapes the orphanage at around age 12 (if really born in 1939), having been there as child, and somehow finds his mother/aunt in Tournai? Seems like quite an adventure for a 12 year old without access to google.

I thought RB meant that once his mother was in a more stable situation she removed him from the orphanage? But I could be totally wrong about that.

 

[Meligator]

I thought RB meant that once his mother was in a more stable situation she removed him from the orphanage? But I could be totally wrong about that.

Totally possible. I don’t think he was very specific. I’m just cynical and having a hard time believing a single word this man says.

 

[Meligator]

I seem to remember someone explaining it as the owner being RB's son not RB himself? Actually this is interesting because it implies a death date for Desiree JP David as 1949, whereas RB said in the inquest that DJPD was arrested and executed by the Germans in 1943.

That’s kinda interesting because the Don Juan was arrested in Germany (not in 1949), and not executed…but could be the origin of an RB fable such as this one.

 

[F.Knab]

Well we know he used a Fredy David passport (whether fake or stolen from brother) in 1971 to match his arrival card when he entered on the Chusan so logical to assume there are others that have not been discovered yet?

I'm not sure if Casselden is aware of the Fredy David arrival card, he would have brought it up in court. I do hope he has been informed now.

 

[gymtonic]

I'm not sure if Casselden is aware of the Fredy David arrival card, he would have brought it up in court. I do hope he has been informed now.

Except…he (Casseldon) did mention the Fredy David alias and he was the one who was suggesting the actual arrival was in 1971 not 1970

 

[gymtonic]

Then he escapes the orphanage at around age 12 (if really born in 1939), having been there as child, and somehow finds his mother/aunt in Tournai? Seems like quite an adventure for a 12 year old without access to google.

I thought he said she came to collect him after she married Wouters (or words to that effect)?

 

[gymtonic]

Yes the Hedervary name "died out " at one stage and passed to the female line . There is a long history to that name as the name of the area hence the de i am guessing .... i will find the link again if need be ...

I have had a thought that using De Hedevary came after or around the time he meet and married Ilona which makes sense as she is from Hungary and so is the de Hedervary name and area and Ilona is a name in common in the DeH lineage and popular in Hungary . It could be he has decided to use this name from then on for some reason .

Thats the thing with genealogy it focuses on the patriarch more so than the matriarch and makes it harder to decipher which grands we are talking about

I have some other ideas i am playing with for another day .

That was the theory I was playing around with myself yesterday and did some searches on Ancestry for Ilona Hedervary (just in case!) and there is one.

 

[ruby925]

Except…he (Casseldon) did mention the Fredy David alias and he was the one who was suggesting the actual arrival was in 1971 not 1970

Interesting that AC did not connect the alias to the arrival though, or questioned the name used for departure. There are quite a few things that weren't explored (was there time in prison in 1977/8?) but I think the main thing seems to be the pattern of travel, change of names and 'start a new life romance frauds'. I just hope it all leads to info about Marion.

 

[BabeBlues]

When I first heard about the JAL "conundrum" my first thought was Occam's Razor (that you mentioned before). Was it simply that at that time the JAL route was one favoured by Travel agents and being promoted? The reason I say that is that in the 1990s, after years of me doing the usual Kangaroo route as it was known (i.e. Oz-KL or Singapore-Dubai-UK route) I took up a promotional/ cheaper alternative to fly JAL via Tokyo. Promotions did tend to change the choice for frequent flyers. And on that note...as a frequent flyer himself did he join and collect frequent flyer points to use on some trips??

I don't think frequent flyer rewards started until the late 80's or early 90's for JAL or Qantas.

 

[HinterlandObserver]

Could they get scholarships for this type of thing? He said the daughter tried out for the Atlanta Olympic swim squad so must have been very good.

She also works high up in a travel company too. Such a coincidence when your father is an international con artist.

 

[gymtonic]

"Pre-Colombian Civilization at the Academy of Arts" according to podcast.
Académie Royale des Beaux-Arts in Brussels? So not university. Pre-Colombian Civilization seems too hard to make up

I had “Pre-Columbian Civilisation” at the Académie noted to follow up. Actually the evening working on “Tapestry” story also stacks up even though his story that “Belgian houses had tapestry on the walls” seemed unlikely . I actually found a source that said that traditional Belgian wall tapestry staged a revival around the 1950s and there was even a world exhibition in Lausanne, Switzerland in 1962! Hmmm…sound familiar? Even further, I noticed that Marie Coppenolle’s profession in the family tree was “Piqueuse” which is a skilled lace maker/ designer who marks the patterns for lace onto cardboard for the placement of the threads…who knew?!
IMO RB’s Walter Mitty stories always have an element of truth from somewhere with embellishments and disguising of the origin. Another MO of a cunning con!

 

[ruby925]

I don't think frequent flyer rewards started until the late 80's or early 90's for JAL or Qantas.

I think there is another grain of truth with the JAL story, in that he got discount tickets from an agent in AMS in return for coins etc. JAL may have then clamped down on the ticket issue or his contact may have left that job.

 

[ruby925]

I had “Pre-Columbian Civilisation” at the Académie noted to follow up. Actually the evening working on “Tapestry” story also stacks up even though his story that “Belgian houses had tapestry on the walls” seemed unlikely . I actually found a source that said that traditional Belgian tapestry staged a revival around the 1950s and there was even a world exhibition in Lausanne, Switzerland in 1962! Hmmm…sound familiar? Even further, I noticed that Marie Coppenolle’s profession in the family tree was “Piqueuse” which is a skilled lace maker/ designer who marks the patterns for lace onto cardboard for the placement of the threads…who knew?!
RB’s Walter Mitty stories always have an element of truth from somewhere with embellishments and disguising of the origin. Another MO of a cunning con!

I thought he meant wallpaper design rather than tapestry, wallpaper in French is tapisser, from verb tapezieren.

 

[gymtonic]

I've tried ---but cannot find any other reference to a Coppenolle coin collection outside of these noble publications. Maybe I just haven't looked in the right places (not much into coins myself), but I would image there would be some other publication referencing an important coin collection. I have this gut feeling that Coppenolle Collection may be an "invented" collection, to make the coins seem more valuable than they are. I have to go back & listen but I think I remember some reference to this in the inquest. Will post if I can find what I'm thinking of.

Or Coppenolle Collection “invented” to cover up the actual provenance of coins obtained by other means?

 

[gymtonic]

I thought he meant wallpaper design rather than tapestry, wallpaper in French is tapisser, from verb tapezieren.

Tapis (French for rug or carpet) is also from the same etymology so maybe the practice of using tapestry rugs to cover walls led to tapisser being used as the name for wallpaper. Which came first the chicken or the egg? Since Belgian wall tapestry is an actual collectors item and since, as an art, it was revived in the 1950s IMO he did mean “tapestry”. Again IMO I think he weaves things he knows to be true and different (exotic) about Belgian culture into his stories to attract and intrigue people from other countries.

 

[MrsWattle]

Ballina Coins Pty Ltd is a business The Aka family set up. I don't believe RB suddenly ceased to have an interest in coins and antiques. His good friend Barry Cooper books and coins. His accountant Vernon Ware. At the inquest RB mentioned an office in Tamar st. Ballina. He mumbled about that. A bit dismissive. Ballina Coins had a name change to Clarendon Hills Investments Pty Ltd. All of these recent businesses could lead to a money trail as to what he does, if he has set up a FamilyTrust fund and how many properties they have bought with the ill-gotten money from his Romance scam and coin sales. The disappearance of Marion Barter is my main interest.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

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I am trying to wrap my head around these 2 Desiree Davids A post not long ago showed a divorce from Alice in 1963 ( i found this incredible that Alice was with him for that long AND that he lived that long TBH )

Two different supposed death dates indicates 2 different people , because they come from 2 different trees ?
1943 is the death date recorded on MC records and (Grandfather Desiree JP David )
1949 is when the coin collection site says the grandfather died BUT it did not say the grandfather by name ??

Yep I was down the hole most of yesterday and most of it is head scratching..

the $8000 coin is the only one that shows the ownership line, all other ex Coppenolle coins don’t say that. It says grandmother so we are assuming it was RB son/ daughter but perhaps RB realised $8k is a bit much to hide from Centrelink so he has listed as though it is a grandchild.
The date of death of is interesting and no name even more No Name. Is it actually Maria’s Desire?

As for Alice 1963… divorce.. that’s really weird. And still cannot find a death date for the other Don Juan Desire.

Could he truly have still been alive in 63? It’s possible but why would Alice stay married to him?

did she have a child with him? (I haven’t found any children yet for Don Juan)..

So many marriages, it seems unlikely that there would be not even one child.