Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[mishy66]

Going with the theory that Don Juan may well be his father and he ended up living with Maria and Desire and they weren’t parents they were aunt and uncle as per D’s story.

so I’m going nuts trying to find if he is his birth father… and I have a feeling he is.

On the money with this you are - answers many a question!

 

[gymtonic]

I have that name change being on a NSW licence - was he in Aust in 1985? When did he "officially" arrive back here from UK? So many dates and changes to keep up with!

1976 is when he applies to change his name from WW to FDdH, marries DW and applies for citizenship. But they both leave Oz in that same year, and he is in and out of Oz numerous times over the next few years. Authorities seem to lose track of him and I have a note to myself in my table next to the entry for Chaim FDdH which says "How does he apply for this if he appears to be out of the country (Departs 4/12/81 - returns 2/1/86)?).

In my table that's only one of the times where he appears to be in 2 places at once! My theory is around this time he is using Europe as a base to commit crimes (MOO), with DW as a respectability cover, and leaving immediately after to place himself the other side of the globe presumably using another alias to get there and back (MOO). On arrival and departure cards he often misrepresents the time he intends to be away and the time he has actually been out of the country. He "loses" his passport on. more than one occasion too, which effectively wipes any departure and arrival stamps. Sure there would be records elsewhere of movements but a casual glance at a new passport and passport control doesn't raise any suspicions if there are no stamps to see and if no alerts have been placed.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

So more on Don Juan/Desire Charles Octave David.

his parents marriage details

 

[centred]

Can i ask if anyone has posted the time of death re Don Juan please ?

 

[BonnieB]

1976 is when he applies to change his name from WW to FDdH, marries DW and applies for citizenship. But they both leave Oz in that same year, and he is in and out of Oz numerous times over the next few years. Authorities seem to lose track of him and I have a note to myself in my table next to the entry for Chaim FDdH which says "How does he apply for this if he appears to be out of the country (Departs 4/12/81 - returns 2/1/86)?).

In my table that's only one of the times where he appears to be in 2 places at once! My theory is around this time he is using Europe as a base to commit crimes (MOO), with DW as a respectability cover, and leaving immediately after to place himself the other side of the globe presumably using another alias to get there and back (MOO). On arrival and departure cards he often misrepresents the time he intends to be away and the time he has actually been out of the country. He "loses" his passport on. more than one occasion too, which effectively wipes any departure and arrival stamps. Sure there would be records elsewhere of movements but a casual glance at a new passport and passport control doesn't raise any suspicions if there are no stamps to see and if no alerts have been placed.

Yes, if we are correct with these dates, there are other entries to Australia using false passports. He was adamant that he only made ONE return trip to attend to "weed eradication at Tamborine" (18/11/81 - 4/12/81). When he is so specific, it makes me suspicious! Sometime between Jan 85 & Jan 86 he needed the "Chaim" ID for something illegal IMO.

 

[centred]

I really hope there are no more Pj David’s or desires…

there’s often double ups online some gave more info than others snd I am blown away by how many Jean Pierres, Frederic, desires, Joseph’s and a few others there are with David surnames.

as RB loves to shuffle around christian and middle names it means going through all of them lol

** excuse the typos I’m on the iPhone lol

I only posted this one as a possible descendant from re the dates as the reason so many repeats of given names are passed through families and i also wonder if any of his coins were inherited as well , there was a Desire mentioned and yes i understand they are common names because that is how we found the ones we have and present ones i found . We have to to be able to see the trees from the forest and i know its not easy and time consuming

 

[gymtonic]

So more on Don Juan/Desire Charles Octave David.

his parents marriage details

If it helps...these birth places and marriage is closer to the French border with Italy? Switzerland (The Alps) rather than near Belgium.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

If it helps...these birth places and marriage is closer to the French border with Italy? Switzerland (The Alps) rather than near Belgium.

Yes it does help thank you!

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

I only posted this one as a possible descendant from re the dates as the reason so many repeats of given names are passed through families and i also wonder if any of his coins were inherited as well , there was a Desire mentioned and yes i understand they are common names because that is how we found the ones we have and present ones i found . We have to to be able to see the trees from the forest and i know its not easy and time consuming

Very true, sometime just walk away and come back and the trees appear

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Can i ask if anyone has posted the time of death re Don Juan please ?

Still looking for that..the record I had as a family tree doesn’t even show birthdates for either parents so the marriage certificate has at least provided that.

 

[ruby925]

I don't have this name change in my spreadsheet, can you tell me where you found this Please?

Inquest Day 7 4hrs 16mins in. AC quotes the name change, but doesn't say he had a passport in that name in 1989.

 

[ruby925]

Yes, if we are correct with these dates, there are other entries to Australia using false passports. He was adamant that he only made ONE return trip to attend to "weed eradication at Tamborine" (18/11/81 - 4/12/81). When he is so specific, it makes me suspicious! Sometime between Jan 85 & Jan 86 he needed the "Chaim" ID for something illegal IMO.

Well we know he used a Fredy David passport (whether fake or stolen from brother) in 1971 to match his arrival card when he entered on the Chusan so logical to assume there are others that have not been discovered yet?

 

[Maddieb]

Was all the travel with Japan airlines in the same name? Perhaps he could no longer use his contact there for cheapies if he retired the identity his contact knew him as.
If he had discounted tickets under multiple names, that could indicate a dodgy Japan airlines employee….

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Record from former French National police files for Don Juan.

It caught my eye due to the 1939 date.. thought how interesting did he suddenly behave after 1939… what happened in 1939…very interesting! I’ve attached it.

Then I saw they don’t go past 1940 so my excitement waned..

there’s a few files Geneanet files some that include a 3rd wife … BUT NO KiDs listed on any of them

4 May 1933 :Marriage
(with Jeanne Lucile Alice GAZEL)
27 November 1963
Divorce (with Jeanne Lucile Alice GAZEL)

He divorced in 1963.. no records are showing death date yet.. which is weird… cos he’s def 6 foot under based on dates

 

[LouLouSleuth]

I've thought RB looks a bit younger than 83, but its hard to tell.

Yes!! I’ve been meaning to post this too. I think he looks younger than 83

 

[LouLouSleuth]

noticed his signature always has an underscore/line under his surname.

According to handwriting analysis: a single underscore on a signature indicates a self-confidence and reaffirmation of the self.

 

[mishy66]

Record from former French National police files for Don Juan.

It caught my eye due to the 1939 date.. thought how interesting did he suddenly behave after 1939… what happened in 1939…very interesting! I’ve attached it.

Then I saw they don’t go past 1940 so my excitement waned..

there’s a few files Geneanet files some that include a 3rd wife … BUT NO KiDs listed on any of them

4 May 1933 :Marriage
(with Jeanne Lucile Alice GAZEL)
27 November 1963
Divorce (with Jeanne Lucile Alice GAZEL)

He divorced in 1963.. no records are showing death date yet.. which is weird… cos he’s def 6 foot under based on dates

So this is the Alice Dazel from Don Juans marriage prior to the trial?
If so then the dates would hold in regards to old mate WW...

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

So this is the Alice Dazel from Don Juans marriage prior to the trial?
If so then the dates would hold in regards to old mate WW...

Certainly would

 

[gymtonic]

I think I may be able to shed some light on why there are interchangeable surnames/ family names in RB's early life narrative, and the explanation may be of help for those searching various records.

I was listening to the beginning of RB's testimony again about the early years and picked up on something I missed before because of poor sound quality. When asked why Freddy and Desiree (jnr) took the surname David, RB started to say something about the Napoleonic Code before going in a different direction. I again had a Eureka moment when I remembered something weird about French (and thus Francophone) family names back in history pre the Napoleonic code which introduced a more regulated system. Anyhow I consulted Dr Google which gave me a link to this text which explains it more succinctly than I can at the moment: https://www.quora.com/Did-Napoleon-...ment-the-same-number-of-surnames-as-back-then

TEXT:
"There have been family names for a long, long time across the whole world. What Napoleon introduced was the bureaucratic requirement for them as part of the Code Napoleon, which was an extensive set of laws used in all the territories he controlled, starting, obviously, with France in 1804.

It probably sounds strange to us now, but until the 18th century there was very little official record keeping compared to what we take for granted now. For example, there was no legal requirement to record births, deaths or marriages in much of Europe before then, though some parishes, burghs, towns and cities did keep records of them. It wasn't until 1752 that marriages had to recorded in Britain.

The same goes for family names. Although they were in common use, there was no legal requirement for them in France and not many elsewhere in Europe, and neither was there the state bureaucracy to record and track them. Carrying your father's surname was traditional but apart from that, your surname (or even lack of surname) was basically a matter of personal choice. If you ever trace your family history back to Europe, you'll come across this once you get as far back as the early 18th century.

The whole purpose of the Code Napoleon was to create a standard set of laws to enable effective and efficient government, which is something the pre-Revolutionary Ancien Régime lacked. Enforcing consistent surnames were a part of that.

As for the number of family names remaining constant - no. Rare family names can die out as families marry into more common names. New family names can also be created through legal name changes, depending on the country.

Interestingly, many surnames changed during the waves of immigration into the US during the early 20th century. Many people arrived without documents, or took new names for their new lives, and many, especially from non-English speaking countries simply had their names misheard by immigration officers, then subsequently spelled and pronounced differently on their new US documents.

.... it’s worth adding that the Bayonne decree (28th of July 1808) made it mandatory for Jews in the States ruled by Napoleon to adopt and officially register a family surname (as opposed to using a patronymic). Not only was this an important step toward the assimilation of Jews into society in France (including present day Belgium and the left bank of the Rhine), Northern Italy, Switzerland and other countries who looked to Napoleonic legislation as the model for their own, it would also explain the origin of the question. As Steven Wilds says, family names predate the Napoleonic era. The Emperor’s contribution was to make them compulsory, as part of the organisation of civil society on a secular foundation."

For more information on that topic, you can look up this article by Ben Weider, who was Jewish himself and founder of the International Napoleonic Society
"

So...
(a) maybe there was a family story that 'way back' the father's family name was de Hedevary but it wasn't recorded on any documents?
(b) inconsistency in taking the Coppernolle, David, Wouters name as your family name regardless of who was the biological father might not be considered as weird in that family culture as it sounds to us today?
(c) it makes tracking down the names very difficult
(d) referring to the second highlighted point, it could explain why RB doesn't consider name changes that strange? of course illegal motives are not excused but it might explain why RB said on a number of occasions...why not, if it is legal?

Don't get me wrong, I am not justifying it...IMO his MO is of a cunning con artist who exploits people and opportunities...it just sheds light on why he might be able to convince himself (and others) that it's OK.

 

[chicken96]

Apologies if this has already been discussed.

Do we know if this coin is from RB's collection?
Lot 1627 - World Gold Coins - Sale 126 - Noble Numismatics

History of the coin ownership is noted as acquired by grandfather (died 1949) by succession then to the current collector's grandmother, Maria Coppenolle de Froyennes (died 1990).

RB did claim his interest in coins came from his grandfather. But MC as his grandmother? *head spinning*