Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[mishy66]

This is a fascinating article about Desire David (translate to English to read): Claire Deloustal and the don juan of the pullmanns (mestenerzic.fr)

Omg this is extraordinary!

SO many similarities to WW stories, names and places.
Along with your other finds I think you have found his father! IMO

Roughly looking at dates this DD would have been around 44 when WW was born ( if he is to be believed) so VERY plausible!

Please send this to the tip line Tips — The Lady Vanishes Podcast

And congratulate yourself on an incredible find!!!!

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I love Sammy J

A bit of levity from me…Sammy J’s (Oz comedian) “Australia’s first tourist” comedy sketch popped up this morning. So topical for this thread that I couldn’t resist sharing it!

 

[ruby925]

Anything is possible in this crazy story of WW!
But there is evidence of his Names of Many Colours -

This was the latest timeline put up by @Peralta

We now have all 10 passports in 8 different names used in Australia

1939 – Willy Coppenolle (alleged name at orphanage)
Mar 1969 – Willy Wouters (Belgian passport 1, arr Perth via UK, residency)
Mar 1971 – Fredy David (possible o/s passport, arr Aus on Chusan from UK)
Feb 1976 – Frederick David de Hedervary (Aus passport 2,3,4, married DW, citizenship)
1976-77 – Roger Lauzoney (possible 0/s passport, ID jail Lux also with FDdH passport)
1985 – Chaim Frederick David Dehedervary (NSW license)
1987 – Richard Lloyd West (Aus passport 5, name change after long absence overseas)
24 Aug 1988 – Fernand Nocolas Remakel (QLD license)
2 Oct 1992 – Fernand Nocolas Remakel (QLD license renewed)
1992 – Richard Westbury (Aus passport 6)
10 Dec 1994 – FN Remakel (Le Courrier rencontre)
17 Jun 1997 – Richard Westbury (dep Aus) (Marion dep 22 Jun)
31 Jul 1997 – Richard Westbury (arr Aus) (Marion arr 2 Aug)
Late 1990s – de Havardary (as known by GGB)
1998-99 – Ric West (as known by JO)
Nov 1999 – Rich Richard (Aus passport 7, travel with JO)
May 2002 – Frederick David de Hedervary (Aus passport 8, name change to previous name)
2011 – Willy David Coppenolle (Aus passport 9, CBA bank)
Current – Ric Blum (Aus passport 10, name change possibly when podcast came out)

I found it interesting that he did an official name change from FDH back to WW in Dec89, wondering whether this was for financial reasons back in Europe? 20 years since he had used WW as name (as far as I can see).

 

[mishy66]

Just to clarify - I posted the train stories earlier about Desire David. According to this family tree, RB is the son of Desire. Has someone found that the train Desire IS NOT the same person as RBs father? Maria Coppenolle : Family tree by Didier VANCOPPENOLLE (vancop) - Geneanet

Looking at the birth dates of both DD's there is a 10 yr difference so they aren't likely to be the same person ( genealogy can have variables + or - of 2 or 3 years because of human error / calculations etc but 10 years is way off in my opinion of doing genealogy for 15 yrs researching my own families. '

I think you have found WW REAL father with your research!
IMO

 

[Procrastinator]

This is a fascinating article about Desire David (translate to English to read): Claire Deloustal and the don juan of the pullmanns (mestenerzic.fr)

Oh gosh .... at the end, the grandson's name!!

 

[mishy66]

I found it interesting that he did an official name change from FDH back to WW in Dec89, wondering whether this was for financial reasons back in Europe? 20 years since he had used WW as name (as far as I can see).

Whhoaa that is interesting!
So many small things like this gets lost in my notes. I think I need to go with the spreadsheet people and make some sense of it all LOL.

His 'Secretary' must be the best in the world to keep up with all the wheeling and dealings!

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

This is a fascinating article about Desire David (translate to English to read): Claire Deloustal and the don juan of the pullmanns (mestenerzic.fr)

Fantastic it confirmed the name

 

[KittensAugustus]

Oh gosh .... at the end, the grandson's name!!

Actually I think the author may be referring to Clair's grandson but the website has translated the word his instead of her.

 

[mishy66]

Actually I think the author may be referring to Clair's grandson but the website has translated the word his instead of her.

Yes the translation says his a few times but after reading it over and over it is referencing Clair.
But there are so many connections to WW story ( including I see that a Gaëtan Viaris de Lesegno is a professional photographer - possibly not Clair's Grandson they are referencing) but the stories from WW in relation to this person is just so incredible!

 

[Meligator]

My understanding of the June scenario is that RB denied everything, including knowing Marion, the Remakel driving license etc and then went to the station the following day to explain he didn't want to say anything about affairs in front of his wife. By the next interview, he/they have had a chance to realise this was a big mistake...By denying it ever took place, RB cuts off the line of questioning by counsel. MOO of course. Others may have a much better take on this.

Just spitballing here, but possibly he said things in June that are provably false and lying in a police statement is probably a crime. So better to just say he didn’t give that statement (there was no video apparently so may actually be hard to prove he gave the statement although no one believes him).

 

[Meligator]

Yesterday a link from trove was posted with an old article about desire… further down the article it spoke of his marriage to Claire Deloustal…



So as desire Charles octave David married Claire Deloustal as in the link I’ve shared above.. I’d say this is the desire from the train.

There are heaps of Desire David’s in either Christian or middle names from what I’ve seen researching

Plus the desire in question used lots of names, so a desire by a different name could still be him.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Looking at the birth dates of both DD's there is a 10 yr difference so they aren't likely to be the same person ( genealogy can have variables + or - of 2 or 3 years because of human error / calculations etc but 10 years is way off in my opinion of doing genealogy for 15 yrs researching my own families. '

I think you have found WW REAL father with your research!
IMO

Looking at the birth dates of both DD's there is a 10 yr difference so they aren't likely to be the same person ( genealogy can have variables + or - of 2 or 3 years because of human error / calculations etc but 10 years is way off in my opinion of doing genealogy for 15 yrs researching my own families. '

I think you have found WW REAL father with your research!
IMO

real father is which one?

presuming you mean Not Don Juan?

 

[chinguetti]

During the inquest, when WW was sprouting ridiculous nonsense about a belly dancing career in Europe, he said that it was not unprecedented, there was a women who did before. I think he was referring to Mata Hari. A dutch confidence trickster with an amazing and tragic life.

Mata Hari - Wikipedia

I think WW grew up admiring and studying the strategies of confidence tricksters like Désiré David and Mata Hari. They would have been widely discussed and still within living memory when he was growing up in Belgium.

 

[mishy66]

real father is which one?

presuming you mean Not Don Juan?

All these DD's are as confusing as RB's life hahahhaa!

Here is the DD from the Maria Copponelle Genealogy tree:
Family tree of Désiré Jean Pierre Joseph David

Désiré Jean Pierre Joseph David

• Born 13 December 1905 - Gelinden, Limburg (B)
• Deceased 17 March 1943 - Tournai, Hainaut (B), aged 37 years old

The family tree we have been connecting to for so long....

************************************************************************************************
And here is Désiré Charles Octave David from that link put up by @KittensAugustus
Claire Deloustal et le don juan des pullmann

Born in November 1895, son of an academic, twice wounded during the war of ...... charged in 1926 with espionage and fraud for the benefit of Germany. Claimed in the Reich while he had taken refuge in Dusseldorf, he was only extradited, and therefore tried, on the sole charge of fraud. It was during the 1934 trial that we got to know the character...... ( it is an incredible story)

The tree you put up
Family tree of Desiré Charles Octave DAVID

IS THIS Désiré Charles Octave David ! ( Désiré Charles Octave David, called the "Don Juan of sleepers")

You have the tree and Kittens has the back stories!

 

[gymtonic]

Actually I think the author may be referring to Clair's grandson but the website has translated the word his instead of her.

In French the possessive pronoun agrees with the gender of the noun and not the person, so "son" petit-fils could refer to either his or her grand-son.

 

[gymtonic]

I found it interesting that he did an official name change from FDH back to WW in Dec89, wondering whether this was for financial reasons back in Europe? 20 years since he had used WW as name (as far as I can see).

I don't have this name change in my spreadsheet, can you tell me where you found this Please?

 

[gymtonic]

Whhoaa that is interesting!
So many small things like this gets lost in my notes. I think I need to go with the spreadsheet people and make some sense of it all LOL.

His 'Secretary' must be the best in the world to keep up with all the wheeling and dealings!

I don't have this name change in my spreadsheet.

 

[mishy66]

I don't have this name change in my spreadsheet.

No I am saying I need to make one and do it in mine!

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Mata Hari was convicted of being a spy. And that seems to be more and more in dispute.
I've read a lot about her and like many entertainers she gave various accounts of her background.

You may as well say that Merle Oberon was a confidence trickster or any other stage or movie performer who changed their name and kept other details secret.

Mata Hari - Wikipedia

I think he was referring to Mata Hari. A dutch confidence trickster with an amazing and tragic life.

 

[gymtonic]

No I am saying I need to make one and do it in mine!

Ah OK, but still....if there was another official name change in from FdH back to WW Dec89 I have also missed it because I haven't noted it before in my spreadsheet!