Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

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Apologies if this has already been discussed.

Do we know if this coin is from RB's collection?
Lot 1627 - World Gold Coins - Sale 126 - Noble Numismatics

History of the coin ownership is noted as acquired by grandfather (died 1949) by succession then to the current collector's grandmother, Maria Coppenolle de Froyennes (died 1990).

RB did claim his interest in coins came from his grandfather. But MC as his grandmother? *head spinning*:confused:
I seem to remember someone explaining it as the owner being RB's son not RB himself? Actually this is interesting because it implies a death date for Desiree JP David as 1949, whereas RB said in the inquest that DJPD was arrested and executed by the Germans in 1943.
 
Apologies if this has already been discussed.

Do we know if this coin is from RB's collection?
Lot 1627 - World Gold Coins - Sale 126 - Noble Numismatics

History of the coin ownership is noted as acquired by grandfather (died 1949) by succession then to the current collector's grandmother, Maria Coppenolle de Froyennes (died 1990).

RB did claim his interest in coins came from his grandfather. But MC as his grandmother? *head spinning*:confused:
Current collector may be one of his children IMO
 
Apologies if this has already been discussed.

Do we know if this coin is from RB's collection?
Lot 1627 - World Gold Coins - Sale 126 - Noble Numismatics

History of the coin ownership is noted as acquired by grandfather (died 1949) by succession then to the current collector's grandmother, Maria Coppenolle de Froyennes (died 1990).

RB did claim his interest in coins came from his grandfather. But MC as his grandmother? *head spinning*:confused:
Maybe son of RB the seller?? It was passed in anyway; over valued @ $8000 perhaps?
 
On Inquest Day Seven at 40:44 he says he was in a “war orphanage in…” can anyone identify what place he says?
1942: WW Enters war orphanage in Elzet (currently in Netherlands but just over the Belgian border and close to German border but bear in mind this was all German occupied territory at the time) and did schooling there until 1951.
 
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I seem to remember someone explaining it as the owner being RB's son not RB himself? Actually this is interesting because it implies a death date for Desiree JP David as 1949, whereas RB said in the inquest that DJPD was arrested and executed by the Germans in 1943.

I am trying to wrap my head around these 2 Desiree Davids A post not long ago showed a divorce from Alice in 1963 ( i found this incredible that Alice was with him for that long AND that he lived that long TBH )

Two different supposed death dates indicates 2 different people , because they come from 2 different trees ?
1943 is the death date recorded on MC records and (Grandfather Desiree JP David )
1949 is when the coin collection site says the grandfather died BUT it did not say the grandfather by name ??
 
I think I may be able to shed some light on why there are interchangeable surnames/ family names in RB's early life narrative, and the explanation may be of help for those searching various records.

So...
(a) maybe there was a family story that 'way back' the father's family name was de Hedevary but it wasn't recorded on any documents?
(b) inconsistency in taking the Coppernolle, David, Wouters name as your family name regardless of who was the biological father might not be considered as weird in that family culture as it sounds to us today?
(c) it makes tracking down the names very difficult
(d) referring to the second highlighted point, it could explain why RB doesn't consider name changes that strange? of course illegal motives are not excused but it might explain why RB said on a number of occasions...why not, if it is legal?

Don't get me wrong, I am not justifying it...IMO his MO is of a cunning con artist who exploits people and opportunities...it just sheds light on why he might be able to convince himself (and others) that it's OK.
I could buy into this idea more if the Napoleonic code didn't come into play in Belgium in 1804. That's a very long time and a lot of generations (5ish poss) in between that would have come to view this system as the norm. I do agree with point a) that there may have been a family story of the de Hedevary name that wasn't recorded on official documents, but beyond that I can't see it informing the narrative of RB's life and seeming run of the mill to him to change his name?
 
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I am trying to wrap my head around these 2 Desiree Davids A post not long ago showed a divorce from Alice in 1963 ( i found this incredible that Alice was with him for that long AND that he lived that long TBH )

Two different supposed death dates indicates 2 different people , because they come from 2 different trees ?
1943 is the death date recorded on MC records and (Grandfather Desiree JP David )
1949 is when the coin collection site says the grandfather died BUT it did not say the grandfather by name ??

only that it was passed onto the grandmother Maria Coppenolle
 
On Inquest Day Seven at 40:44 he says he was in a “war orphanage in…” can anyone identify what place he says?
I've been wondering, with a surname like DAVID, could it have been a Jewish orphanage. During the war, many parents hid children of Jewish heritage during the holocaust. Might explain a few things IMO
 
I could buy into this idea more if the Napoleonic code didn't come into play in Belgium in 1804. That's a very long time and a lot of generations (5ish poss) in between that would have come to view this system as the norm. I do agree with point a) that there may have been a family story of the de Hedevary name that wasn't recorded on official documents, but beyond that I can't see it informing the narrative of RB's life and seeming run of the mill to him to change his name?

Yes the Hedervary name "died out " at one stage and passed to the female line . There is a long history to that name as the name of the area hence the de i am guessing .... i will find the link again if need be ...

I have had a thought that using De Hedevary came after or around the time he meet and married Ilona which makes sense as she is from Hungary and so is the de Hedervary name and area and Ilona is a name in common in the DeH lineage and popular in Hungary . It could be he has decided to use this name from then on for some reason .

Thats the thing with genealogy it focuses on the patriarch more so than the matriarch and makes it harder to decipher which grands we are talking about

I have some other ideas i am playing with for another day .:eek::eek:
 
I've been wondering, with a surname like DAVID, could it have been a Jewish orphanage. During the war, many parents hid children of Jewish heritage during the holocaust. Might explain a few things IMO

Yes adding the name David is claiming the protection of the David Shield so the adoption of the name is claiming the ideology of the utopia of King David and the times of Solomon . so it is not technically Surname really , It is all very interesting

What does Shield of David mean? definition, meaning and audio pronunciation (Free English Language Dictionary)
 
1976 is when he applies to change his name from WW to FDdH, marries DW and applies for citizenship. But they both leave Oz in that same year, and he is in and out of Oz numerous times over the next few years. Authorities seem to lose track of him and I have a note to myself in my table next to the entry for Chaim FDdH which says "How does he apply for this if he appears to be out of the country (Departs 4/12/81 - returns 2/1/86)?).

In my table that's only one of the times where he appears to be in 2 places at once! My theory is around this time he is using Europe as a base to commit crimes (MOO), with DW as a respectability cover, and leaving immediately after to place himself the other side of the globe presumably using another alias to get there and back (MOO). On arrival and departure cards he often misrepresents the time he intends to be away and the time he has actually been out of the country. He "loses" his passport on. more than one occasion too, which effectively wipes any departure and arrival stamps. Sure there would be records elsewhere of movements but a casual glance at a new passport and passport control doesn't raise any suspicions if there are no stamps to see and if no alerts have been placed.

Totally agree. My spreadsheet shows the same thing: the driver's license renewal for Chaim occurs when RB is not officially in AUS. One of his AUS passports -- forget which one-- was issued in Bonn at the Australian Embassy. My US passport was stolen in a car park in UK. For years I had a US passport issued in London, and I was always stopped and questioned why. I wonder if RB suffered the same thing for his antics. Or not.
 
I think I may be able to shed some light on why there are interchangeable surnames/ family names in RB's early life narrative, and the explanation may be of help for those searching various records.

I was listening to the beginning of RB's testimony again about the early years and picked up on something I missed before because of poor sound quality. When asked why Freddy and Desiree (jnr) took the surname David, RB started to say something about the Napoleonic Code before going in a different direction. I again had a Eureka moment when I remembered something weird about French (and thus Francophone) family names back in history pre the Napoleonic code which introduced a more regulated system. Anyhow I consulted Dr Google which gave me a link to this text which explains it more succinctly than I can at the moment: https://www.quora.com/Did-Napoleon-...ment-the-same-number-of-surnames-as-back-then

TEXT:
"There have been family names for a long, long time across the whole world. What Napoleon introduced was the bureaucratic requirement for them as part of the Code Napoleon, which was an extensive set of laws used in all the territories he controlled, starting, obviously, with France in 1804.

It probably sounds strange to us now, but until the 18th century there was very little official record keeping compared to what we take for granted now. For example, there was no legal requirement to record births, deaths or marriages in much of Europe before then, though some parishes, burghs, towns and cities did keep records of them. It wasn't until 1752 that marriages had to recorded in Britain.

The same goes for family names. Although they were in common use, there was no legal requirement for them in France and not many elsewhere in Europe, and neither was there the state bureaucracy to record and track them. Carrying your father's surname was traditional but apart from that, your surname (or even lack of surname) was basically a matter of personal choice. If you ever trace your family history back to Europe, you'll come across this once you get as far back as the early 18th century.

The whole purpose of the Code Napoleon was to create a standard set of laws to enable effective and efficient government, which is something the pre-Revolutionary Ancien Régime lacked. Enforcing consistent surnames were a part of that.

As for the number of family names remaining constant - no. Rare family names can die out as families marry into more common names. New family names can also be created through legal name changes, depending on the country.

Interestingly, many surnames changed during the waves of immigration into the US during the early 20th century. Many people arrived without documents, or took new names for their new lives, and many, especially from non-English speaking countries simply had their names misheard by immigration officers, then subsequently spelled and pronounced differently on their new US documents.

.... it’s worth adding that the Bayonne decree (28th of July 1808) made it mandatory for Jews in the States ruled by Napoleon to adopt and officially register a family surname (as opposed to using a patronymic). Not only was this an important step toward the assimilation of Jews into society in France (including present day Belgium and the left bank of the Rhine), Northern Italy, Switzerland and other countries who looked to Napoleonic legislation as the model for their own, it would also explain the origin of the question. As Steven Wilds says, family names predate the Napoleonic era. The Emperor’s contribution was to make them compulsory, as part of the organisation of civil society on a secular foundation."

For more information on that topic, you can look up this article by Ben Weider, who was Jewish himself and founder of the International Napoleonic Society
"

So...
(a) maybe there was a family story that 'way back' the father's family name was de Hedevary but it wasn't recorded on any documents?
(b) inconsistency in taking the Coppernolle, David, Wouters name as your family name regardless of who was the biological father might not be considered as weird in that family culture as it sounds to us today?
(c) it makes tracking down the names very difficult
(d) referring to the second highlighted point, it could explain why RB doesn't consider name changes that strange? of course illegal motives are not excused but it might explain why RB said on a number of occasions...why not, if it is legal?

Don't get me wrong, I am not justifying it...IMO his MO is of a cunning con artist who exploits people and opportunities...it just sheds light on why he might be able to convince himself (and others) that it's OK.

I really love this. Thank you! I think there's an (e) which could be added to your list. RB fancies himself as erudite. (He studied something elitist at University.) How best to explain the mess of family names, which may be from laziness, poverty, criminal activity, or too many casual marriages-- than by saying it's "Napoloeanic!" It's an imperious remark to make in court, and only one person of the millions listening bothered to look it up and that's YOU, @gymtonic! My regards!
 
I really love this. Thank you! I think there's an (e) which could be added to your list. RB fancies himself as erudite. (He studied something elitist at University.) How best to explain the mess of family names, which may be from laziness, poverty, criminal activity, or too many casual marriages-- than by saying it's "Napoloeanic!" It's an imperious remark to make in court, and only one person of the millions listening bothered to look it up and that's YOU, @gymtonic! My regards!

I wonder which University and what name he was using if it’s true? Was it usual that children from orphanages went to University?
 
TBH, I think Anglophones underestimate how common certain Francophone names are when they sound so exotic. Jean, Pierre, Michel, Frederic etc are the equivalent of John, Peter, Michael, Fred. And then there are the hyphenated ones…I would go out on a limb and say Jean-Pierre is up there with the most common traditional male name. Even Désiré, although it has gone out of fashion a bit now, was more common for previous generations than might be thought. And I said in another post the names Bernard and DuPont are common too. In Belgium Wouters is in the top ten names and Willy is common too. And then there’s the female name Marie…again probably one of the most common Francophone female names singularly and in combination: Anne-Marie, Marie-Claude off the top of my head.

Searching for some of the names is a bit like trying to find a particular John or Jane Smith!

This is why I am so interested in the Roger Lauzoney alias. Roger is not as common and Lauzoney (spelled that way) doesn’t even exist in Ancestry searches! Richard Lloyd Westbury also interests me as the name Lloyd is pretty specifically Welsh.

@gymtonic - Thank you for this, too. I wrote something similar yesterday and deleted it. Researching Francophone names is a minefield. From my own experience: I helped an adopted friend find her birth family. Turned out her birth father was French Canadian, although she was born in Texas. His name sounded so exotic to me, I thought it would be easy to research his family. That's when I learned how few Francophone names are unusual. Every family I found used the same names over and over, and they were exactly like everybody else's names. First cousins all named the same names as second cousins. It was the hardest genealogy work I ever did.

RB may have played with the notion of common names and uncommon names for his aliases. There are advantages to both!
 
I wonder which University and what name he was using if it’s true? Was it usual that children from orphanages went to University?

"Pre-Colombian Civilization at the Academy of Arts" according to podcast.
Académie Royale des Beaux-Arts in Brussels? So not university. Pre-Colombian Civilization seems too hard to make up :)
 
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