Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[Estelle]

Always possible eh? IMO If the chronological order was GGB, JO and then MB it would make sense, but with the chronological order as MB then GGB and JO it's a little more tenuous MOO. I mean after MB, GGB is linked directly to FdH via an AVO so it's a bit risky? Of course getting away with so many name changes to that point could explain overconfidence?

I am very interested in the strategies that conmen use on their victims.

The 7 Psychological Principles of Scams:

• Distraction. Attention is like spotlight, which means when it's pointing in one direction it pretty much ignores everything else. ...
• Social compliance. ...
• Herd principle. ...
• Dishonesty. ...
• Deception. ...
• Need and greed. ...
• Time pressure.

How do you spot a con artist in a relationship? It's easy to spot a con artist if you know what to look for:

He asks you questions about your financial status or he reveals his quickly. He boasts of financial assets, future wealth or possessions. His answers to your questions are evasive and sketchy and he constantly has excuses for everything.

Scam artists play to emotions, not intelligence. “People who are going through times of extreme life change, for instance, are very vulnerable to con artists because you lose your equilibrium. You end up more susceptible to all types of cons when you, for instance, have lost a job… but positive changes also make you vulnerable—you start being more credulous of good things in general. Other easy targets? The lonely, the elderly, and the insecure are notoriously easy targets.

Con artists get you talking—a lot
The most successful cons hinge on desire—what can the con artist offer the victim that will make them abandon rational thought for the promise of fantasy? The best way to discover someone’s desires: Ask. Victims don’t ask a lot of questions; they answer a lot of questions. Victims don’t look for why the offer is a scam; they look for why the offer will make them money. They want you to make them feel good so they can pull the trigger. A scammer not only needs to be a master actor but a master listener.

Con artists show their “flaws”
Con men tend to be great talkers. And speech can be manipulated just as effectively as body language to build a quick sense of familiarity between scammer and victim. A good con man will put his victim at ease by telling stories that reveal his own anxieties, faults, and desires, thereby fabricating what feels like common ground. As research shows, we’re quick to trust people we see as imperfect (like ourselves).

Con artists let you win—at first
The easiest way to build up a victim’s confidence is to give them a taste of reward. To that end, many scams begin by letting the victim win something—be it money, affection, social acceptance, etc.

Con artists use the time principle to persuade their victims to act quickly before rational thought and self-control can kick in.

Scams start by asking the victim for progressively larger favours, starting small.

Con artists dress the part
“This was lesson No. 1,” admits one retired conman, “Swindling is really acting, and you play a character who will help you appear legitimate, confident, and successful … even when you are not.” At age 17, Frank Abagnale famously bought a pilot’s uniform so he could pass fake checks at any hotel, bank, or business in the country without question. “Airline pilots are men to be admired and respected,” he wrote, “Men to be trusted. Men of means. And you don’t expect an airline pilot to be a local resident. Or a check swindler.”

Con artists rely on your embarrassment
“It’s crazy how often you have people who, even when you present them with evidence that they’ve been the victim of a scam, refuse to believe it,” says Konnikova. “We often don’t want to let other people know, because we’re embarrassed.” Such was the case when early con man Victor Lustig convinced a Paris metal dealer that he was selling the Eiffel Tower for scrap to the highest bidder. Lustig conned the man out of a $70,000 bribe in exchange for rights to demolish the Tower and take possession of 7,000 tons of metal. Of course, this was all a lie. But the dealer never reported the scam; he was too ashamed.

12 Tricks Con Artists Use to Win Your Trust

IMO RB used many of these strategies on MB, JO and GGB. If one didn't work, he used another. The ones he used on Marion happened to work.

 

[mishy66]

Then he escapes the orphanage at around age 12 (if really born in 1939), having been there as child, and somehow finds his mother/aunt in Tournai? Seems like quite an adventure for a 12 year old without access to google.

hahaha! I just love this ! SO true

 

[brjakj]

The article is definitely about Marion, I just can't open it because when you google that exact phrase and click the link it comes up with an error page or just takes you to the landing page of the news site.
"Missing mum's secret lover allegedly tried to lead others to 'financial ruin'. The secret North Coast lover of missing woman Marion Barter allegedly scammed..." and that's as far as I can see.

See attached.

 

[mishy66]

I'm not sure if Casselden is aware of the Fredy David arrival card, he would have brought it up in court. I do hope he has been informed now.

They have the info.
I don't think Casselden would have been playing all his cards at that inquest. There was a lot he could have delved into with RBs inconsistencies but he let it go. Just letting RB hang himself.

 

[Estelle]

In the screen shot original post I’m seeing feb 2022 northern star

Oh, that makes a difference. I assumed it would have been 2020 when the Coles article was printed. They probably named him as FdH (not Ric Blum) as that was the name as he was known as in Ballina. Perhaps more locals could have come forward after that article in the local press was published. Let's hope so.

 

[mishy66]

She also works high up in a travel company too. Such a coincidence when your father is an international con artist.

To be fair to RB adult children, they were around late teens when RB went OS with MB, so much younger when all his wheeling and dealings were happening back and forth OS.

 

[mishy66]

Or Coppenolle Collection “invented” to cover up the actual provenance of coins obtained by other means?

This has always been my thinking too.

 

[mishy66]

Yep I was down the hole most of yesterday and most of it is head scratching..

the $8000 coin is the only one that shows the ownership line, all other ex Coppenolle coins don’t say that. It says grandmother so we are assuming it was RB son/ daughter but perhaps RB realised $8k is a bit much to hide from Centrelink so he has listed as though it is a grandchild.
The date of death of is interesting and no name even more No Name. Is it actually Maria’s Desire?

As for Alice 1963… divorce.. that’s really weird. And still cannot find a death date for the other Don Juan Desire.

Could he truly have still been alive in 63? It’s possible but why would Alice stay married to him?

did she have a child with him? (I haven’t found any children yet for Don Juan)..

So many marriages, it seems unlikely that there would be not even one child.

Well we know there is at least one.... it is stated in his trial...
"David strategically married Alice Dazel, daughter of a magistrate who gave evidence that David had turned out a model husband and father".
Cunning to marry a magistrates daughter just prior to trial right

 

[Estelle]

In light of the fact RB spoke of " Nureyev "when discussing this dance evidence and referenced some town where he was known to be acknowledged and even said the word Ballet , i wonder where the Belly dancer came into it other than it well may have been misunderstood by others as being "Belly"

I remember thinking why it wasn't corrected and every one here just ran with it because they thought it was funny , so not such a silly connection IMO

I always thought RB meant belly dancing because women in their 50s usually don't do ballet professionally unless they are ballet teachers whereas belly dancing is viewed by many men as being erotic with the woman dancing with boa feathers around her neck like a snake in the privacy of their bedroom - hence he said he was "bewitched".

On the other hand, ballet dancing is probably not viewed as "erotic". However, JO said at the inquest that RB was trying to lure her to sell her house and buy a property in the French Riviera and for GGB, it was Paris. There was never any mention of belly or ballet dancing in JO's account so IMO he wanted to delete that story and came up with the belly dancing and getting agents instead as he did not want to be associated with the idea of having tried to lure JO into selling her house. DdH had mentioned that he told her that GGB was the one who was the dancer. Maybe he changed the story he told his wife from ballet to belly dancing for the inquest. IMO RB came up with the belly dancing story as a distraction.

I'm not sure why he felt the need to mention Nureyev because IMO he didn't say he went to Surrey with JO, did he? Nureyev lived at several London addresses, spending some months in a rented Kensington flat with his long-term partner Erik Bruhn, and staying for a short time in Fonteyn's home in 1962, also in Kensington. He bought a house near Richmond Park (which is in Surrey ten miles from London city) in 1967, but found the semi-rural location too isolating. I think that was another distraction.

 

[mishy66]

+-

Two different supposed death dates indicates 2 different people , because they come from 2 different trees ?
1943 is the death date recorded on MC records and (Grandfather Desiree JP David )
1949 is when the coin collection site says the grandfather died BUT it did not say the grandfather by name ??

I dont believe anything that comes out of his mouth if it is about him.
I wouldn't be worrying about old mate putting forth a different date of death on a coin site. In the big scheme of things this death date doesn't make any difference to a 8G coin if it had of sold IMO

 

[Estelle]

See attached.

Thanks for finding this article. I thought it was a good account of the inquest up to that date.

 

[gymtonic]

I am very interested in the strategies that conmen use on their victims.

The 7 Psychological Principles of Scams:

• Distraction. Attention is like spotlight, which means when it's pointing in one direction it pretty much ignores everything else. ...
• Social compliance. ...
• Herd principle. ...
• Dishonesty. ...
• Deception. ...
• Need and greed. ...
• Time pressure.

How do you spot a con artist in a relationship? It's easy to spot a con artist if you know what to look for:

He asks you questions about your financial status or he reveals his quickly. He boasts of financial assets, future wealth or possessions. His answers to your questions are evasive and sketchy and he constantly has excuses for everything.

Scam artists play to emotions, not intelligence. “People who are going through times of extreme life change, for instance, are very vulnerable to con artists because you lose your equilibrium. You end up more susceptible to all types of cons when you, for instance, have lost a job… but positive changes also make you vulnerable—you start being more credulous of good things in general. Other easy targets? The lonely, the elderly, and the insecure are notoriously easy targets.

Con artists get you talking—a lot
The most successful cons hinge on desire—what can the con artist offer the victim that will make them abandon rational thought for the promise of fantasy? The best way to discover someone’s desires: Ask. Victims don’t ask a lot of questions; they answer a lot of questions. Victims don’t look for why the offer is a scam; they look for why the offer will make them money. They want you to make them feel good so they can pull the trigger. A scammer not only needs to be a master actor but a master listener.

Con artists show their “flaws”
Con men tend to be great talkers. And speech can be manipulated just as effectively as body language to build a quick sense of familiarity between scammer and victim. A good con man will put his victim at ease by telling stories that reveal his own anxieties, faults, and desires, thereby fabricating what feels like common ground. As research shows, we’re quick to trust people we see as imperfect (like ourselves).

Con artists let you win—at first
The easiest way to build up a victim’s confidence is to give them a taste of reward. To that end, many scams begin by letting the victim win something—be it money, affection, social acceptance, etc.

Con artists use the time principle to persuade their victims to act quickly before rational thought and self-control can kick in.

Scams start by asking the victim for progressively larger favours, starting small.

Con artists dress the part
“This was lesson No. 1,” admits one retired conman, “Swindling is really acting, and you play a character who will help you appear legitimate, confident, and successful … even when you are not.” At age 17, Frank Abagnale famously bought a pilot’s uniform so he could pass fake checks at any hotel, bank, or business in the country without question. “Airline pilots are men to be admired and respected,” he wrote, “Men to be trusted. Men of means. And you don’t expect an airline pilot to be a local resident. Or a check swindler.”

Con artists rely on your embarrassment
“It’s crazy how often you have people who, even when you present them with evidence that they’ve been the victim of a scam, refuse to believe it,” says Konnikova. “We often don’t want to let other people know, because we’re embarrassed.” Such was the case when early con man Victor Lustig convinced a Paris metal dealer that he was selling the Eiffel Tower for scrap to the highest bidder. Lustig conned the man out of a $70,000 bribe in exchange for rights to demolish the Tower and take possession of 7,000 tons of metal. Of course, this was all a lie. But the dealer never reported the scam; he was too ashamed.

12 Tricks Con Artists Use to Win Your Trust

IMO RB used many of these strategies on MB, JO and GGB. If one didn't work, he used another. The ones he used on Marion happened to work.

Yes! Great summary and reminder
Also on the flip side...the motivation for the con artist. There's the assumption that the con is just about financial gain when it could also be the thrill of the risk and proving that you are smarter?

 

[ChrysStevenson]

Yes! Great summary and reminder
Also on the flip side...the motivation for the con artist. There's the assumption that the con is just about financial gain when it could also be the thrill of the risk and proving that you are smarter?

I agree. I think RB is motivated by the idea he is an exotic international playboy and more clever than his victims and the police. While he may make some money with his scams, he’s not very good at it, and I don’t think that’s his primary motive.

He certainly isn’t a big spender. The grifts just seem to finance the next adventure.

 

[gymtonic]

So trying to make sense of some of RB's statements during inquest. First he says he's not completely sure of his birth name, then says he has the birth record (Willy Coppenolle). But then says the records of his birth were destroyed in a bombing. If he has his birth record, would the name on it, be the name he was given at birth? Then, throughout his adult life, he goes by the name "rick/fredrick," which happens to be the name of his (maybe) brother/half-brother? It's one thing to take on an identity with paper documents, but the name you have people call you in day-to-day interactions, I'd imagine might be the name used during childhood.

Also, why would two younger brothers from the same father (even if born after his parents married), not be in the orphanage? With a child in an orphanage & both legs amputated, his mother has two more children? I know it was a different time, but still something strange about that story.

Wouldn't be shocking if the birth record he says he has as Willy Coppenolle is not legit/stolen (and conveniently any other copies were destroyed in a bombing). I'd be he's really Freddy David.

I've been looking at the name related stories too to try to make sense of it. On one of the NAA file docs (Citizenship interview from memory) he presents a birth certificate and an Army Pay Book, so this suggests that he has a birth certificate (but is it legit?...). If the Etats Civil was bombed it could be a replacement certificate. so next question is was the building bombed? I am assuming it would be the Tournai Etats Civil and the website says the records were transferred to Mons at a particular date and I can find nothing about it being bombed in the history.
Re the use of the name/ alias incorporating names relating to his brother...does he only use these in Australia where no one knows he has/ had a brother of that name?
Good point about the other brothers not also being in the orphanage (although he does say something about them being legitimate v him being illegitimate. The brothers story is all a bit fuzzy. Do we even have their birthdates? and as for his mother's legs being amputated...how do we know that that story is not the fabricated bit and there was no house bombed/amputation at all? Made up for the purpose of eliciting sympathy?

 

[gymtonic]

In light of the fact RB spoke of " Nureyev "when discussing this dance evidence and referenced some town where he was known to be acknowledged and even said the word Ballet , i wonder where the Belly dancer came into it other than it well may have been misunderstood by others as being "Belly"

I remember thinking why it wasn't corrected and every one here just ran with it because they thought it was funny , so not such a silly connection IMO

I wondered whether he was saying ballet for quite a while but knowing the French accent it didn't really sound quite right as Ballet. Then when he mentioned GGB wearing a boa (the snake like thing of feathers around her neck that he had difficulty finding the correct word for...I took it to be describing a boa), I came down on the side of him saying "belly dancing". Plus belly dancing was a thing in Australia at that time and she was too old to make a successful ballet dancing career. IMO the weight of evidence for me was that he was saying belly dancing.

 

[ChrysStevenson]

Hi all, I’m a first time poster but I’ve been following the podcast and the MB threads on this site intently.

I’m a professional freelance academic researcher working for a client list of journalists, academics, authors and lobbyists.

Some of my specialist areas are history, cultural studies and family history (though I’m not a genealogist).

I look forward to joining the conversation!

 

[centred]

So trying to make sense of some of RB's statements during inquest. First he says he's not completely sure of his birth name, then says he has the birth record (Willy Coppenolle). But then says the records of his birth were destroyed in a bombing. If he has his birth record, would the name on it, be the name he was given at birth? Then, throughout his adult life, he goes by the name "rick/fredrick," which happens to be the name of his (maybe) brother/half-brother? It's one thing to take on an identity with paper documents, but the name you have people call you in day-to-day interactions, I'd imagine might be the name used during childhood.

Also, why would two younger brothers from the same father (even if born after his parents married), not be in the orphanage? With a child in an orphanage & both legs amputated, his mother has two more children? I know it was a different time, but still something strange about that story.

Wouldn't be shocking if the birth record he says he has as Willy Coppenolle is not legit/stolen (and conveniently any other copies were destroyed in a bombing). I'd be he's really Freddy David.

I have always had this inkling he doesn't know who he really is when he said

"That is what i was told " ... That is mainly why i feel like I am wasting too much time on his past when we are chasing down a ghost ....I know there must be hundreds of thousands of refugees in the same "boat " .

Regardless it has been a fascinating journey and insight into what might have happened to Marion .

 

[brjakj]

I've been looking at the name related stories too to try to make sense of it. On one of the NAA file docs (Citizenship interview from memory) he presents a birth certificate and an Army Pay Book, so this suggests that he has a birth certificate (but is it legit?...). If the Etats Civil was bombed it could be a replacement certificate. so next question is was the building bombed? I am assuming it would be the Tournai Etats Civil and the website says the records were transferred to Mons at a particular date and I can find nothing about it being bombed in the history.
Re the use of the name/ alias incorporating names relating to his brother...does he only use these in Australia where no one knows he has/ had a brother of that name?
Good point about the other brothers not also being in the orphanage (although he does say something about them being legitimate v him being illegitimate. The brothers story is all a bit fuzzy. Do we even have their birthdates? and as for his mother's legs being amputated...how do we know that that story is not the fabricated bit and there was no house bombed/amputation at all? Made up for the purpose of eliciting sympathy?

Given the lack of information on the family tree, I would say the information has been put there by someone’s own knowledge.

I wonder if someone contacts the authors of the tree, whether they could shed any light on the family and ww/wc?

 

[Nnbee]

Hi all, I’m a first time poster but I’ve been following the podcast and the MB threads on this site intently.

I’m a professional freelance academic researcher working for a client list of journalists, academics, authors and lobbyists.

Some of my specialist areas are history, cultural studies and family history (though I’m not a genealogist).

I look forward to joining the conversation!

Welcome! Do you know if there are public records of container exports from 1996- now?

I want to search RB alias list to see if there was a chance marions container of furniture was shipped overseas.

 

[gymtonic]

I always thought RB meant belly dancing because women in their 50s usually don't do ballet professionally unless they are ballet teachers whereas belly dancing is viewed by many men as being erotic with the woman dancing with boa feathers around her neck like a snake in the privacy of their bedroom - hence he said he was "bewitched".

On the other hand, ballet dancing is probably not viewed as "erotic". However, JO said at the inquest that RB was trying to lure her to sell her house and buy a property in the French Riviera and for GGB, it was Paris. There was never any mention of belly or ballet dancing in JO's account so IMO he wanted to delete that story and came up with the belly dancing and getting agents instead as he did not want to be associated with the idea of having tried to lure JO into selling her house. DdH had mentioned that he told her that GGB was the one who was the dancer. Maybe he changed the story he told his wife from ballet to belly dancing for the inquest. IMO RB came up with the belly dancing story as a distraction.

I'm not sure why he felt the need to mention Nureyev because IMO he didn't say he went to Surrey with JO, did he? Nureyev lived at several London addresses, spending some months in a rented Kensington flat with his long-term partner Erik Bruhn, and staying for a short time in Fonteyn's home in 1962, also in Kensington. He bought a house near Richmond Park (which is in Surrey ten miles from London city) in 1967, but found the semi-rural location too isolating. I think that was another distraction.

Yep! IMO Nureyev was another Walter Mitty moment!