Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

I have always had this inkling he doesn't know who he really is when he said

"That is what i was told " ... That is mainly why i feel like I am wasting too much time on his past when we are chasing down a ghost ....I know there must be hundreds of thousands of refugees in the same "boat " .

Regardless it has been a fascinating journey and insight into what might have happened to Marion .

Yep I tend to agree… ultimately it doesn’t really matter who he was in 1939.. what matters are his movements from the time of placing advertisement meeting MB, travelling OS and what happened when he/she returned.
Obviously there’s a piece of me that really wants to know if he is Willy, or Fredy, or Coppenolle/David but it doesn’t change a thing knowing that.
Bottom line he has been a scammer his entire life, he thrives on the thrill of getting away with it and the thrill of finding and working his victim.
All I really want to know is what the hell did he do to Marion because HE has done something, whether that is steal her money, abandon her OS, have someone harm her or harm her himself IMO he is 100% involved and knows what happened.
That’s why he’s giving his ridiculous stories of pilots and tea chests and cash from family in security envelopes.. visiting Southport school or the most stupid one meeting in a hotel lobby in Switzerland.. story after story..

 

[mishy66]

Yes I meant at least 1 child @Eyespywithmylittleeye

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

JO never mentioned ever being a "belly/ballet" dancer in her testimony with a desire of becoming professional in France. It wasn't until RB "fabricated" this and/or tried to "impune" JO a few days later. Just another misogynistic fantasy?

Exactly!

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Yes I meant at least 1 child @Eyespywithmylittleeye

Ahhh I thought that was odd haha

 

[Liselle]

In light of the fact RB spoke of " Nureyev "when discussing this dance evidence and referenced some town where he was known to be acknowledged and even said the word Ballet , i wonder where the Belly dancer came into it other than it well may have been misunderstood by others as being "Belly"

I remember thinking why it wasn't corrected and every one here just ran with it because they thought it was funny , so not such a silly connection IMO

JO never mentioned ever being a "belly/ballet" dancer in her testimony with a desire of becoming professional in France. It wasn't until RB "fabricated" this and/or tried to "impune" JO a few days later. Just another mysoginistic fantasy?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

I believe everything that Casselden recounted to us regarding the testimony of MC and I'd imagine what she says is probably how it fell. So, I find it very interesting that RB says MC used to often come to the furniture factory, and also that FR bought a lounge from him. Is this what someone working for the British Embassy as a special agent in Luxembourg would be doing, manufacturing lounges undercover? I wish we could hear more from MC

 

[Estelle]

A propos of nothing....(well tangentially as it is about aliases, fabrication family histories and Walter Mitty moments)...has anyone read The Barefaced Messiah: The True Story of L Ron Hubbard? (the Scientology guy) A friend put me on to it and although I am only part way through, it has interesting insights for this case.

What are your insights?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Hi all, I’m a first time poster but I’ve been following the podcast and the MB threads on this site intently.

I’m a professional freelance academic researcher working for a client list of journalists, academics, authors and lobbyists.

Some of my specialist areas are history, cultural studies and family history (though I’m not a genealogist).

I look forward to joining the conversation!

Welcome ChrysStevenson, good to have you here Oooh, is it in your field to find furniture exhibitions around the world in the 1980s .... as in Geneva, France, England, Ireland, etc .... as mentioned by RB at the inquest? Would really love to find a program of exhibitors at the time as I absolutely cannot understand the name of his family furniture business when he says it just the once at the inquest.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

JO never mentioned ever being a "belly/ballet" dancer in her testimony with a desire of becoming professional in France. It wasn't until RB "fabricated" this and/or tried to "impune" JO a few days later. Just another mysoginistic fantasy?

I feel like it's borderline insane of RB to urge us all to believe that a 51 year old who "allegedly" did a belly dance in some room in her house was suddenly seeking an agent and to start a career as a belly dancer on the stage overseas. Add to that, that he knew who the best belly dancer agents were OS and he could get interviews If we are to believe this, we are to believe the grass is blue and sky is green. MOO

 

[mishy66]

Yep I tend to agree… ultimately it doesn’t really matter who he was in 1939.. what matters are his movements from the time of placing advertisement meeting MB, travelling OS and what happened when he/she returned.
Obviously there’s a piece of me that really wants to know if he is Willy, or Fredy, or Coppenolle/David but it doesn’t change a thing knowing that.
Bottom line he has been a scammer his entire life, he thrives on the thrill of getting away with it and the thrill of finding and working his victim.
All I really want to know is what the hell did he do to Marion because HE has done something, whether that is steal her money, abandon her OS, have someone harm her or harm her himself IMO he is 100% involved and knows what happened.
That’s why he’s giving his ridiculous stories of pilots and tea chests and cash from family in security envelopes.. visiting Southport school or the most stupid one meeting in a hotel lobby in Switzerland.. story after story..

I hope that RB does get what is coming to him. Even up until the unfortunate dealings with these women who's lives he has destroyed, he deserves to be put away for all the fraudulent activities he has done - ( and others have done, if it turns out that is the case).
There is no doubt there are many more women out there too scared to come forward or perhaps even deceased themselves, and I hope this case helps them and the families, knowing that this person has been found.
As I said on an earlier post, Thank God Sally never gave up, followed her hunches, investigated every angle, covered all bases, because had she not acted on her instincts, RB would still be swindling and lying his way through life.

It does paint a good picture of who this person is though, by getting to the background of his life. This helps with other investigations into fraudulent crimes going forward in understanding just how one person could have spent his entirety on a crime spree that the Federal Police could have stopped so much earlier, given the documentation we have privy to on NAA. It is a disgrace that NSW police, Fed Police and Immigration lacked the communication needed that could have imprisoned this individual long before 1997.

Marion Barter is the Legacy of Change for criminals like him, that is what I hope is the outcome after all of this.

I think @gymtonic made a great point about this earlier, but in a more eloquent way than I have.

 

[Estelle]

From December 1965 to February 1966, FdH was in Brussels facing many charges (see NAA documentation). M (with JG Warren) returned to Sydney 2 Feb 1969 after being away for 6 months, so departed around August 1968 (? honeymoon). There is a need to discover FdH's movements during this time. I listened to most of RB's testimony, but very EVASIVE of places and dates.

I agree that we need to concentrate on the period that Marion was overseas - August 1968? to 2nd February, 1969 - to debunk his lie that he met Marion in the lobby of a Swiss Hotel.

 

[brjakj]

I agree that we need to concentrate on the period that Marion was overseas - August 1968? to 2nd February, 1969 - to debunk his lie that he met Marion in the lobby of a Swiss Hotel.

The only record I can find of Johnny Warren being in Switzerland was just prior to the 1974 World Cup. The team

 

[Liselle]

I have listened to Day 8 of hearing again (…yawn….) regarding the acquisition of a Qld D/L in the name of FR. "Why?" queried A.C. IMO - Good for handing over to police for traffic infringements etc!! Mail to the supplied address would be returned to sender and followups would eventually discover this person doesn’t exist (no passport, electoral role register, prior convictions, bank accounts (maybe!).

 

[Estelle]

P

Perhaps the dancing story was something he fed his wife.. knowing she was on stand first he then thought he had to keep going with the dancing story

But to his wife, it might have been ballet but to the inquest, it became belly dancing.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I agree that we need to concentrate on the period that Marion was overseas - August 1968? to 2nd February, 1969 - to debunk his lie that he met Marion in the lobby of a Swiss Hotel.

The Warren family will know if JW & Marion travelled to Switzerland after his brief spell at Stockport County. I believe the club had funded his journey over and accommodation so not sure if the Warren’s had enough money to go travelling across Europe.

I have read his autobiography and there is no mention of his visit in 1968/69 or for that matter any mention of Marion!

 

[MrsWattle]

I had “Pre-Columbian Civilisation” at the Académie noted to follow up. Actually the evening working on “Tapestry” story also stacks up even though his story that “Belgian houses had tapestry on the walls” seemed unlikely . I actually found a source that said that traditional Belgian wall tapestry staged a revival around the 1950s and there was even a world exhibition in Lausanne, Switzerland in 1962! Hmmm…sound familiar? Even further, I noticed that Marie Coppenolle’s profession in the family tree was “Piqueuse” which is a skilled lace maker/ designer who marks the patterns for lace onto cardboard for the placement of the threads…who knew?!
IMO RB’s Walter Mitty stories always have an element of truth from somewhere with embellishments and disguising of the origin. Another MO of a cunning con!

Perhaps the famous artist Martha van coppenolle, sister of Maria coppenolle is his family.

 

[gymtonic]

What are your insights?

Context: At one point LRH makes a list of “Affirmations” that were discovered later (in a diary I think), and the list gave an illuminating insight into the psychology or the way he thought. This is one of the quotes that I highlighted:

In her book, Reitman called the Affirmations "the most revealing psychological self-assessment, complete with exhortations to himself, that [Hubbard] had ever made."Among the Affirmations:

• "Your eyes are getting progressively better. They became bad when you used them as an excuse to escape the naval academy. You have no reason to keep them bad."
• "Your stomach trouble you used as an excuse to keep the Navy from punishing you. You are free of the Navy."
• "Your hip is a pose. You have a sound hip. It never hurts. Your shoulder never hurts."
• "Your foot was an alibi. The injury is no longer needed."
• "You can tell all the romantic tales you wish. ... But you know which ones were lies ... You have enough real experience to make anecdotes forever. Stick to your true adventures."
• "Masturbation does not injure or make insane. Your parents were in error. Everyone masturbates."

The book also shows how RLH fabricated an exotic and often heroic or glorious personal history that was rooted in some elements of truth and the many embellishments were always just plausible enough for him to fool people.

 

[gymtonic]

From December 1965 to February 1966, FdH was in Brussels facing many charges (see NAA documentation). M (with JG Warren) returned to Sydney 2 Feb 1969 after being away for 6 months, so departed around August 1968 (? honeymoon). There is a need to discover FdH's movements during this time. I listened to most of RB's testimony, but very EVASIVE of places and dates.

The only thing I have in my spreadsheet for that time is that on 19 Aug 1968 IK commits a traffic offence. At the beginning of 1969 IK is in the midst of her application for migration to Australia. In March she gets the go ahead but then asks for a delay until 19 March (at which time she apparently marries WW on 10 May 1969).

Of course there is a documentary evidence in the NAA files which states that his leg injuries and operations were in 1960, and from my memory of his testimony he was saying he was recuperating in Switzerland, on crutches from these injuries in 1968? So his “albi” or reason for being there doesn’t fit with the timeline IMO.

 

[chicken96]

I am hooked on FR impersonating a pilot - (1) MB was seen with a pilot at the school. Could this have been RB as he stated he gone to her school to pick up some books. A student’s parent just happened to be a pilot so was wrongly identified. (2) RB said she came with a man in a uniform (? pilot) when she collected her stored belongings from his house. Was this to cover the ruse?
So…. did RB become FR "The Pilot" to woo MB? Hire/buy a uniform from a party-hire company? Travel o/s as an off duty pilot? Pilots are permitted to wear their uniform when flying as a passenger between ports. Then I found this online:
No, it is not illegal to dress like a pilot.

It's an interesting theory him having convinced MB that he was a pilot, as if you add the uniform he has basically described himself.

He claimed she was accompanied by a man who looked "in his 50's, tall" wearing a "white hat" and a "blue uniform with gold markings like bars on the sleeve" he claims MB told him she had plans to live in the UK with this man and open up a private school. He claims this was the last contact he ever had with MB.

His ability to recall that much detail from a brief encounter 25 years ago is astounding.

 

[gymtonic]

If you want my take on it all after.....
@KittensAugustus and @Eyespywithmylittleeye posted up some incredible information on Desiré Charles Octave DAVID .....
I am investigating Abel Wouters is actually Don Juan - How about that douzy!

Reasonings:
MC Married to - Désiré Jean-Pierre Joseph DAVID B1905- D1943

WW - born 1939 - on the Gen Trees they all show he is first born (this is no accidental placement)

There is 4 years between WW birth and DD dying.

WW says he was placed in the orphanage aged 3 (1942) - so he has been with them or somewhere else for the first year of his life....

Enter Abel Wouters - no date of marriage.........and There is not ONE shred of anything on this man! I have searched for 1 month, everyday and there is nothing online or gen sites - except this beside his name on one of the Gen sites....

• Deceased - Tournai, , , Hainaut, Belgique

So I ask myself why is it that with an extensive GEN tree such as the one I posted up with over 80 000 names (and that is some historical working by that person! wowsers!), is there NOT a thing about AW given he was part of the childrens lives after the father died

So technically AW would have had a bigger presence on that linage in the Gen Tree I would have thought..
There is not a scrap of evidence anywhere that I have been able to find for the past month, apart from that deceased entry.

So my thinking is MC had an affair with AB - who's real name is Desiré Charles Octave DAVID
Born 2 November 1895 - Le Péage-de-Roussillon, 38298, Isère, Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes, FRANCE
and had no choice but to change his name after the 1934 trial because he was a highly publicised branded criminal.

This man has a footprint on genealogy trees and websites and he is a criminal, so why is AW not anywhere to be found

She marries him after her first husband dies and they collect WW at the orphanage. AND then WW's two brothers are born.
So it IS possible that RB is telling a truth, that he really is "Wouters".
He just happened to have his father as his greatest teacher!

IMO MOO

Ooooh, I’ll have to digest that one when I’m not so tired! Look forward to the results