Australia Australia - Marion Barter - Missing After Trip to UK - June 1997 #20

[mishy66]

AH do you know the name Simon Attila West put my mind at rest and say no

In a VERY short space in time I now see that SAW has closed up shop already!? No more website.

Now was that before or after Evelyn disclosed her uncles name?

It would be just one of many coincidences in this case if that is so.

 

[HinterlandObserver]

There was one place that someone here found a while back that looked promising in the UK. Will try and find it again.
And I did send SL a couple of places that were associated to the "family" fold in Belgium some time back, one was situated right near the old G barracks. Handy no?

Then theres the local haunts along the area near Coffs harbour. One in particular I am interested in which looks like it has a tax dodge operation going on, opening and closing various "businesses " for short periods.

Then theres old Vern and his huge property with all the sheds or looks to be shipping containers?

Who knows. Hopefully the police have asked Qs there.

Another address in west Ballina with a similar phenomenon, hundreds of businesses in one year at one address.
Hahaha I wonder if he did that every year

 

[Martinie]

Not off the top of my head but we do have a few ladies in the years after.
None that immediately fall into AHs demographic that I can recall. Closest might be Ellen Wilson in 2016 who did have a mystery boyfriend friends reported but said never saw him.
Her mother recently passed and I’m not sure if situation re inheritance but lawyers posted an ad asking for any known will to be forwarded to them.
She allegedly lived above the florist in Ballina near the police station (on the other side of the block to ballina coin investments) not in goonellabah as reported. She disappeared after using an atm. Her car has also never been recovered.

I think I remember her being mentioned (here?) in relation to RB and it sounds like it fits woth his schemes... I wonder how we can find more info about her at the time she disappeared.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Here is Ellen's WS thread

Australia - Australia - Ellen Wilson, 54, Ballina, NSW, 11 Sept 2015

Ellen Wilson Concerns for woman missing for two months "CONCERNS have escalated over the disappearance of Lismore woman Ellen Wilson who vanished without a trace two months ago. The 54-year-old was last seen at the Australian Hotel in Ballina on Friday September 11. Richmond LAC...

www.websleuths.com

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I pretty much crossed off my list of cases the murder of Jennifer Fairgate (Fergate) in the Oslo Plaza Hotel in June 1995 despite its probable Belgium/Luxembourg connections. But after listening to MC mention Mafia style gangs her execution style murder does make you wonder.

 

[HinterlandObserver]

I think I remember her being mentioned (here?) in relation to RB and it sounds like it fits woth his schemes... I wonder how we can find more info about her at the time she disappeared.

She has a thread and we have discussed what is known.. but fresh eyes are always good as it’s been stagnant for a while.
I interviewed a friend of hers and will follow up as she was going to ask about more info for me.

 

[KinseyFan]

They definitely need to interview MC again about guns and that gang she met! Anyone a Dentist or Maz or Pierre? Can she elaborate on where these gang members were from, language, accent etc? are they Brabant gang or just bad boys looting castles involved in diamonds, jewellery, coins, antiques and rare books? Sounds like organised crime by a bunch of mafia.

Did AH say he sent a container load of " books" to Australia?. Is that his mate with the big shipping yard. Did he have a friend in the shipping business.
Where were those goods sold?

Did TSS have any thefts reported in early 1997?

Where are the Belgian, Dutch, UK, Luxembourg and Australian police and why aren't they interested in interviewing all these women victims.

Great question @mrs wattle. Despite the ‘sensational’ nature of some of this, I’m finding myself overwhelmingly grateful to all these journos. And pray their findings are shaming all those who failed Marion, Evelyn, Sally, and all the other victims. Especially the Barrister (?) representing the police at the inquest.

 

[Martinie]

She has a thread and we have discussed what is known.. but fresh eyes are always good as it’s been stagnant for a while.
I interviewed a friend of hers and will follow up as she was going to ask about more info for me.

After having a squiz, I was wondering if she has spoken about this bf of hers to anyone, like any offhand comment about him at all?

 

[KinseyFan]

‘Fraud is the skin of the truth stuffed with lies’ I just heard this on one of my shows. How apt!

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

After all the trips he did with her "men" while she was away, lol
And still writing letters in the early 90s


Her testimonials change as often as his aliases

I haven't listened yet but I just want to interject with an observation. I agree about MC being shifty and something's not quite the full story... but...

Abusers, exploiters, and dominant people use their victim's guilt and shame against them in order to a) keep them trapped in the cycle of abuse; and b) keep them silent and from speaking out.

This is most common, sadly, in cases of predatory grooming of children as often the adult will lure the child into doing a multitude of little things that are 'wrong' such as maybe skipping school or receiving stolen goods or drinking alcohol or taking drugs before they 'pounce' and then they try to co-opt the child into the forbidden behaviour as if they were an equal player. So then the child is too ashamed, guilty, feels dirty and criminal, to want to ever tell another person and the abuse can go on for years. However, this has all been a mind game by the abuser.

So, what I'm trying to say here is that as long as MC is speaking to 'us' and not to 'him' then she's on the right side of the street and even though she may come off as incongruent and covering up stuff or holding back, it may be for very solid reasons. I imagine if she associated with him for many decades there's been times where she's anxious about what her involvement in a situation may fully be or maybe she downright knows. However, IMO JMO but she should be commended for coming forward. She says repeatedly she doesn't even want to think about it, so she's doing great to say as much as she does and I would suggest that she's given 'amnesty' status so that any sideways involvement she's ever had with his crimes cannot be used or held against her in a court of law, *if* there has ever been any.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I pretty much crossed off my list of cases the murder of Jennifer Fairgate (Fergate) in the Oslo Plaza Hotel in June 1995 despite its probable Belgium/Luxembourg connections. But after listening to MC mention Mafia style gangs her execution style murder does make you wonder.

I keep thinking about JF too. Was Mr AKA ever known for going over to Oslo?

That case really got under my skin and especially the guy that was staying in the room on the other side of the corridor.

 

[MrsWattle]

Bouten
Another alias

 

[mishy66]

I quite enjoyed that interview, aside from the start, between Barlett and the Lux Journo TBH

Listening to it a couple of times and knowing that AH could not have possibly been able to marry Marion in Lux or that she was even there- having found no evidence of, which is something many here have thought too, I am more convinced than ever before that something happened to Marion in the UK and while her passenger card may have arrived back into Australia, I don't think it was her that carried it in.

His admittance and that of Diane's, that he collects the passenger cards at the 'little stand' and fills out her arrival & departure cards for her - he would have no trouble what so ever getting anyone to prefill the details - especially someone smitten by the creep. Marion prefills the card but leaves the passport number blank for a custom officer to fill in??? Odd thing to do for Marion being a stickler for accuracy no doubt, having been a teacher for years. Left blank because at the time she didn't have access to it to get the number of her new passport, because he would have been holding onto it for her - just like he did for the others. He now holds that and her passport - a valuable commodity for a creep about to rob her of her life savings.

If she was in the UK in the hours before leading up to the flight home and the plane left Amsterdam not Luxembourg, no reason for her to write Luxembourg (resident) IF she had filled it out just hours prior to flying because she wasn't ever there, she was in the UK and what purpose would it serve her to do so? AH wasn't even with her and IF she had dropped everything to get back because she smelt a rat, all the more reason to fill in resident - Australia, if coming back for 8 days. WHY write home duties on the card if she was rushing back to a rat and filled it out just before the flight, she is a teacher and she didn't have a home, she had sold it and she was traveling through the UK.

Passenger card says she was coming in for 8 days and the passport never left Australia again. He had someone else come in on that passport, another victim from Europe or someone he knew IMO

The unfilled passport number and the big fat tick for married, was filled out just prior to the passport coming back in. Marion had already prefilled most of the card and AH held onto them along with her passport. HOW could she get home without it.

She didn't come home. The car was possibly about another victim, not Marion.

JMO

 

[mishy66]

Bouten
Another alias

Yep
Aside from a Muso in the US with the same name, there is someone born 1932 Marcinelle Belgium found on KBR- which is the area known to him - I thinks MC said it was Bouton, Willy Bouton.

 

[KathPlumber]

I suppose we should be searching for any antique including furniture robberies in South East England in the early to mid 1980s. Or is this just another wild goose chase?

I wonder if any of these former ‘acquaintances’ were ex-Gendarmerie?

I’ve been searching for these for months but I don’t think I’m looking in the right places. I can only find earlier and later - not in the 80s!

The mentions of the Tiffany lamps and the Chinese banknote definitely made me doubleTake. But seems too late for aka.

Would he have been robbing locales in the UK or more likely elsewhere in Europe?

 

[CuriousKat99]

I quite enjoyed that interview, aside from the start, between Barlett and the Lux Journo TBH

Listening to it a couple of times and knowing that AH could not have possibly been able to marry Marion in Lux or that she was even there- having found no evidence of, which is something many here have thought too, I am more convinced than ever before that something happened to Marion in the UK and while her passenger card may have arrived back into Australia, I don't think it was her that carried it in.

His admittance and that of Diane's, that he collects the passenger cards at the 'little stand' and fills out her arrival & departure cards for her - he would have no trouble what so ever getting anyone to prefill the details - especially someone smitten by the creep. Marion prefills the card but leaves the passport number blank for a custom officer to fill in??? Odd thing to do for Marion being a stickler for accuracy no doubt, having been a teacher for years. Left blank because at the time she didn't have access to it to get the number of her new passport, because he would have been holding onto it for her - just like he did for the others. He now holds that and her passport - a valuable commodity for a creep about to rob her of her life savings.

If she was in the UK in the hours before leading up to the flight home and the plane left Amsterdam not Luxembourg, no reason for her to write Luxembourg (resident) IF she had filled it out just hours prior to flying because she wasn't ever there, she was in the UK and what purpose would it serve her to do so? AH wasn't even with her and IF she had dropped everything to get back because she smelt a rat, all the more reason to fill in resident - Australia, if coming back for 8 days. WHY write home duties on the card if she was rushing back to a rat and filled it out just before the flight, she is a teacher and she didn't have a home, she had sold it and she was traveling through the UK.

Passenger card says she was coming in for 8 days and the passport never left Australia again. He had someone else come in on that passport, another victim from Europe or someone he knew IMO

The unfilled passport number and the big fat tick for married, was filled out just prior to the passport coming back in. Marion had already prefilled most of the card and AH held onto them along with her passport. HOW could she get home without it.

She didn't come home. The car was possibly about another victim, not Marion.

JMO

Interesting theory to explain the events that took place after Marion’s phone call to SL. I’ve always struggled to make sense of how Marion got back to AU so soon, especially without letting anything slip on that final call. Agree that it’s extremely odd that Marion would put Luxembourg on the Incoming passenger card if she hadn’t even been there. And the only sighting of Marion after her return to AU was the bank manager…And what about those postcards that appeared to have been sent from the UK after her passport arrived back in AU…? If she had smelt a rat with AKA and had rushed back to AU, surely she would have contacted her family. I guess it will be much easier to investigate this possibility once the inquest concludes with a death certificate opening up better access to international records.

 

[mishy66]

as long as MC is speaking to 'us' and not to 'him' then she's on the right side of the street and even though she may come off as incongruent and covering up stuff or holding back, it may be for very solid reasons. I imagine if she associated with him for many decades there's been times where she's anxious about what her involvement in a situation may fully be or maybe she downright knows. However, IMO JMO but she should be commended for coming forward. She says repeatedly she doesn't even want to think about it, so she's doing great to say as much as she does and I would suggest that she's given 'amnesty' status so that any sideways involvement she's ever had with his crimes cannot be used or held against her in a court of law, *if* there has ever been any.

I hear you and in normal circumstances I would take this view also and I am not saying anything about her coming forward. I'm saying there is a lot more to MC and the Ex than what has been disclosed IMO. Too many discrepancies within her own testimonies and why he wont speak publicly about knowing AH. They knew AH for years and MC knew him intimately, even knew he could kill, had guns, lied and cheated and worked with her 'men' doing god knows what but along the lines of what he does, one would assume as he references that in the letter.
Every single person associated with him from those years needs to be thoroughly investigated because somewhere along the line, it was no mistake that AH used the initials of FR for Marion Barter. She is the only one that he made change her name from what is known of the victims so far. And the only one so far to have never been found.
If this was a case that revolved solely around one person and a criminal, of course anyone coming forward should be commended and given amnesty, but this case involves so far around 14 women, one of whom has never been seen again, and a man with over 50 aliases, for what reason one can only guess. I cant wipe MC off the "doesn't know more" list because the link to her, the Ex and Marion is far too strong.
Imagine if what she did know held the key to what happened to Marion.

 

[CuriousKat99]

I haven't listened yet but I just want to interject with an observation. I agree about MC being shifty and something's not quite the full story... but...

Abusers, exploiters, and dominant people use their victim's guilt and shame against them in order to a) keep them trapped in the cycle of abuse; and b) keep them silent and from speaking out.

This is most common, sadly, in cases of predatory grooming of children as often the adult will lure the child into doing a multitude of little things that are 'wrong' such as maybe skipping school or receiving stolen goods or drinking alcohol or taking drugs before they 'pounce' and then they try to co-opt the child into the forbidden behaviour as if they were an equal player. So then the child is too ashamed, guilty, feels dirty and criminal, to want to ever tell another person and the abuse can go on for years. However, this has all been a mind game by the abuser.

So, what I'm trying to say here is that as long as MC is speaking to 'us' and not to 'him' then she's on the right side of the street and even though she may come off as incongruent and covering up stuff or holding back, it may be for very solid reasons. I imagine if she associated with him for many decades there's been times where she's anxious about what her involvement in a situation may fully be or maybe she downright knows. However, IMO JMO but she should be commended for coming forward. She says repeatedly she doesn't even want to think about it, so she's doing great to say as much as she does and I would suggest that she's given 'amnesty' status so that any sideways involvement she's ever had with his crimes cannot be used or held against her in a court of law, *if* there has ever been any.

100% agree. Whatever MC’s involvement was, and whether she is withholding information, what she does say each time sheds significant light on the case.

I found MC’s description of AKA fascinating and it gave me a lot of insight into how he managed to con so many women. Yes in those days he may have been physically attractive and good in bed but what stood out for me was that he was good at making her laugh and fun to be around. I can just picture him getting his victims laughing, lulling them into intoxicating happiness while he worked his trade on them, mining them for all of the necessary information. As soon as his job was done, he would drop the charm and disappear in a puff of smoke, leaving them feeling dazed, embarrassed and at a loss to explain what had happened to them.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I hear you and in normal circumstances I would take this view also and I am not saying anything about her coming forward. I'm saying there is a lot more to MC and the Ex than what has been disclosed IMO. Too many discrepancies within her own testimonies and why he wont speak publicly about knowing AH. They knew AH for years and MC knew him intimately, even knew he could kill, had guns, lied and cheated and worked with her 'men' doing god knows what but along the lines of what he does, one would assume as he references that in the letter.
Every single person associated with him from those years needs to be thoroughly investigated because somewhere along the line, it was no mistake that AH used the initials of FR for Marion Barter. She is the only one that he made change her name from what is known of the victims so far. And the only one so far to have never been found.
If this was a case that revolved solely around one person and a criminal, of course anyone coming forward should be commended and given amnesty, but this case involves so far around 14 women, one of whom has never been seen again, and a man with over 50 aliases, for what reason one can only guess. I cant wipe MC off the "doesn't know more" list because the link to her, the Ex and Marion is far too strong.
Imagine if what she did know held the key to what happened to Marion.

Totally agree. I'm sure she knows a lot more, although she did say she's sent a lot of emails to police detectives telling them everything she recalls, we have no way of knowing this is true or not.

I think there was an era when the idea of being a 'gangster's moll' or associating with hard men and players was considered a bit bohemian and free and open minded and artsy, sophisticated thinkers even. Those days are long gone and we all know the devastating impact of crime, victim's stories are mainstream news nowadays and since we have such amazing tracking systems, it's not the sort of thing anyone can get away with now. Plus feminism has jogged the whole narrative along. JMO MOO

 

[ruby925]

I would like MC to be interviewed in her native language, I believe it would give more accurate information and the words would be hers without any suggestions or substitutions.
I agree with the posts above, RB was obviously considered to be good looking, educated, charming, lots of fun and in MC's case at least, not overtly controlling. Great backstory concocted IMO, family burned at Auschwitz, left as an orphan in Berlin, taken by the English and adopted in Australia. Scars on legs due to machine gun war wounds whilst fighting for the Australians (in Vietnam was a suggestion by the interviewer). Then he was a Special Agent for the English Embassy, kept at least 10 ID cards hidden in soil (ID's which he needed as a Special Agent), and one of his aliases was Willi Bouten. So, a good looking war hero who told MC he loved her all the time and he had an exciting job...what's not to like?! Sadly too good to be true...IMO obvs
There is something about the castles and furniture though. Maybe country houses more likely than castles, but stealing antque furniture in UK and reselling elsewhere in Europe (including your own shop) sounds very plausible if you have a base in East Sussex and a van.. To be fair, it can also be lucrative to buy antique furniture at auction in UK and sell on, so a bit of mix and match might give an air of legitimacy.
All MOO
Also, I had thought that RB had 'acquired' an FNR International Drivers' License, which he then used to get a QLD license. The podcast says he got a Luxembourg license which he used to get an IDL. Which is right please? Did both of these require a photo in those days?