GUILTY Australia - Morgan Huxley, 31, stabbed to death, Neutral Bay, NSW, 8 Sept 2013 #2

[DrWatson]

Just a point about the stab wounds - which we have discussed some time back on the previous thread.

I did point out that those on the back and side may be shallow due to the fact that the knife had a very short blade (think Exacto knife, or even Stanley knife - box cutter for our American friends).

But the same short-bladed knife could do some nasty damage on the neck - the internal jugular vein is very superficial - it's right there, just under the skin and a very thin bit of muscle. As I pointed out earlier - it is so easily accessible, that's why we use it for venous access during anaesthesia, or in ICU, for example. And a part stab/part slash would do even more damage.

It is unusual - although certainly not improbable - for the carotid artery to be injured in direct stabbing - it tends to be much more "rubbery" due to a much thicker wall than the jugular vein, and also has the ability to "bounce" away from a penetrating wound. I've seen a patient with a chainsaw injury to the side of the neck (kickback of the saw in a professional tree-lopper) which divided almost everything on one side of the neck - EXCEPT the carotid, which was uninjured.

To cause significant injury to the carotid, there would need to be a sideways slashing component to the wound. And if there had been (I don't have access to the autopsy report - yet) then I would have expected death to be far more rapid. But poor Morgan was still alive from the time of the attack (estimated to be between 02:30 and 02:50) until the paramedics got there, when resuscitation attempts were unsuccessful.

So - and of course this is only speculation - I suspect he had major VENOUS bleeding, most likely from the internal jugular vein. And this could easily have been caused by a short-bladed knife.

So I don't draw any conclusions that the "shallow" wounds to the back and side were due to lesser force or poor stabbing technique - I would think that ALL the stab wounds would have been delivered with similar force. But the 2 or 3 to the side of the neck did the damage.

So - think length of blade, rather than force of delivery.

 

[Brightbird]

DK caught up to MH on Watson St (I'm a local, he had at most 15 seconds before he entered his unit). The loner with no friends talked his way into MH's unit and got busy. After sex, having offered his number and being rejected he stabbed his numerous times feeling massively rejected?

He loses the plot and stabs him with a great deal of accuracy and then just keeps missing him 25 odd times. No way.

Do we know if they went straight back to his flat? I may have missed something but perhaps they stood around for a bit chatting. I'm suggesting there might have been attraction even before he went inside, but no not in 15seconds. What's the alternative? The loner with no friends managed to sustain a secret relationship with MH? Seems as likely as striking up a conversation and going back to his flat to me.

I don't think he missed 25 times. Just my opinion, but I think the numerous superficial stabs were out of anger or hurt and happened after the stabs to the neck.

ETA: Just read Dr Watson's post and maybe they weren't superficial. But it seems rather random and messy and that means emotional to me.

 

[Ausgirl]

DJK uses his mad interpersonal skillz he's learned from being a sociopath with net access to talk a very drunk M into inviting him 'round for a few more drinks or a smoke/whatever - they get back to Morgan's place - go hang in Morgan's room - DJK holds a knife to M's throat and tries to rape him - M complies b/c of knife but then struggles - DJK having ejaculated at some point and thus leaving evidence of sex, cuts M's throat and puts all his weight down on M - stabstabstab - DJK bolts out, waking the flatmate.

I got a hundred of 'em.

 

[Ausgirl]

OK hands up everyone who's picked up a random in a pub whilst drunk late at night and is now thinking 'oooh .. ' ?

Not me! :no: Nuh-uh. Never. In a million years, nope.

:runaway:

 

[MsAnais]

Just a point about the stab wounds - which we have discussed some time back on the previous thread.

I did point out that those on the back and side may be shallow due to the fact that the knife had a very short blade (think Exacto knife, or even Stanley knife - box cutter for our American friends).

But the same short-bladed knife could do some nasty damage on the neck - the internal jugular vein is very superficial - it's right there, just under the skin and a very thin bit of muscle. As I pointed out earlier - it is so easily accessible, that's why we use it for venous access during anaesthesia, or in ICU, for example. And a part stab/part slash would do even more damage.

It is unusual - although certainly not improbable - for the carotid artery to be injured in direct stabbing - it tends to be much more "rubbery" due to a much thicker wall than the jugular vein, and also has the ability to "bounce" away from a penetrating wound. I've seen a patient with a chainsaw injury to the side of the neck (kickback of the saw in a professional tree-lopper) which divided almost everything on one side of the neck - EXCEPT the carotid, which was uninjured.

To cause significant injury to the carotid, there would need to be a sideways slashing component to the wound. And if there had been (I don't have access to the autopsy report - yet) then I would have expected death to be far more rapid. But poor Morgan was still alive from the time of the attack (estimated to be between 02:30 and 02:50) until the paramedics got there, when resuscitation attempts were unsuccessful.

So - and of course this is only speculation - I suspect he had major VENOUS bleeding, most likely from the internal jugular vein. And this could easily have been caused by a short-bladed knife.

So I don't draw any conclusions that the "shallow" wounds to the back and side were due to lesser force or poor stabbing technique - I would think that ALL the stab wounds would have been delivered with similar force. But the 2 or 3 to the side of the neck did the damage.

So - think length of blade, rather than force of delivery.

Thank you Dr Watson! Your knowledge is greatly appreciated - tis helpful to have more of a medical perspective.

 

[BoxHead]

Just a point about the stab wounds - which we have discussed some time back on the previous thread.

I did point out that those on the back and side may be shallow due to the fact that the knife had a very short blade (think Exacto knife, or even Stanley knife - box cutter for our American friends).

But the same short-bladed knife could do some nasty damage on the neck - the internal jugular vein is very superficial - it's right there, just under the skin and a very thin bit of muscle. As I pointed out earlier - it is so easily accessible, that's why we use it for venous access during anaesthesia, or in ICU, for example. And a part stab/part slash would do even more damage.

It is unusual - although certainly not improbable - for the carotid artery to be injured in direct stabbing - it tends to be much more "rubbery" due to a much thicker wall than the jugular vein, and also has the ability to "bounce" away from a penetrating wound. I've seen a patient with a chainsaw injury to the side of the neck (kickback of the saw in a professional tree-lopper) which divided almost everything on one side of the neck - EXCEPT the carotid, which was uninjured.

To cause significant injury to the carotid, there would need to be a sideways slashing component to the wound. And if there had been (I don't have access to the autopsy report - yet) then I would have expected death to be far more rapid. But poor Morgan was still alive from the time of the attack (estimated to be between 02:30 and 02:50) until the paramedics got there, when resuscitation attempts were unsuccessful.

So - and of course this is only speculation - I suspect he had major VENOUS bleeding, most likely from the internal jugular vein. And this could easily have been caused by a short-bladed knife.

So I don't draw any conclusions that the "shallow" wounds to the back and side were due to lesser force or poor stabbing technique - I would think that ALL the stab wounds would have been delivered with similar force. But the 2 or 3 to the side of the neck did the damage.

So - think length of blade, rather than force of delivery.

Very useful post. This opens up the possibility that all blows were delivered in anger.

 

[BoxHead]

DJK uses his mad interpersonal skillz he's learned from being a sociopath with net access to talk a very drunk M into inviting him 'round for a few more drinks or a smoke/whatever - they get back to Morgan's place - go hang in Morgan's room - DJK holds a knife to M's throat and tries to rape him - M complies b/c of knife but then struggles - DJK having ejaculated at some point and thus leaving evidence of sex, cuts M's throat and puts all his weight down on M - stabstabstab - DJK bolts out, waking the flatmate.

I got a hundred of 'em.

Sociopaths don't have mad interpersonal skills. They have no feeling of empathy and can only reason based upon past experiences. Emotions are irrational to sociopath and leave them floundering and confused.

 

[SapphireSteel]

OK hands up everyone who's picked up a random in a pub whilst drunk late at night and is now thinking 'oooh .. ' ?

I'm not thinking that because this wasn't a random pickup.

Morgan did not pick anyone up, he had a nightcap with mates then walked home.
'
He was followed.

So no, I'm not thinking about the one night stands I've had - I'm thinking of footsteps picking up pace behind me at night....

:scared:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Do we know if they went straight back to his flat? I may have missed something but perhaps they stood around for a bit chatting. I'm suggesting there might have been attraction even before he went inside, but no not in 15seconds. What's the alternative? The loner with no friends managed to sustain a secret relationship with MH? Seems as likely as striking up a conversation and going back to his flat to me.

I don't think he missed 25 times. Just my opinion, but I think the numerous superficial stabs were out of anger or hurt and happened after the stabs to the neck.

ETA: Just read Dr Watson's post and maybe they weren't superficial. But it seems rather random and messy and that means emotional to me.

Once they walk out of the cameras scope, no one knows exactly what happened.

LE probably have an excellent idea but just haven't told us yet.

They're kinda smart like that...or, the technicians are.

 

[Northern Beaches]

DJK uses his mad interpersonal skillz he's learned from being a sociopath with net access to talk a very drunk M into inviting him 'round for a few more drinks or a smoke/whatever - they get back to Morgan's place - go hang in Morgan's room - DJK holds a knife to M's throat and tries to rape him - M complies b/c of knife but then struggles - DJK having ejaculated at some point and thus leaving evidence of sex, cuts M's throat and puts all his weight down on M - stabstabstab - DJK bolts out, waking the flatmate.

I got a hundred of 'em.

Seeing as Morgan had already been dropped off at home late at night and then went to the pub I think it's fair to assume that he wanted to carry on into the night instead of retiring to bed. I don't think he would have hesitated in inviting anybody over to his place who he perceived as friendly.

As a 31 year old who ran a business and had friends from all walks of life I think he was mature enough to be accepting of someone who had the appearance/demeanour of DJK. MH would definitely have been more accepting of someone like DJK than people of the same age as DJK.

 

[Ausgirl]

So let's say that DJK first stabs MH in the neck with a surprise attack. I would think that the blood spatter from that onto his glasses (and it has been reported that blood was detected on his glasses) would obstruct him from inflicting more serious wounds afterwards. Blood all over his glasses may also have put him off from inflicting a larger number of stabs.

Unless he slashed M's throat from the side, or behind..?

Box, I gotta disagree with you again -- sociopaths aren't totally devoid of emotion, they feel alright - just mostly based on their own inner agenda. And they really CAN have mad interpersonal skills, I have met a few both on the net and in person who could turn it on and off.. but interestingly, had a hard time sustaining the 'on' and thus relationships.

I think there's a spectrum of sociopathy, too, and I have a bit to say about that.. . But ooh, there's a new ep. of American Horror Story I gotta go watch, so lucky you.

(and maybe I was being a bit twee about the skillz)

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Some sociopaths, even when you know they are, can be quite fun to know in a way, it's just that when they turn nasty it can seem very sudden, unexpected and disproportionate. I'm not convinced at all that DJK was one, it just doesn't really fit for me .. he seems a little too 'tragic'.

 

[sydsleuth]

Hi All,

I have also been lurking in the background and have decided to weigh into the conversation.

I guess I have a personal interest in this story and the reason it struck a chord with me was because when I first read this story, alarm bells rang and my first thought was 'Grindr' hookup gone wrong.

The reason for the alarm bells - and the more than typical amount of interest in this story I guess is based on the fact that I live only 10 mins away from where this all took place and have used Grindr quite often in the past. The scenario of this type of thing happening always in the back of my mind - and could so easily occur. When you really think about it - you are inviting strangers into your home or vice versa and putting yourself into - lets be blunt - quite a vulnerable situation.

Anyway - I thought I would add a few comments as food for thought.

Firstly, I would't be so quick to dismiss DJK as unattractive to MH and therefore no possibility of consensual sexual activity taking place. You'd be surprised at the amount of married men, men in relationships with women and men that would quite often sleep with woman - that are on Grindr. Secondly, quite often, masculine men in these situations will go for more effeminate guys.

The scenario leading up to DJK meeting up with MH also has the hallmarks of a Grindr hookup. MH buys some time whilst waiting for DJK by having a beer and then leaves the pub after thinking DJK will be a no show. Once MH Leaves the pub, he decides to give DJK some more time to arrive - hence the pacing at the crust store - and then finally walks off. DJK then notices him, takes time to identify that it is MH and then runs up to him and strikes up a conversation at which point they head to MH's place.

From here - I am totally lost for how things could have gone so wrong.

I will stop rambling now. And while I have painted a certain picture above - I in no way believe that it has to be true or must be the case. It's just one option in amongst countless others that are swirling around in my mind. And if it is in fact along those lines, there is no way MH should be vilified. Sexual confusion and how people deal with it is their business and the people directly involved only. Not others. But typically straight guys sleeping with guys every now and then certainly out there.

Cheers.

 

[BoxHead]

Box, I gotta disagree with you again -- sociopaths aren't totally devoid of emotion, they feel alright - just mostly based on their own inner agenda.

Ausgirl you just enjoy tormenting me I agree by the way. They feel for themselves.

And they really CAN have mad interpersonal skills, I have met a few both on the net and in person who could turn it on and off.. but interestingly, had a hard time sustaining the 'on' and thus relationships.

They certainly can maintain a pretence for a long while. These are "high functioning sociopaths".

I think there's a spectrum of sociopathy, too, and I have a bit to say about that.. . But ooh, there's a new ep. of American Horror Story I gotta go watch, so lucky you.

(and maybe I was being a bit twee about the skillz)

There is a spectrum. No doubt there.

 

[Strangeworld]

OK hands up everyone who's picked up a random in a pub whilst drunk late at night and is now thinking 'oooh .. ' ?

:bananalama:

 

[Strangeworld]

DK caught up to MH on Watson St (I'm a local, he had at most 15 seconds before he entered his unit). The loner with no friends talked his way into MH's unit and got busy. After sex, having offered his number and being rejected he stabbed him numerous times feeling massively rejected?

He loses the plot and stabs him with a great deal of accuracy and then just keeps missing him 25 odd times. No way.

I am confused - what are you saying he was aiming at? The neck, another part of the body? Just trying to understand why you keep referring to accuracy.

I really don't think he was stabbed 25 odd times. The MSM reports are significantly different now to the reports in the last few weeks. I'm guessing it was more like 12-15 wounds, or they would have kept using the original 29 (or whatever it was) wounds.

 

[BoxHead]

Hi All,

I have also been lurking in the background and have decided to weigh into the conversation.

I guess I have a personal interest in this story and the reason it struck a chord with me was because when I first read this story, alarm bells rang and my first thought was 'Grindr' hookup gone wrong.

The reason for the alarm bells - and the more than typical amount of interest in this story I guess is based on the fact that I live only 10 mins away from where this all took place and have used Grindr quite often in the past. The scenario of this type of thing happening always in the back of my mind - and could so easily occur. When you really think about it - you are inviting strangers into your home or vice versa and putting yourself into - lets be blunt - quite a vulnerable situation.

Anyway - I thought I would add a few comments as food for thought.

Firstly, I would't be so quick to dismiss DJK as unattractive to MH and therefore no possibility of consensual sexual activity taking place. You'd be surprised at the amount of married men, men in relationships with women and men that would quite often sleep with woman - that are on Grindr. Secondly, quite often, masculine men in these situations will go for more effeminate guys.

The scenario leading up to DJK meeting up with MH also has the hallmarks of a Grindr hookup. MH buys some time whilst waiting for DJK by having a beer and then leaves the pub after thinking DJK will be a no show. Once MH Leaves the pub, he decides to give DJK some more time to arrive - hence the pacing at the crust store - and then finally walks off. DJK then notices him, takes time to identify that it is MH and then runs up to him and strikes up a conversation at which point they head to MH's place.

From here - I am totally lost for how things could have gone so wrong.

I will stop rambling now. And while I have painted a certain picture above - I in no way believe that it has to be true or must be the case. It's just one option in amongst countless others that are swirling around in my mind. And if it is in fact along those lines, there is no way MH should be vilified. Sexual confusion and how people deal with it is their business and the people directly involved only. Not others. But typically straight guys sleeping with guys every now and then certainly out there.

Cheers.

I hear you mate. My dad came out 8 years ago after my mum died. I've got a fair idea how the "scene" works and I worry every day. This is just up the road from me as well.

The bloke who killed MH has no excuses.

 

[Brightbird]

Seeing as Morgan had already been dropped off at home late at night and then went to the pub I think it's fair to assume that he wanted to carry on into the night instead of retiring to bed. I don't think he would have hesitated in inviting anybody over to his place who he perceived as friendly.

As a 31 year old who ran a business and had friends from all walks of life I think he was mature enough to be accepting of someone who had the appearance/demeanour of DJK. MH would definitely have been more accepting of someone like DJK than people of the same age as DJK.

And then imagine the hurt when this friendly, fun, good-looking guy rejects you? It's like those movies where the loner is accepted by the cool kids at school only to find out it's a joke. Not that I think Morgan did reject him, but to someone like DJK, it could have felt that way.

Mrs G - I also don't think DJK is necessarily a sociopath. Borderline? Quite possibly. Even some schizotypal traits if the depiction of him is accurate (big IF there).

I was wondering if there was some alcohol or maybe a bong at Morgan's, maybe DJK was inexperienced and lost his inhibitions or became paranoid?

 

[fruity]

-- The links to NZ were spot on! Go fruity! (the person 'fruity' I mean - I'm not suggesting .. nevermind.)

I truly did laugh at loud at this

 

[SouthAussie]

Hi All,

I have also been lurking in the background and have decided to weigh into the conversation.

I guess I have a personal interest in this story and the reason it struck a chord with me was because when I first read this story, alarm bells rang and my first thought was 'Grindr' hookup gone wrong.

The reason for the alarm bells - and the more than typical amount of interest in this story I guess is based on the fact that I live only 10 mins away from where this all took place and have used Grindr quite often in the past. The scenario of this type of thing happening always in the back of my mind - and could so easily occur. When you really think about it - you are inviting strangers into your home or vice versa and putting yourself into - lets be blunt - quite a vulnerable situation.

Anyway - I thought I would add a few comments as food for thought.

Firstly, I would't be so quick to dismiss DJK as unattractive to MH and therefore no possibility of consensual sexual activity taking place. You'd be surprised at the amount of married men, men in relationships with women and men that would quite often sleep with woman - that are on Grindr. Secondly, quite often, masculine men in these situations will go for more effeminate guys.

The scenario leading up to DJK meeting up with MH also has the hallmarks of a Grindr hookup. MH buys some time whilst waiting for DJK by having a beer and then leaves the pub after thinking DJK will be a no show. Once MH Leaves the pub, he decides to give DJK some more time to arrive - hence the pacing at the crust store - and then finally walks off. DJK then notices him, takes time to identify that it is MH and then runs up to him and strikes up a conversation at which point they head to MH's place.

From here - I am totally lost for how things could have gone so wrong.

I will stop rambling now. And while I have painted a certain picture above - I in no way believe that it has to be true or must be the case. It's just one option in amongst countless others that are swirling around in my mind. And if it is in fact along those lines, there is no way MH should be vilified. Sexual confusion and how people deal with it is their business and the people directly involved only. Not others. But typically straight guys sleeping with guys every now and then certainly out there.

Cheers.

Thanks for your post sydsleuth and welcome! Great to have some more local perspective.

:welcome6:


Can you tell us ... clothes on or clothes off for casual Grindr hookups? Or a bit of both perhaps? Asking due to Morgan's shirt being on, and wondering if DJK also had to re-dress. Although, he could have been asked to leave, got dressed angrily, grabbed a weapon, and attacked .. so maybe the question is a moot one. :waitasec:

In fact, don't answer, it really doesn't matter. I guess it is just personal preference if they were in Morgan's home ... not like they were in a car or public place. :doh: