Found Deceased Australia - Russell Hill, 74, & Carol Clay, 72, Wonnangatta Valley, 20 Mar 2020 #5 *charges*

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It does seem odd that the police haven't or can't find the trailer if it was sold on gumtree.

A bit like when they asked the public to find the unaccounted driver of the nissan patrol when they'd already spoken to GL and very likely the camera captured the plate or a search through vic roads would of found it.

So I wonder if they are trying to get information from people that may have seen the ad and spoken to GL or even went to inspect the trailer.

Or GL is claiming it was sold on gumtree but police don't believe that because they've been looking for it for 20 months and have found no trace.

By putting out this public alert they can apply more pressure to GL that no one has come forward and gumtree have no record of it so tell us what you did with it.

I assumed GL was asked the question what happened to his trailer in the interview. Saying he sold it on gumtree doesn't lead to any conclusions on it's own. He would know that if it is found there may be DNA or other evidence (assuming it was used in the alleged murders) that could be found giving the prosecution more evidence to prove their case.

I have never been convinced that it was actually sold on gumtree. Police may have been able to confirm a transaction through bank records even if paid in cash that would lead to not knowing the buyer. It could also be to make sure that this has been thoroughly examined to satisfy the defence.
 
Hi Everyone,

I’m glad you found the link to the John Silvester interview interesting. I still haven’t actually had time to listen! I do find that JS sometimes speculates a bit. I remember when CS was found in Carnarvon he was on 3AW the next day speculating in the abscence of anything concrete ie. the police obviously knew where she was for a while and were planning a bust, when in the end it transpired it all happened that afternoon to evening fairly rapidly. On the other hand he knows VicPol much better and has connections.

along with Andrew Rule, he was one of the 2 main journos involved in drawing attention back to the original disappearance of RH and CC via the articles that mentioned Button Man.
On another note - I have been reading WS faithfully since September 2012 (some people might remember the significance of that time :() but I have only just finally made an account. Long time lurker first time poster.

As always in awe of all of you regular posters!!
Welcome Kath.

There is a case that each of us join for. Some stay for that case and others stay to comment on others. Enjoy and we look forward to your input.
 
I assumed GL was asked the question what happened to his trailer in the interview. Saying he sold it on gumtree doesn't lead to any conclusions on it's own. He would know that if it is found there may be DNA or other evidence (assuming it was used in the alleged murders) that could be found giving the prosecution more evidence to prove their case.

I have never been convinced that it was actually sold on gumtree. Police may have been able to confirm a transaction through bank records even if paid in cash that would lead to not knowing the buyer. It could also be to make sure that this has been thoroughly examined to satisfy the defence.

Yes, it’s a bit odd - he wouldn’t prob just give up the info.
All those posts and messages can be traced to the buyer, surely.
 
I dont recall if there was significant static interference that day or not.
The static interference we have to put up with is either naturally occurring like lightning static (crashes) or they are man made like from a electric generator, plasma TV LED lights etc. I dont think there was someone deliberately trying to jam Russell's transmissions.
The other thing is that because Russell was operating at a location away from home it is not usually possible to erect the most efficient antenna so signal strengths both ways are reduced. This can mean that the signals you are trying to listen to are not very far above the background noise, this coupled with some lightning static or static from a generator may make communication a bit difficult. We are used to these challenges and it is part of everyday life as a HF Ham (Amateur) Radio operator.
If Russell was suffering from static from a generator I dont think he would have asked for the generator to be turned off.
I spoke with Russell up to about 18:30 on the evening before, but continued to listen as Rob Ashlin and Russell discussed the tracks to take and the possible camping spots to have a look at on the way out of the valley towards Dargo. There didnt seem to be any difficulty in passing messages back and forth. The conversation ended around 18:40.
I hope that helps.
Thank you. It clears my initial question.
 
Very good but at the same time very sad also that remains have been found where LE was searching. I was expecting Russell and Carol's case to move slower than this but its moving ahead very quickly (odds are the remains are probably RH and CC's.
 
I suspect telling LE he sold the trailer on gumtree was a fabrication. More likely it was scrapped or given away so as to leave no trace or transaction. Even power washing does not remove all forensic evidence. While forensic TV shows entertain and educate those interested in criminal investigation, they also educate criminals in what evidence to avoid or rid themselves of.
 
This might be better…

View attachment 324805

So what I’m getting at is that I don’t think that GL told them..

Hi Sleuther, I couldn't help myself but after seeing your ping pin map (!!) I had to go and map the various areas on google, I think I found the Myrtelford gate turn-back (I'll try and post a screenshot), from what I can gather from the screenshot with the ping pins, both the campsite and the Myrtelford gate turnback are the red pins, the northern one being where he turned around (both are marked Wonnangatta Track on the map in the pic below.

It looks like (in my opinion only) he could have left the camp site around midnight, driven north through the Myrtelford turn-off campsite to the turnback, turned around as the gate was closed, driven south past the original campsite, no doubt desperately looking for somewhere and then just before the main road (Dargo High Plains Rd is sealed and can take standard sedans) he found the site where the remains were found, arriving around 2 am.

Thinking I remember someone saying he was on camera just west of Mt Hotham on the Great Alpine Rd around 6.30am, he would have left the site of the remains about 4:30.

First pic is the google times for the first part of the trip (2hrs)
Second pic is the second part (1hr 20)
Third pic is his whole drive all the way home (7hrs 40) big trip when you stop halfway.

As an aside, it took him about 2 hrs longer to go north rather than south through Gippsland to get home.

upload_2021-12-1_23-4-11.png
upload_2021-12-1_23-10-21.png
upload_2021-12-1_23-11-46.png
 
Hi Sleuther, I couldn't help myself but after seeing your ping pin map (!!) I had to go and map the various areas on google, I think I found the Myrtelford gate turn-back (I'll try and post a screenshot), from what I can gather from the screenshot with the ping pins, both the campsite and the Myrtelford gate turnback are the red pins, the northern one being where he turned around (both are marked Wonnangatta Track on the map in the pic below.

It looks like (in my opinion only) he could have left the camp site around midnight, driven north through the Myrtelford turn-off campsite to the turnback, turned around as the gate was closed, driven south past the original campsite, no doubt desperately looking for somewhere and then just before the main road (Dargo High Plains Rd is sealed and can take standard sedans) he found the site where the remains were found, arriving around 2 am.

Thinking I remember someone saying he was on camera just west of Mt Hotham on the Great Alpine Rd around 6.30am, he would have left the site of the remains about 4:30.

First pic is the google times for the first part of the trip (2hrs)
Second pic is the second part (1hr 20)
Third pic is his whole drive all the way home (7hrs 40) big trip when you stop halfway.

As an aside, it took him about 2 hrs longer to go north rather than south through Gippsland to get home.

View attachment 324860
View attachment 324861
View attachment 324862

This is great!!! Yes mine was elementary and rough as I knew he didn’t take a direct route (and I realised it wouldn’t have made sense with the pings afterwards, sorry). I was just scratching it out like a mind map, with the hope that someone would include the details discussed earlier! Thank you! :D
 
Maybe he destroyed/dumped his trailer, and told everyone else he sold it on Gumtree.

Maybe he doesn't want to fess up that he destroyed/dumped it (and be pressured into divulging the location of any remnants) due to that making him look really guilty of transporting Russell and Carol in it.
I have to admit SouthAussie , I was thinking the same thing.....
 
Thank you to all the super sleuths out there for your good wishes. We (the camping group) have long held the belief that we would never see Russell again. So todays news is a bit of a double edged sword. If the remains are infact those of Russell and Carol (we don't really know yet but the chances are very likely that they are) at least we have closure, but it also means that the last glimmer of hope has been extinguished.
I'm so so sorry Motomike....it is devastating to have lost a good friend, and then to have to cope with that loss so publicly.
I know we here are all behind you in support and whilst I'm sure your group was somewhat prepared for the worst...of course you all would have been hoping for a much different outcome.
Please know, that while we are WS strangers , I'm truly so so heartbroken for you , and of course the friends and families of RH and CC ( that seemed so wrong and cold to use initials then, sorry).
You have a grim and heartbreaking kinda answer.....as awful as it is.
I hope that the truth will bring some sort of closure at some point and you get some answers .....then you can begin to heal......xxxxx
 
I read today, (Daily Mail I'm afraid, and I don't know how to link) that a formal review of the disappearance of Revelle Belmain has led to properties in Sydney being searched for her remains. She disappeared in Sydney, in 1994. This is another disappearance that seemed unlikely to ever be solved. Again, hard to know exactly what to hope for, but answers and justice have to beat limbo for families.
I am desperately hoping that the inquiry and search of the three sites may lead to answers. I was surprised but so so happy to read this today. I worked in a beautiful clothing store on Oxford St in Paddington ( sydney) at the time and Revelle was a regular customer....I remember the day she went missing like yesterday. Its haunted me ever since.
I could never bring myself to cancel her layby and put it back on the rack......

whilst I have a pretty strong theory, as we all did, it would be so good to know finally.
I also worked on a shoot with her once, test shots for her "book".. early on ...she was lovely and so easy to get along with... God , I had forgotten that....

Edited : to say sorry for derailment and also for my manic posting...again and again....I haven't been around and I'm frantically catching up...clearly I've missed a lot....got a little "enthusiastic " in the post dept...
 
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Yes he could have but, if it were in operational condition, then I think anyone asked to crush it would remember that. It's just not the sort of thing I would expect anyone to do. In my experience, box trailers are usually valued, even if they are half falling apart.
You'd think so , however a friend bought a cage for his trailer recently ( FB market place and this year....I grilled him after I freaked out majorly....) and the seller was going to cut the trailer up as he hadn't had much interest sales wise .....It was functional and ok too ...but he didn't want it...my friend only needed the cage so paid and left..
This guy allegedly was moving and had 2...which is pretty plausible.
I really do think the trailer has been destroyed...I don't think it is able to be located anymore.
If it has been used in the carrying out of murders or implicated in a crime of any sort , I don't think the perpetrator or the murderer is going to care about resale value... or take it to a commercial place that crushes cars etc. He is IMO going to cut it up , sink it or any of the numerous ways to make it vanish.....
I honestly think old Gum Tree is a construct by GL.

sorry I did it again .....edit for apology number 2
 
Now that Police are allegedly looking into "who GL really is" as part of their investigations, I think they may want to account for his movements on our around October 24-25 in 2019.

Niels Becker went missing then and has not been seen since.

He was reportedly at the Vallejo Gantner Hut and believed to be heading to Mount Stirling when he went missing. Niels was a fit and experienced Bushwalker who was only 39 years old and vanished without a trace, similar to Carol and Russell.

His last know location is so close to the Zeka Spur 4WD Track which is the main track into the Wonnangatta Camping Ground.

In my research I noticed that GL very rarely posted on FB but he was very active in the months after Russell and Carol disappeared and he also posted on the 1 year anniversary of their disappearance.

Unfortunately GL's FB has been blocked again overnight and I don't think they will open it up again now. I was looking for a trend...

Prior to GL's Beige 4WD being seized, it was coloured Blue and it was coloured White a few years before that on the Google Street View pictures. I found these multiple changes of vehicle colour very interesting...

It would be good if we could link the approximate dates that his vehicle changed colours, dates of higher than normal FB activity and if any of these dates lined up with other missing persons?

Conrad Whitlock also went missing on July 19 in 2019 from Mt Buller region but there could be other explanations to his disappearance.

It is Niels Becker's disappearance that is the most interesting and probably being looked at again IMO.

One of GL "liked" pages on FB that I noticed is Practical Shooting Supplies. I wonder how often he made purchases from them? Their website has lots of flashy handguns, very modern looking and I wonder what types of Guns were registered to GL and if they have all been accounted for?

One would likely dispose of a weapon it it was used in a homicide etc. IMO.

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Welcome Kath! Like you, I was a long time lurker.
Thanks for posting that link.
I must say, I thought the interview was quite underwhelming and I would have to say, confusing; and I thought the discussion here on Websleuths has been much more insightful!
There are many, many, things Mr Silvester did not mention that are in the public domain and I felt Mr Silvester had not really looked at this and assembled the information.
For instance, that Mr Lynn had been under surveillance for quite some time, certainly from earlier this year and some press said from last year.
And that the police said in March they had identified all vehicles in the valley at the time, except a white dual cab ute; but shortly after (thanks JudgeJudi for finding the article), police said it too had been accounted for after the occupants came forward.
Then in October - November, police they said all vehicles, bar one - a blue Nissan 4WD - had been eliminated (thanks to Theodora for highlighting that distinction).
Police had been searching specific areas, around the Cynthia Track and Herne Spur, in about April this year. They said they were acting on specific information obtained from their investigation, "As a result of information obtained from previous searches", suggesting analysis of data. But both those tracks are part of the east wards exits from the valley, suggesting that the police were aware of the route the perpetrator took out of the valley and that the police had other information.
And police revealed, I think it was late October, that from mid last year, they knew that Mr Hill and Ms Clay were both dead and had been murdered.
Mr Silvester said police were despondent that this would be solved and looked at it as a "cold case". That is not so. It was never a cold case.
And, police were saying from mid last year that they would solve it. Given the amount of mobile phone data, dash camera footage, drone footage from other campers, the cameras at Mt Hotham (and apparently at Dargo and Licola too), fact there is really only three ways into and out of the valley - one of which is blocked - the confidence of police in solving it was not misplaced.
The announcements in late October or early November were designed to put pressure on the person who was their prime suspect. Moreover, Police said they spoke with Mr Lynn "last year". Police said they had conducted about 1,000 interviews - and one witness, who says a blue Nissan in the vicinity of Mr Hill and Ms Clay's camp was interviewed by police more than once - this man was known to people involved in the search and to police, by no later than 01 April, 2020, and so it would make sense that they spoke with Mr Lynn last year, as part of identifying and eliminating from the investigation anyone in the valley. The arson squad detectives were examining the camp site from early April, 2020 and it seems police were highly suspicious of the fire and disappearance from a day or two after they became aware of it, which was about 27 March. Within weeks they would also have known about the late night vehicle movements. How they came to identify the Myrtleford gate has not been revealed, but bizarrely, the area there has mobile coverage and the motorist's phone would have been pinging off the mobile towers. When people disappear, one thing police do is grab all mobile phone tower metadata records....
Apologies for the long rant; but I guess I'm trying for a re-cap so we here can see that this was a brilliant piece of investigation, bringing together a range of resource and a vast array of information. I think that is the story. How did the police manage all this disparate information and in it extract the wheat from the chaff?
Amazing.
 
Hi Sleuther, I couldn't help myself but after seeing your ping pin map (!!) I had to go and map the various areas on google, I think I found the Myrtelford gate turn-back (I'll try and post a screenshot), from what I can gather from the screenshot with the ping pins, both the campsite and the Myrtelford gate turnback are the red pins, the northern one being where he turned around (both are marked Wonnangatta Track on the map in the pic below.
Hello Zanzibar
We discussed the Myrtleford gate a few times.
This post discusses the mobile coverage at the gate.
This post provides a map and also a discussion of timing. [Note: this post says VHF; the radio used is HF, as Motormik pointed out; and Mr Hill's antenna appears to be missing.]
There are other posts that discuss time lines, but, given all the discussion, this looks more or less feasible: [What do others think?]
20 March, 10am, estimated - Mr Hill and Ms Clay leave Howitt High Plains, where they camped 19 March. From here they head into the Wonnangatta Valley, via Zeka spur track.
12:30pm - estimated arrival Wonnangatta valley. [Howitt to Wonnangatta is abotu 26 km; Zeka is a rough track of some 23 km and takes about 2 1/2 hrs, at an average of about 10km, allowing for stops]
12:30pm - 14:00pm - set up camp (estimated: allowing 90 mins to do that.)
16:30: Mr Hill is seen flying his drone.
18:00 - 18:40 - Radio call.
18:40 - 19:00 - pack away antenna, etc
19:00 - 22:00 - likely time when Mr Hill and Ms Clay were killed.
22:00 - midnight - killer packs up his own camp, places bodies in vehicle for transport out of valley; torches Mr Hill's tent. This may have been the last thing done.
Midnight - 1:00 am - from campsite to Myrtleford gate. The vehicle is heard by other campers in the valley. They describe a petrol vehicle towing a trailer. This is a distance of some 18 km; it is ascending and although a reasonable track, the trip without a trailer can take in daylight, about 40 mins. On a night, with little moon, and possibly towing a trailer, it is likely to take close to an hour. [From a discussion on Reddit]
01:00 - 01:45 - driver executes a 30 point U-turn. In the dark.
01:45 - 02:30 - return to valley floor. It is not clear whether the vehicle runs along the track of the valley floor or avoid the valley and takes Riley's track [Any thoughts from readers?]
02:30 - 05:00 - The drive out of the valley to the Union Spur - Providence Spur likely to take about 2 1/2 hours.
05:00 - 06:00 - Bury bodies on Union Spure track, near Providence Spurt track turn off.
06:00 - 07:00 - Drive from burial site to Grant Historical Area exit. [It is likely less than an hour, but the person would need to stop, answer calls of nature etc.]
07:00 - Exit Grant Historical Area onto Dargo High Plains road.
07:30 - Vehicle snapped at Mt Hotham. It is 50 km from McMillan's road, the likely point where the vehicle joined the Dargo High Plains road.
There are likely other data points for vehicle after this but they have not been made public.
 
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