Australia - Russell Hill & Carol Clay Murdered While Camping - Wonnangatta Valley, 2020 #8

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TootsieFootsie said:
It's exactly what you would have to start off thinking in a fair trial, that the accused is innocent til proven guilty.

To me it doesn't mean that the judge believes the deaths were accidental.
He is trying to abide by innocent til proven guilty.
He's trying to give no reasons the defence could use for a mistrial.

I had to sleep on that.
Click to expand...
Thinking similarly. If Lynn didn't have a case to answer those 12 people wouldn't be being locked away in that room trying to come to a verdict. It's in their hands now.
 
TootsieFootsie said:
It's exactly what you would have to start off thinking in a fair trial, that the accused is innocent til proven guilty.

To me it doesn't mean that the judge believes the deaths were accidental.
He is trying to abide by innocent til proven guilty.
He's trying to give no reasons the defence could use for a mistrial.

I had to sleep on that.
Click to expand...

I don't think that Dermot Dann necessarily thinks the deaths were accidental either. He is just doing his defence job in the only way that he can think of doing it.

While it is difficult to prove the prosecution's case, it must be equally hard to defend the accused's case after he obliterated all of the evidence. No fingerprints of Russell's on a 'black kitchen knife', no intact remains to show that he 'fell on his knife and pierced his own heart area', no pics of 'bruising' on Lynn's body to show he actually got into any 'physical struggle'.

imo
 
AussieIan said:
*cof cof*

thanks Crouch
Click to expand...


Defence on the other hand, Justice Croucher said, argued that all available evidence supported Mr Lynn's account
of two accidental deaths, and his actions were the result of panic and fear that he would be wrongly blamed.


The defence's barrister did his darndest to destroy the credibility of ballistics specialist Leading Senior Constable Paul Griffiths (as any good barrister should). Nevertheless, IMO this evidence was compelling. I do not agree that "all available evidence supported Mr Lynn's account".
 
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AussieIan said:
I don't mean to speak ill of the dead but RH clearly loved CC and it would be completely understandable to attack someone he believed responsible for her death.
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I don't think so. Russell was 74 years old. He may have had a sharp tongue and suffered no fools, but he also had a communication source ... his ham radio.

If Carol was the sole light of his life, I don't think he would have been trying so hard to walk the line between his family and Carol.

I think if he had any sense that some serious trouble was going down, he would have put out a call on his ham radio. I think he just didn't realise he was dealing with an alleged killer who would sacrifice two lives for his job and his membership to an exclusive gun club.

And I highly doubt he would have got into ANY physical struggle when he was always going to come out second best against a much younger man.

imo
 
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jjleroche said:
AussieIan said:



Defence on the other hand, Justice Croucher said, argued that all available evidence supported Mr Lynn's account
of two accidental deaths, and his actions were the result of panic and fear that he would be wrongly blamed.


The defence's barrister did his darndest to destroy the credibility of ballistics specialist Leading Senior Constable Paul Griffiths (as any good barrister should). Nevertheless, IMO this evidence was compelling. I do not agree that "all available evidence supported Mr Lynn's account".
Click to expand...
Is there a transcript available of Griffiths evidence? From what I’ve read it doesn’t seem compelling at all, but perhaps that’s because the media have only really reported what Dann challenged.

Could also be why the jury have asked to rewatch his testimony.
 
SnEHnESnE said:
Is there a transcript available of Griffiths evidence? From what I’ve read it doesn’t seem compelling at all, but perhaps that’s because the media have only really reported what Dann challenged.

Could also be why the jury have asked to rewatch his testimony.
Click to expand...

There is a pretty good description of his testimony in this article, if you can read it. It may or may not be all he said. IDK

(paraphrased)

He took the jury through how to manually load the magazine, rack the bolt-action firearm and c@ck it before releasing the safety mechanism and pulling the trigger.
He did a drop test.
He noted it had a cross-bolt safety mechanism.
He determined the 3.95kg trigger weight.
It was his opinion that the gun had been set up for a left-hander.
He tested the scenario of 2 approx 6-foot men struggling over the firearm on the bonnet of the vehicle, with a shot going through the side mirror and into a crouching figure near the rear wheel (Lynn's story - don't know what happened to his ricochet story, sounds like he changed it).
He said the gun passed all of the tests, it did not discharge.

He visited both Bucks Camp and the Union Spur Track disposal site. Scoured them with a metal detector. Found a remnant of a 12-guage shotgun slug at Bucks Camp, the slug had been through a significant impact (presumably that means not shot into the air, and not run over by a vehicle in the soft dirt of the campground).

He had no crime scene, no car mirror, no body, things that didn't exist (any more) ... so his job was harder.

www.theage.com.au

Bolt-action shotgun police say killed camper shown to jury

A ballistics expert has told a jury the shotgun police allege was used to murder camper Carol Clay would be difficult to fire accidentally.
www.theage.com.au www.theage.com.au
 
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solari said:
Do damp tests include psychedelics like LSD, psilocybin, or mescaline use? Combined with alcohol while he's off work for a few days bushing it? Based on this information doesn't appear they do, correct me if I'm wrong but if he got drunk a few days before a shift the tests they do won't pick up anything if he had no alcohol in his blood stream by the time of his shift.
But also I mentioned that he may have been completely sober.
DAMPs testing
Drug and alcohol management plans (DAMPs)
View attachment 511311
Click to expand...
To be honest I could not confirm the other drugs you have mentioned.
 
I find it interesting they asked for Griffiths testimony considering he was the most criticised witness I saw.

Mr Dann KC zeroed in on the fact that prosecutors did not ask the police officer any questions about the trajectory tests, despite him being the only witness giving evidence about ballistics.

The barrister drew the witness's attention to one set of tests Senior Constable Griffiths said he conducted, modelling a scenario where the victim was crouching when struck in the head.

Senior Constable Griffiths was unable to answer some questions about that test, telling the court photographs documenting it had either gone missing or were never taken.
Click to expand...

Under cross examination, Senior Constable Griffiths came under fire for failing to check Lynn's story before performing trajectory tests.

The jury heard the detective had not used Lynn's shotgun to perform the tests, despite previously telling a preliminary hearing he had.
Click to expand...
I'm sure you get the same result using the same model gun but if you're going to lie like that in a double homicide case don't get caught Griffiths, It's not a good look.

SouthAussie said:
There is a pretty good description of his testimony in this article, if you can read it. It may or may not be all he said. IDK

He did a drop test.
He tested the scenario of 2 approx 6-foot men struggling over the firearm on the bonnet of the vehicle, with a shot going through the side mirror and into a crouching figure near the rear wheel
He said the gun passed all of the tests, it did not discharge.

www.theage.com.au

Bolt-action shotgun police say killed camper shown to jury

A ballistics expert has told a jury the shotgun police allege was used to murder camper Carol Clay would be difficult to fire accidentally.
www.theage.com.au www.theage.com.au
Click to expand...

I'd love if we could actually get transcripts for these cases because none of the articles have a solid answer of how he actually tested the struggle scenario. The way the articles written it sounds like his way of testing that scenario was to drop it and see if it discharged, which doesn't counteract Lynns defence.

Someone mentioned a site publishes court transcripts and they're like $15 for a days. Does anyone know what the site is I'd be happy to buy em.


I'm off to go sit in court myself now, although for this one I am definitely hoping the murder charge comes through.
 
SouthAussie said:
There is a pretty good description of his testimony in this article, if you can read it. It may or may not be all he said. IDK

(paraphrased)

He took the jury through how to manually load the magazine, rack the bolt-action firearm and c@ck it before releasing the safety mechanism and pulling the trigger.
He did a drop test.
He noted it had a cross-bolt safety mechanism.
He determined the 3.95kg trigger weight.
It was his opinion that the gun had been set up for a left-hander.
He tested the scenario of 2 approx 6-foot men struggling over the firearm on the bonnet of the vehicle, with a shot going through the side mirror and into a crouching figure near the rear wheel (Lynn's story - don't know what happened to his ricochet story, sounds like he changed it).
He said the gun passed all of the tests, it did not discharge.

He visited both Bucks Camp and the Union Spur Track disposal site. Scoured them with a metal detector. Found a remnant of a 12-guage shotgun slug at Bucks Camp, the slug had been through a significant impact (presumably that means not shot into the air, and not run over by a vehicle in the soft dirt of the campground).

He had no crime scene, no car mirror, no body, things that didn't exist (any more) ... so his job was harder.

www.theage.com.au

Bolt-action shotgun police say killed camper shown to jury

A ballistics expert has told a jury the shotgun police allege was used to murder camper Carol Clay would be difficult to fire accidentally.
www.theage.com.au www.theage.com.au
Click to expand...
One would think at least one juror's verdict is hinging on their second listen to this information.
 
Doesitmakesense said:
Mr Stein had claimed he saw Ms Mutten shoot her daughter at the family property on the night of January 12.

But the jury ignored his version of events and found he was the person who murdered Charlise.


So this shows it is possible for a jury to see through the bs, and disregard the defendants version of events
Click to expand...
Some of the b.s. defence lawyers expect jury's to believe is just plain comical. But in some cases they have to offer the jury anything other than the truth and at times that doesn't leave them much to work with.

That said, some defence lawyers are highly skilled at spinning a story and that's why they are able to command such high fees.
 
www.abc.net.au

Jury in Greg Lynn murder trial given approval to re-watch testimony from accused and ballistics expert

Jurors deliberating in the murder trial of Greg Lynn over the deaths of two Victorian campers will re-watch testimony from the accused and a ballistics expert after being given approval by the judge. The jury has been considering its verdict since Monday.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au

Jury in Greg Lynn's murder trial will re-watch testimony from accused camper killer and ballistics expert​



Missing campers jury asks to review key evidence​

The jury in the trial of accused high country killer Greg Lynn has asked to watch the former pilot’s testimony again as it considers its verdict in the high-profile case.
 
Cliff Hardy said:
That said, some defence lawyers are highly skilled at spinning a story and that's why they are able to command such high fees.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I should go back to uni :D although if I can't convince you guys those high fees will remain out of reach...
 
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