Australia - Russell Hill & Carol Clay Murdered While Camping - Wonnangatta Valley, 2020 #8

[AussieIan]

The prosecution have put forward their case for 2 murder convictions. In this particular case, manslaughter would probably mean you would need to believe parts of Lynn's story, which the prosecution say is a lie.

Hmmm

I do wonder if that will come back to bite them.

So you're saying...
If you were driving down the road and someone ran in front of the car and you accidentally killed them, it would be quite reasonable to put their body in your boot, drive to some bushland and dump it so you could avoid a lengthy investigation, questions, and the potential to be stood down from your job for a while?
Wow.

If someone ran in front of my car tonight and got hit? No. I'd ring it in.

Had i had a few drinks?
Was i speeding?
Do I have a family reliant on my good job? Am I facing a near decade in jail?
Am I couriering drugs or doing anything illegal when the accident happens?

If there were any signs of life I'd phone it in. If they were 100% deceased?

Trying to make it go away would cross my mind.

 

[jjleroche]

3 days in to the Jury's deliberations after many weeks of trial. If this doesn't say " doubt" I do not know what would. If found guilty their will be an appeal and he will walk no doubt about it imo. If found not guilty will he walk from the dock or can police lay charges in relation to the manner in which he disposed of the bodies?

Interesting post ScottToorak. On what basis do you believe that the defendant will appeal if found guilty, and on what basis do you believe that such an appeal would be successful?

I am not a lawyer, but IMO Vicpol could lay charges in relation to the manner in which he disposed of the bodies.
Section 254 of The Crimes Act (Victoria) refers to Destruction of Evidence.

https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/ca195882/s254.html

IMO he could also be charged under S34BB of the Crimes Act Offensive Conduct Involving Human Remains

https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/ca195882/s34bb.html#:~:text=CRIMES%20ACT%201958%20%2D%20SECT%2034BB,-Offensive%20conduct%20involving&text=(4)%20For%20the%20purposes%20of,the%20minds%20of%20reasonable%20persons.

MOO

 

[ProfCluezo]

Yes - if the accused is innocent as he claims why would he destroy every single piece of evidence that could conceivably verify his innocence if he truly has nothing to hide (apart from his “unfortunate” presence at the time of both of these tragic “accidents”?). It makes no sense whatsoever to not keep some evidence at least to prove his innocence in the event he couldn’t make the deaths “go away”… and assuming police might eventually track him down …. Instead of thinking through how to save evidence to confirm his purported “innocence”, the accused has gone to extensive lengths to destroy every piece of evidence…. while concocting an elaborate and highly unlikely story without any physical remains to establish the cause of death which points to exactly the opposite of his claims to “innocence”…

 

[CoffeeHug]

Hmmm

I do wonder if that will come back to bite them.


If someone ran in front of my car tonight and got hit? No. I'd ring it in.

Had i had a few drinks?
Was i speeding?
Do I have a family reliant on my good job? Am I facing a near decade in jail?
Am I couriering drugs or doing anything illegal when the accident happens?

If there were any signs of life I'd phone it in. If they were 100% deceased?

Trying to make it go away would cross my mind.

Let's just say your panicked reaction was to remove any evidence of the accident and you hid the body hoping it would 'go away'. Once the panic passes, would you not think, this person has a family, this was a human being, their family needs them back? Then go to the police and let them know, even if you tried anonymously to let them know where they were? I wonder, have you ever lost someone very close yourself? Have you ever had someone very close go missing with no clue what happened to them? Do you have any idea what that is like?

Granted there are some situations where you don't know how you'd react unless you experience them, but it won't go away. You'll know. It will always be with you. Even if you don't feel guilt, surely there's the fear of always looking over your shoulder and wondering when/if it would catch up with you? There's no peace in that. That sort of thing doesn't go away.

 

[ProfCluezo]

Let's just say your panicked reaction was to remove any evidence of the accident and you hid the body hoping it would 'go away'. Once the panic passes, would you not think, this person has a family, this was a human being, their family needs them back? Then go to the police and let them know, even if you tried anonymously to let them know where they were? I wonder, have you ever lost someone very close yourself? Have you ever had someone very close go missing with no clue what happened to them? Do you have any idea what that is like?

Granted there are some situations where you don't know how you'd react unless you experience them, but it won't go away. You'll know. It will always be with you. Even if you don't feel guilt, surely there's the fear of always looking over your shoulder and wondering when/if it would catch up with you? There's no peace in that. That sort of thing doesn't go away.

“Macbeth hath murdered sleep…”?

 

[drsleuth]

Hmmm

I do wonder if that will come back to bite them.


If someone ran in front of my car tonight and got hit? No. I'd ring it in.

Had i had a few drinks?
Was i speeding?
Do I have a family reliant on my good job? Am I facing a near decade in jail?
Am I couriering drugs or doing anything illegal when the accident happens?

If there were any signs of life I'd phone it in. If they were 100% deceased?

Trying to make it go away would cross my mind.

BBM : And that's what's wrong with this world, people who only thinking of themselves, with no thought for others. IMO

 

[CoffeeHug]

“Macbeth hath murdered sleep…”?

Very much so, I'd imagine! (Shakespeare fan and Macbeth is my favourite play)

 

[SouthAussie]

SouthAussie, do you remember if GL testified that the gun was loaded or not?
It makes absolutely no sense that RH would take the gun AND the ammunition (which I think should be stored separately) and then prepare that gun for fire. I totally agree with you, I don't see him doing that.

IMOO

No, I don't remember that, But the accused does say Russell took the shotgun and magazine. And that the shotgun was in its gun bag in his vehicle.

Presumably (being a good gun owner who didn't want to lose his exclusive gun club membership or his pilot's card) Lynn would have stored the gun unloaded in its gun bag in a locked vehicle. If he stored it. But I haven't seen that addressed in the media.

Lynn also heard Russell rustling around in his vehicle (despite the apparently obnoxiously loud music).


"He said he then heard rustling, and looked up to see Hill walking away from Lynn’s car with his shotgun and a magazine of ammunition."

‘I wanted it to go away’: Greg Lynn told police he ‘panicked’ after campers’ deaths, murder trial hears

Court shown part of 2021 police interview by former pilot, who has pleaded not guilty to murdering Russell Hill and Carol Clay

www.theguardian.com

 

[Cliff Hardy]

Yes - if the accused is innocent as he claims why would he destroy every single piece of evidence that could conceivably verify his innocence if he truly has nothing to hide (apart from his “unfortunate” presence at the time of both of these tragic “accidents”?). It makes no sense whatsoever to not keep some evidence at least to prove his innocence in the event he couldn’t make the deaths “go away”… and assuming police might eventually track him down …. Instead of thinking through how to save evidence to confirm his purported “innocence”, the accused has gone to extensive lengths to destroy every piece of evidence…. while concocting an elaborate and highly unlikely story without any physical remains to establish the cause of death which points to exactly the opposite of his claims to “innocence”…

Lynn came back and burned the bodies months after the event. Months that he had to think and rethink things though and more than enough time for him to make an informed decision. Yet he still chose to totally destroy the very evidence that - if you believe his story - would have been so invaluable to his defence these past 4 or 5 weeks.

I suspect Hill had a bullet hole in his head and that made Lynn's mind up for him about how he would progress.

 

[SouthAussie]

Maybe Lynn admits he wasn't such a good gun owner ..... In the police interview, Lynn said he asked for the gun back, ran after Hill and let “a couple of rounds go into the air”. He told police he struggled with Hill for control of the loaded shotgun.

Somehow it got loaded ....... The court heard the shotgun needed to be cocked and loaded each time to fire.

A camping trip turned fatal: as the trial of Greg Lynn draws to a close, key questions remain

Twist after elderly love cheat, 74, was allegedly murdered with lover

The shotgun slug that killed elderly camper Carol Clay remained buried at the original crime scene in Victoria's remote wilderness for just under two years.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[JBowie]

“Macbeth hath murdered sleep…”?

Something wicked this way comes ...

 

[AussieIan]

Let's just say your panicked reaction was to remove any evidence of the accident and you hid the body hoping it would 'go away'. Once the panic passes, would you not think, this person has a family, this was a human being, their family needs them back? Then go to the police and let them know, even if you tried anonymously to let them know where they were? I wonder, have you ever lost someone very close yourself? Have you ever had someone very close go missing with no clue what happened to them? Do you have any idea what that is like?

Granted there are some situations where you don't know how you'd react unless you experience them, but it won't go away. You'll know. It will always be with you. Even if you don't feel guilt, surely there's the fear of always looking over your shoulder and wondering when/if it would catch up with you? There's no peace in that. That sort of thing doesn't go away.

Of course I would and I'd feel pretty <modsnip> about it. I'd probably write a letter explaining what happened and leave it with the family lawyer in the event I get hit by a bus tomorrow it's sent to the authorities and family.

You're also committed once you went as far as Lynn. People say burning the bodies proved his callousness but look at what he'd already done. What was he supposed to do, lead the police to the bodies and say "yeah I panicked and tried to cover it up but I realised I was wrong, anyways I'll go lock myself up for the foreseeable future now"

BBM : And that's what's wrong with this world, people who only thinking of themselves, with no thought for others. IMO

If someones breathing I'm 100% on the phone, whether im in trouble or not. If I killed someone through negligence and I was facing a couple of years that's fine.

But if someone causes or takes an action leading to their own death in front of me where I'm busy doing some illegal stuff, I'm probably not phoning the cops. I'm just being honest. Not directed at you but I think some people here are kidding themselves a bit with how forthcoming they think they'd be if they could be facing a decade or more in jail.



I wonder what would have happened if Lynn had contacted the police assuming his version of events was what happened.

Would an overzealous prosecutor wanting some headlines would have thrown manslaughter charges at him.
Lynn would probably wonder that as well.

If you ring the cops It's a coinflip where you end up, but no matter what it's public and permanent.
If you cover it up, you might get caught later or you might get on with life.

 

[CoffeeHug]

Of course I would and I'd feel pretty <modsnip> about it. I'd probably write a letter explaining what happened and leave it with the family lawyer in the event I get hit by a bus tomorrow it's sent to the authorities and family.

You're also committed once you went as far as Lynn. People say burning the bodies proved his callousness but look at what he'd already done. What was he supposed to do, lead the police to the bodies and say "yeah I panicked and tried to cover it up but I realised I was wrong, anyways I'll go lock myself up for the foreseeable future now"



If someones breathing I'm 100% on the phone, whether im in trouble or not. If I killed someone through negligence and I was facing a couple of years that's fine.

But if someone causes or takes an action leading to their own death in front of me where I'm busy doing some illegal stuff, I'm probably not phoning the cops. I'm just being honest. Not directed at you but I think some people here are kidding themselves a bit with how forthcoming they say they'd be.

The longer you leave it, the worse it gets really. At some point, for your own peace of mind, no matter how committed you are or what you have done, you might feel owning up is worth turning yourself in, just so you don't have to carry it anymore. It may be worse to live with than face the consequences at some point. I've never been in that situation but that's how I feel I'd be.

The letter with the lawyer thing doesn't fly with me. The family may die never knowing if they outlive you. Having had someone missing for a very short period of time, I know that the only thing worse than finding them dead would be not knowing.

 

[SouthAussie]

Not directed at you but I think some people here are kidding themselves a bit with how forthcoming they think they'd be if they could be facing a decade or more in jail.

Probably most people here wouldn't get themselves into Lynn's kind of situation in the first place.
They would probably be more like Russell and Carol, and that is why they easily empathise with them and their families.

imo

 

[solari]

Of course I would and I'd feel pretty <modsnip> about it. I'd probably write a letter explaining what happened and leave it with the family lawyer in the event I get hit by a bus tomorrow it's sent to the authorities and family.

You're also committed once you went as far as Lynn. People say burning the bodies proved his callousness but look at what he'd already done. What was he supposed to do, lead the police to the bodies and say "yeah I panicked and tried to cover it up but I realised I was wrong, anyways I'll go lock myself up for the foreseeable future now"



If someones breathing I'm 100% on the phone, whether im in trouble or not. If I killed someone through negligence and I was facing a couple of years that's fine.

But if someone causes or takes an action leading to their own death in front of me where I'm busy doing some illegal stuff, I'm probably not phoning the cops. I'm just being honest. Not directed at you but I think some people here are kidding themselves a bit with how forthcoming they think they'd be if they could be facing a decade or more in jail.



I wonder what would have happened if Lynn had contacted the police assuming his version of events was what happened.

Would an overzealous prosecutor wanting some headlines would have thrown manslaughter charges at him.
Lynn would probably wonder that as well.

If you ring the cops It's a coinflip where you end up, but no matter what it's public and permanent.
If you cover it up, you might get caught later or you might get on with life.

Some of us have a firm moral compass. I find it rather appalling to know you would behave in the way GL did based on his account of events, or on the example scenario discussed you would consider doing that, it's sickening, imo. I would rather spend life in prison than be a dishonest person with zero empathy or conscious for the people who knew the victim or the victims themselves.
What kind of human would you have to be care so selfishly about yourself over actual justice, if you do something wrong as a decent human you should have the guts to own up, be an honest person and not act selfishly.
"Some people are kidding themselves", who are you to assume that about some of us sleuthers? Some of us chose to be honest people and would remain honest in a terrible series of events and circumstances.

 

[SouthAussie]

I doubt that many of us would even know what would happen to us, if we were involved in a "tragic accident" or two tragic accidents occurring within minutes of each other.

For myself, I don't think I would have the foresight to "panic" and immediately destroy/remove all of the Bucks Camp evidence. Nor worry about my job and my life. I would likely be too distraught that there were two dead people laying in front of me.

I hate even hearing of deer shot and killed for their antlers.

imo

 

[emirates1957]

No, I don't remember that, But the accused does say Russell took the shotgun and magazine. And that the shotgun was in its gun bag in his vehicle.

Presumably (being a good gun owner who didn't want to lose his exclusive gun club membership or his pilot's card) Lynn would have stored the gun unloaded in its gun bag in a locked vehicle. If he stored it. But I haven't seen that addressed in the media.

Lynn also heard Russell rustling around in his vehicle (despite the apparently obnoxiously loud music).


"He said he then heard rustling, and looked up to see Hill walking away from Lynn’s car with his shotgun and a magazine of ammunition."

‘I wanted it to go away’: Greg Lynn told police he ‘panicked’ after campers’ deaths, murder trial hears

Court shown part of 2021 police interview by former pilot, who has pleaded not guilty to murdering Russell Hill and Carol Clay

www.theguardian.com

When we were in court on the day he testified from memory the gun was not loaded and the magazine was sitting on the front passenger seat. Prosecution asked how would Russell know which one to load (big gun, big magazine) !!

 

[CoffeeHug]

I doubt that many of us would even know what would happen to us, if we were involved in a "tragic accident" or two tragic accidents occurring within minutes of each other.

For myself, I don't think I would have the foresight to "panic" and immediately destroy/remove all of the Bucks Camp evidence. Nor worry about my job and my life. I would likely be too distraught that there were two dead people laying in front of me.

I hate even hearing of deer shot and killed for their antlers.

imo

I don't think we really know how we'd react. My thought is panic a bit first, but that wouldn't be supported by past experience. One time I was somewhere where someone was injured (nothing criminal and I wasn't involved at all, genuine accident in another party) and people around me freaked out while I cooly stepped in and administered the perfect first aid. I also know I can go numb and go through the right motions when faced with a personally traumatic situation. Emotions hit me later. So who knows really? Definitely not destroy or touch anything though.

 

[AussieIan]

The longer you leave it, the worse it gets really. At some point, for your own peace of mind, no matter how committed you are or what you have done, you might feel owning up is worth turning yourself in, just so you don't have to carry it anymore. It may be worse to live with than face the consequences at some point. I've never been in that situation but that's how I feel I'd be.

The letter with the lawyer thing doesn't fly with me. The family may die never knowing if they outlive you. Having had someone missing for a very short period of time, I know that the only thing worse than finding them dead would be not knowing.

You're not wrong. It would be an incredibly heavy burden to carry for the rest of your life.

Some of us have a firm moral compass. I find it rather appalling to know you would behave in the way GL did based on his account of events, or on the example scenario discussed you would consider doing that, it's sickening, imo. I would rather spend life in prison than be a dishonest person with zero empathy or conscious for the people who knew the victim or the victims themselves.
What kind of human would you have to be care so selfishly about yourself over actual justice, if you do something wrong as a decent human you should have the guts to own up, be an honest person and not act selfishly.
"Some people are kidding themselves", who are you to assume that about some of us sleuthers? Some of us chose to be honest people and would remain honest in a terrible series of events and circumstances.

I don't know how I'd behave. This is all hypothetical. If it was obviously an accident it was obviously an accident. Call the cops.

If it's not obviously an accident you could be spending your life in prison as an innocent. If you think there is a realistic chance of you being wrongly accused of something as serious as manslaughter or murder you would be stupid to put your hand up straight away. At the very least remove yourself from the situation and hand yourself in at a later date with a lawyer.

If Lynn had contacted the police and not disposed of the bodies do you think he would have been believed or ended up charged with serious offences?

What kind of human would you have to be care so selfishly about yourself over actual justice,

If the death is through misadventure or accident on behalf of the deceased what justice is there to serve?

if you do something wrong as a decent human you should have the guts to own up, be an honest person

We've been talking about accidents resulting in death from misadventure initiated by the deceased, like grabbing at a firearm, running in front of a car or attacking someone with a knife and falling on it. There's nothing for you to 'own up' to. It's just an accident.

"Some people are kidding themselves", who are you to assume that about some of us sleuthers? Some of us chose to be honest people

I mean statistically some of you are just following group conformity, saying the feel good moral thing with no idea how they'd actually act. I'm sure some of you genuinely would risk wrongful life imprisonment so a family has closure though.

I'd say I'm honest. In fact I'm being very honest right now.

I doubt that many of us would even know what would happen to us, if we were involved in a "tragic accident" or two tragic accidents occurring within minutes of each other.

A couple of years ago I had a woman die on the pavement while I was trying to treat her stab wounds. I keep stab pads at work but by the time I'd sent someone to retrieve them and they returned she'd bled out too much. You know what I saw when the paramedics arrived and I looked up? Phones. People were just filming her. Middle of the CBD. 30 or so. Didn't seem bothered a human being had died in front of them. Sending it to their friends. It was excitement to them. Like putting her into their phone and seeing it on the screen made it entertainment, like it wasn't real.



I would feel absolutely awful if I made a decision to cover up a deadly accident, but I'm also not going to throw away my entire life if I hadn't actually caused any harm.


I thought more people would think like that. Maybe I'm just jaded.

 

[Bats]

Of course I would and I'd feel pretty <modsnip> about it. I'd probably write a letter explaining what happened and leave it with the family lawyer in the event I get hit by a bus tomorrow it's sent to the authorities and family.

You're also committed once you went as far as Lynn. People say burning the bodies proved his callousness but look at what he'd already done. What was he supposed to do, lead the police to the bodies and say "yeah I panicked and tried to cover it up but I realised I was wrong, anyways I'll go lock myself up for the foreseeable future now"



If someones breathing I'm 100% on the phone, whether im in trouble or not. If I killed someone through negligence and I was facing a couple of years that's fine.

But if someone causes or takes an action leading to their own death in front of me where I'm busy doing some illegal stuff, I'm probably not phoning the cops. I'm just being honest. Not directed at you but I think some people here are kidding themselves a bit with how forthcoming they think they'd be if they could be facing a decade or more in jail.



I wonder what would have happened if Lynn had contacted the police assuming his version of events was what happened.

Would an overzealous prosecutor wanting some headlines would have thrown manslaughter charges at him.
Lynn would probably wonder that as well.

If you ring the cops It's a coinflip where you end iup, but no matter what it's public and permanent.
If you cover it up, you might get caught later or you might get on with life.

Do you not see the incredible irony with what you're suggesting here @AussieIan?

There was a great episode of the twilight zone years ago...An unknown man knocked at the door with a box that had a button on it. He said to the man who opened the door, "if you press this button, you will receive a fortune to spend how you wish, but someone unknown to you will die. I will come back tomorrow to collect the box......he came back to collect the box the next day and the button has been pushed. "Thank you" he said, "now you will receive a fortune and this box will be reset and given to someone unknown to you"