Australia - Russell Hill & Carol Clay Murdered While Camping - Wonnangatta Valley, 2020 #8

[Oz Jen]

That's a pretty fair reaction to have.

Now if those 2 dead people had been abusive to you all day, other campers had seen and you'd blown up at them in public. A couple hours later they're both dead and woopsie they somehow accidentally shot each other with no witnesses. Would any part of you pause for a fraction of a second and think 'oh merde they might think I had something to do with it?' or 'they'll never believe this was an accident'.

Of course most people would just press on and have faith that the truth prevails, but once you've got that in your mind it'd be hard to get out.

Don't take this as a dig at you Toots but If people don't consider jail as a possible consequence for admitting something like that they've been living a very sheltered life. I don't see why you'd suffer terrible guilt either if it was an accident.

I'd be curious if you felt the same a few years into your sentence.

I am glad a lot of you guys took a strong stance on coming forward, it's inspiring to see. I'm far from perfect and seeing how one sided the opinions are it's given me something to think about.


That's a pretty fair reaction to have.

Now if those 2 dead people had been abusive to you all day, other campers had seen and you'd blown up at them in public. A couple hours later they're both dead and woopsie they somehow accidentally shot each other with no witnesses. Would any part of you pause for a fraction of a second and think 'oh merde they might think I had something to do with it?' or 'they'll never believe this was an accident'.

Of course most people would just press on and have faith that the truth prevails, but once you've got that in your mind it'd be hard to get out.

 

[Oz Jen]

That's a pretty fair reaction to have.

Now if those 2 dead people had been abusive to you all day, other campers had seen and you'd blown up at them in public. A couple hours later they're both dead and woopsie they somehow accidentally shot each other with no witnesses. Would any part of you pause for a fraction of a second and think 'oh merde they might think I had something to do with it?' or 'they'll never believe this was an accident'.

Of course most people would just press on and have faith that the truth prevails, but once you've got that in your mind it'd be hard to get out.

Not sure where these "2 dead people had been abusive to you all day, other campers had seen" came from? I don't understand this: "they accidentally shot each other"?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Russell and Carol aren't on trial here, they are the victims.

Not meaning you @Oz Jen

 

[TootsieFootsie]

A bit less than one hour til the 4pm closure of court for the day.

That just leaves one sitting day this week, tomorrow, Friday.

 

[CredibleSauce]

Hmmm

I do wonder if that will come back to bite them.


If someone ran in front of my car tonight and got hit? No. I'd ring it in.

Had i had a few drinks?
Was i speeding?
Do I have a family reliant on my good job? Am I facing a near decade in jail?
Am I couriering drugs or doing anything illegal when the accident happens?

If there were any signs of life I'd phone it in. If they were 100% deceased?

Trying to make it go away would cross my mind.

I’d recommend considering otherwise

 

[Cliff Hardy]

Russell and Carol aren't on trial here, they are the victims.

Victims having fanciful allegations levelled against them that they are not here to defend themselves against is unfortunately par for the course in courtrooms.

 

[Poirot's niece]

Not sure why people struggle to understand this.

It doesn't matter if the evidence showed he was innocent, there would still be a lengthy investigation, questions raised, probably stood down from work, possibility of any number of charges being laid, his family under a microscope, national attention etc etc.

Or.

Try cover it up and potentially......NOTHING.



Was anything mentioned about why the manslaughter charges were removed last week? Seems risky not to give a jury that option if there are uncertainties.

Well yes but at least two families were put through hell waiting. And if you have a conscience, if you can't live with the thought of endless suffering and a lack of closure for those people traumatised forever. If I accidentally hit and killed a dog in my car I'd be picking it up and finding the owner. I wouldn't have criminal charges but the point is I wouldn't sleep knowing someone's beloved hadn't come home and they didn't know its fate. Now X 2 people in an accidental scenario. We all know he was worried about himself, what he didn't consider for at all or long enough is other people's suffering. Their right to say goodbye, for their lives not to be in a relentless limbo. For the deceased's burial and funeral wishes to be observed. Not knowing is a deep and horrid state. I wouldn't be able to do it. He had plenty of time to reconsider when the searches were on but it was more important for him and his mortgage. It takes a 'special' type of character to go through that charade. A callous disregard for others to even attempt it.

 

[Poirot's niece]

Hmmm

I do wonder if that will come back to bite them.


If someone ran in front of my car tonight and got hit? No. I'd ring it in.

Had i had a few drinks?
Was i speeding?
Do I have a family reliant on my good job? Am I facing a near decade in jail?
Am I couriering drugs or doing anything illegal when the accident happens?

If there were any signs of life I'd phone it in. If they were 100% deceased?

Trying to make it go away would cross my mind.

Perhaps you shouldn't drive.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I would say that most people, even when faced with something terrible like deaths, don't automatically think of themselves and how it would affect them.

 

[mam544]

Something that has never been discussed. Lynn was asked if he had been drinking that night. He replied that he had not and there was no alchohol taken on the trip. Think about this, look at the picture of him. He's a drinker, and a serious one in my opinion. I have never heard of anyone going camping on their own without taking a few beers along. Lynn was probably into spirits too.
I think he was half pissed when the altercation happened. Some people get very aggressive when they have had too much to drink, as we all know. This would explain a lot.

 

[BreakingNews]

I always wanted to be on a jury, but was only called up once. Unfortunately because of where I worked, I wasn't eligible. I could have wept.

I was on a jury for a murder once. It is no picnic!

 

[mam544]

I think from reading peoples posts during the trial and asking the simple question here, What happened that night? and seeing so many people have different versions of events it shows that the prosecution has failed to prove his guilt of murder beyond a reasonable doubt which would be a major issue to me as a juror.

I get that I'm in the minority but to me on the balance of probabilities it's far more likely for a negligent or accidental discharge (with or without a struggle) to have occurred than Lynn cold bloodedly murdering 2 senior citizens over an argument, then leaving a blinking neon sign of a crime scene.


It just doesn't make any sense to me having heard what we have about Lynn that he chooses to kill 2 in cold blood knowing he won't be able to dispose of the car, people will pass through the campground as soon as the early morning and report concerns about the half burnt camp/open car to police, he's got limited amount of night to then dispose of evidence and bodies, difficult terrain to traverse, etc.


Look, I don't think it went down the way Lynn described with RH grabbing his gun and shooting in the air first but I'm far from convinced he meant to kill them as well.

I still think alcohol was the missing factor we should have heard more about in the trial. Unless they thought arguing Lynn was intoxicated would lower his culpability? Surely not?

He was drunk and belidgerent and probably went and threatened them with the shotgun during the altercation. Hill was having none of it and tried to take the shotgun from him and ended up getting shot. He then killed killed Clay in 'cold blood' as she was a witness.

 

[mam544]

I honestly can't see a 74 year old man getting into a physical altercation (or two physical altercations) with a 53 year old man.

At 74 years old, a person knows they can fall and break a hip easily, snap a wrist easily, turn an ankle easily. They have learned their current physical limitations by having little accidents ... when doing things they used to do quite capably.
The old bones are not what they used to be. And when a person is out in the wilderness, medical assistance is a long way away.

imo

Hill was a cantankerous old bugger. None of that would have entered his mind. Especially in front of his girlfriend.

 

[emirates1957]

He was drunk and belidgerent and probably went and threatened them with the shotgun during the altercation. Hill was having none of it and tried to take the shotgun from him and ended up getting shot. He then killed killed Clay in 'cold blood' as she was a witness.

I thought he could have been half cut but his actions speak loudly. One would think after this terrible incident you would down a few drinks if not bottles but he still had the clarity to plan all the events thereafter.

 

[Bats]

DBM

 

[mam544]

Jurors don't receive statistics and they're not allowed to do their own research.

I suspect that 12 "normal" people would deduce that people falling on knives that penetrate the heart would be an extremely rare occurrence. JMO

Never underestimate the stupidity of a jury. In the Mutton trial he said the mother put the barrel containing Callise and 100KG of sand in the back of the ute. That's about 140Kg all up. Did you see the mother? She would be lucky to lift 20Kg. 140kg is the weight of two fully grown women. The jury took eight days to find him guilty when it should have taken 10 minutes.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I was on a trial that involved a death involving a car crash.
No picnic either.
It felt like a huge responsibility to get it right.

 

[CoffeeHug]

Never underestimate the stupidity of a jury. In the Mutton trial he said the mother put the barrel containing Callise and 100KG of sand in the back of the ute. That's about 140Kg all up. Did you see the mother? She would be lucky to lift 20Kg. 140kg is the weight of two fully grown women. The jury took eight days to find him guilty when it should have taken 10 minutes.

Good on the jury for being thorough, I guess, as any jury should be.

 

[mam544]

I thought he could have been half cut but his actions speak loudly. One would think after this terrible incident you would down a few drinks if not bottles but he still had the clarity to plan all the events thereafter.

You would sober up pretty quick if you just shot two people.

 

[SouthAussie]

Well yes but at least two families were put through hell waiting. And if you have a conscience, if you can't live with the thought of endless suffering and a lack of closure for those people traumatised forever. If I accidentally hit and killed a dog in my car I'd be picking it up and finding the owner. I wouldn't have criminal charges but the point is I wouldn't sleep knowing someone's beloved hadn't come home and they didn't know its fate. Now X 2 people in an accidental scenario. We all know he was worried about himself, what he didn't consider for at all or long enough is other people's suffering. Their right to say goodbye, for their lives not to be in a relentless limbo. For the deceased's burial and funeral wishes to be observed. Not knowing is a deep and horrid state. I wouldn't be able to do it. He had plenty of time to reconsider when the searches were on but it was more important for him and his mortgage. It takes a 'special' type of character to go through that charade. A callous disregard for others to even attempt it.

Very possible he is a narcissist. From the little I have read about him.

Preoccupied with himself.
Thinks belonging to an exclusive gun club is a status symbol.
Upset because the RAAF didn't choose him as an elite pilot, so he left the RAAF.
Helped the flight staff clean the cabin so they would all like him.
Doesn't take the blame, it is somebody else's fault.
Doesn't consider others feelings.

I have had personal experience with someone like that. They just don't get it. Socially deaf.

imo