Australia- Two sisters in their 20s found dead inside Sydney unit had been there lengthy time, Suspicious deaths, June 2022

[Charlot123]

I believe we’ll never know. I think, suicide by “dry” self-starvation once they were cut off the source of money is not impossible and could explain different rooms. But essentially, it may not matter that much. They are dead, cremated and sent back. The goal is to decide how to prevent it in the future.

See, if they were abducted to SA, it would have been one thing. But they died in Australia. So two young, beautiful women came to another country. They had enough strength to escape SA, and I assume they knew English, but nothing else about survival. They came from the country where the decisions had been made for them by men, they were very quiet, immature and depended on their home country’s source of income.

Essentially, they had to be taught how to live in a new world, to find a place on a budget, to work, to protect themselves. Probably the resources of any community are limited. I don’t know these sisters’ concrete situation, but in general, two young women can become an asset to any society.

It is sad that so many of them fall through the same cracks.

 

[branmuffin]

I believe we’ll never know. I think, suicide by “dry” self-starvation once they were cut off the source of money is not impossible and could explain different rooms. But essentially, it may not matter that much. They are dead, cremated and sent back. The goal is to decide how to prevent it in the future.

See, if they were abducted to SA, it would have been one thing. But they died in Australia. So two young, beautiful women came to another country. They had enough strength to escape SA, and I assume they knew English, but nothing else about survival. They came from the country where the decisions had been made for them by men, they were very quiet, immature and depended on their home country’s source of income.

Essentially, they had to be taught how to live in a new world, to find a place on a budget, to work, to protect themselves. Probably the resources of any community are limited. I don’t know these sisters’ concrete situation, but in general, two young women can become an asset to any society.

It is sad that so many of them fall through the same cracks.

I don't think they were immature at all. I think it took incredible strength of purpose to travel to a country thousands of miles and time changes away to live their authentic selves. Knowing full well that their actions would put them in the crosshairs of a religion that does not believe in women living an independent life. It was courageous of them to do that and even more daring that they probably did a lot of their research as to where they would end up right under the noses of their family members. I can't even imagine the stress and danger they were in until they actually left. Then on arrival they contacted the people who would provide them with training and jobs which they fully embraced after probably living a life of luxury in SA although one as a caged pet.

It would be unfair to classify these women as immature and incapable of living in a society not bound by the laws in their own country. If I had to suggest a fatal aspect of their defection was accepting family money for day to day expenses which opened the window to track them, knowing their location, their apartment, their jobs, and their contacts which allowed some malign force, perhaps one in the role of an boyfriend, who was nothing more than a bounty hunter whose mission was, find them and bring them back alive or leave them there dead.

There's been a lot of discussion about their frames of mind and erratic behavior which has been labeled as paranoia but anxiety can also create the same effect. Paranoia can have no basis in reality whereas anxiety can be based on real threats. When you have escaped a prison where someone is always going to be looking for you, and you consider yourself a 'nail' then every person may seem like a 'hammer' like the man who came to fix the plumbing.

There's a lot of cases here on WS that I think are death by misadventure like Caleb Harris and Riley Strain that other people think are suspicious, but for me, this ain't one of them.

 

[Charlot123]

I don't think they were immature at all. I think it took incredible strength of purpose to travel to a country thousands of miles and time changes away to live their authentic selves. Knowing full well that their actions would put them in the crosshairs of a religion that does not believe in women living an independent life. It was courageous of them to do that and even more daring that they probably did a lot of their research as to where they would end up right under the noses of their family members. I can't even imagine the stress and danger they were in until they actually left. Then on arrival they contacted the people who would provide them with training and jobs which they fully embraced after probably living a life of luxury in SA although one as a caged pet.

It would be unfair to classify these women as immature and incapable of living in a society not bound by the laws in their own country. If I had to suggest a fatal aspect of their defection was accepting family money for day to day expenses which opened the window to track them, knowing their location, their apartment, their jobs, and their contacts which allowed some malign force, perhaps one in the role of an boyfriend, who was nothing more than a bounty hunter whose mission was, find them and bring them back alive or leave them there dead.

There's been a lot of discussion about their frames of mind and erratic behavior which has been labeled as paranoia but anxiety can also create the same effect. Paranoia can have no basis in reality whereas anxiety can be based on real threats. When you have escaped a prison where someone is always going to be looking for you, and you consider yourself a 'nail' then every person may seem like a 'hammer' like the man who came to fix the plumbing.

There's a lot of cases here on WS that I think are death by misadventure like Caleb Harris and Riley Strain that other people think are suspicious, but for me, this ain't one of them.

So you think they were traced? I am 50/50. They seemed to have been on to a good start, but didn't appear to find a solid support group. It is hard to tell what they were as there are too few real witnesses who knew them well, it seems.

So, your guess is as good as mine. They could have had a good reason to be afraid. Alternatively, they could have been paranoid. It is even possible that it was the case of "folie a deux", when one sister was paranoid and the other one, not at all, but shared the sister's delusions due to being together all the time. We'll never ever know. I have a feeling that had they continued to get financial help, they'd eventually would find a support group, but sadly, it had stopped.

Sometimes I think, what do I even know? One of the best things in any religious community is charity. In Islam it is especially Sadaqah which is non-obligatory and not tied to religion per se. The Big Three, in general, emphasize charity, and maybe the girls expected that someone would notice that they needed help? Our Western world is somewhat different in that you need to proactively tell people that you are in need, and then, of course, help will come. So maybe, this cultural difference played a role? The girls were too shy to ask for help but expected that someone would have noticed, as back home, people were more attentive in that regard?

What do people think?

 

[Rita7]

IMOHO: In order to clarify the mode of death in this particular case (which apparently looks like an equivocal one), investigation should provide postmortem psychiatric and psychological evaluation (or psychological autopsy-PA). But unfortunately, that would never happen; therefore, we will never know the truth, and the tragic end of life of two sweet sisters will remain unsolved.

 

[dotr]

One of the oddest thing about the deaths in this particular case, is that the two young, attractive sisters would each apparently commit suicide whilst nude.
Are they making a 'last' statement of some kind (opposition to cultural dictate to cover up), or maybe even trying to recreate a Muslim style burial (bodies naked & shrouded), with the bed sheets?
rbbm speculation, imo.

Naked Suicide

Suicide attempts and completions by individuals while naked remain unexplored, both by clinicians and in the professional literature. Nakedness at the time of the incident conveys important information about an individual's mental state. Motivations for attempting or completing suicide while...

jaapl.org

Robert I. Simon Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law Online June 2008,

''Little is known about the reasons why individuals attempt or complete suicide while naked. Suicide notes rarely indicate a reason for a naked suicide. Knowledge gained from the treatment of patients, however, can shed light on the motivation for naked suicide. As mentioned earlier, individuals who have made suicide attempts while naked are the best source of information. Table 1 lists some psychological themes that may be associated with naked suicide.''

Is It Common For Women To Commit Suicide In The Nude? | Oxygen Official Site

Learn more about the death of Rebecca Zahau, who, like Marilyn Monroe, was suspected to have committed suicide while in the nude.

www.oxygen.com

''In his 2008 paper “Naked Suicide,” published in the Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law, he offered some insight into what could be behind someone’s decision to end their life while naked.

When it comes to women, Simon noted, naked suicide is considered exceptionally rare, due to the popular concept of “feminine modesty” carrying on even through death.''

''A suicide victim’s nudity could indicate a number of things about their psychological state or reasons for taking their own life, according to Simon. Some of the pychological themes present at naked suicides include the idea of rebirth or cleansing, atonement for guilt, or anger and the desire to traumatize surivors even further''.

“Knowing that one's body will be found naked and taking the trouble to remove clothing has psychological import,” Simon said. “The state of an individual's clothing, including partial undress and nakedness, can provide important clues in a psychological autopsy.”
A naked suicide can also be an expression of “vulnerability, utter despair, desolation and worthlessness,” he added.''

 

[TootsieFootsie]

The being nude part does seem strange.

I just wonder if that's what they chose, or if someone else left them like that.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

IMOHO: In order to clarify the mode of death in this particular case (which apparently looks like an equivocal one), investigation should provide postmortem psychiatric and psychological evaluation (or psychological autopsy-PA). But unfortunately, that would never happen; therefore, we will never know the truth, and the tragic end of life of two sweet sisters will remain unsolved.

Postmortem psychological autopsy for reasons of investigation is controversial, as it should be. Individuals with suicidal behavior can also be murdered or can also have an accident. A psychological autopsy as part of an investigation runs the risk of inherent bias and false conclusions based on a mental health condition. It's discriminatory with higher than average risks of being inaccurate, IMO. Psychological autopsies should only be reserved for research and preventative education in cases in which suicide is ruled the manner of death by evidence. MOO based on my experience.

 

[Dotta]

One of the oddest thing about the deaths in this particular case, is that the two young, attractive sisters would each apparently commit suicide whilst nude.
Are they making a 'last' statement of some kind (opposition to cultural dictate to cover up), or maybe even trying to recreate a Muslim style burial (bodies naked & shrouded), with the bed sheets?
rbbm speculation, imo.

Naked Suicide

Suicide attempts and completions by individuals while naked remain unexplored, both by clinicians and in the professional literature. Nakedness at the time of the incident conveys important information about an individual's mental state. Motivations for attempting or completing suicide while...

jaapl.org

Robert I. Simon Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law Online June 2008,

''Little is known about the reasons why individuals attempt or complete suicide while naked. Suicide notes rarely indicate a reason for a naked suicide. Knowledge gained from the treatment of patients, however, can shed light on the motivation for naked suicide. As mentioned earlier, individuals who have made suicide attempts while naked are the best source of information. Table 1 lists some psychological themes that may be associated with naked suicide.''

Is It Common For Women To Commit Suicide In The Nude? | Oxygen Official Site

Learn more about the death of Rebecca Zahau, who, like Marilyn Monroe, was suspected to have committed suicide while in the nude.

www.oxygen.com

''In his 2008 paper “Naked Suicide,” published in the Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law, he offered some insight into what could be behind someone’s decision to end their life while naked.

When it comes to women, Simon noted, naked suicide is considered exceptionally rare, due to the popular concept of “feminine modesty” carrying on even through death.''

''A suicide victim’s nudity could indicate a number of things about their psychological state or reasons for taking their own life, according to Simon. Some of the pychological themes present at naked suicides include the idea of rebirth or cleansing, atonement for guilt, or anger and the desire to traumatize surivors even further''.

“Knowing that one's body will be found naked and taking the trouble to remove clothing has psychological import,” Simon said. “The state of an individual's clothing, including partial undress and nakedness, can provide important clues in a psychological autopsy.”
A naked suicide can also be an expression of “vulnerability, utter despair, desolation and worthlessness,” he added.''

I don't remember this detail reported.
Maybe I forgot it.

But if their bodies were wrapped in white sheets,
then it resembles Muslim funeral custom.
White cloth is
the main item that is used for enshrouding the deceased.
The sheet of cloth should be clean and plain.

JMO

 

[dotr]

I don't remember this detail reported.
Maybe I forgot it.

But if their bodies were wrapped in white sheets,
then it resembles Muslim funeral custom.
White cloth is
the main item that is used for enshrouding the deceased.
The sheet of cloth should be clean and plain.

JMO

They were each in beds that presumably had sheets on them, From that i speculated that maybe the combination of being nude, each girl in her own bed, that they were in a small way, replicating a Muslim tradition. imo, speculation.

 

[branmuffin]

So you think they were traced? I am 50/50. They seemed to have been on to a good start, but didn't appear to find a solid support group. It is hard to tell what they were as there are too few real witnesses who knew them well, it seems.

So, your guess is as good as mine. They could have had a good reason to be afraid. Alternatively, they could have been paranoid. It is even possible that it was the case of "folie a deux", when one sister was paranoid and the other one, not at all, but shared the sister's delusions due to being together all the time. We'll never ever know. I have a feeling that had they continued to get financial help, they'd eventually would find a support group, but sadly, it had stopped.

Sometimes I think, what do I even know? One of the best things in any religious community is charity. In Islam it is especially Sadaqah which is non-obligatory and not tied to religion per se. The Big Three, in general, emphasize charity, and maybe the girls expected that someone would notice that they needed help? Our Western world is somewhat different in that you need to proactively tell people that you are in need, and then, of course, help will come. So maybe, this cultural difference played a role? The girls were too shy to ask for help but expected that someone would have noticed, as back home, people were more attentive in that regard?

What do people think?

Their situation changed when the money from SA was cut off. We don't know what prompted that. It could be the individual who was sending them money did it secretly but then the family found out and ordered them to stop the payments. They may have asked for details as to where the money was being sent, etc which started the whole downward spiral for the two sisters.

Not only were they not working regular hours which impacted their income but going through a bureaucratic process like the one they needed was probably time consuming. Plus without extra cash for gas and rent they probably weren't able to keep some appointments.

While it's not unusual for elderly couples who don't want to be separated from each other when one requires assisted living arrangements or a terminal illness to have a suicide pact it is very unusual for young people to do that. Once her family knew what country they were in they probably sent people to watch their movements which heightened their anxiety.

Unlike Riley Strain, an individual that we got a front row seat of the videos that showed the progression of his evening, from getting kicked out of a couple of bars, running randomly through a city he didn't know and falling hard, eventually ending up in the river like hundreds of young men everywhere, these girls made hard choices, choices they knew would but them at risk, but followed their plan to fruition. They don't strike me as a couple who would just throw in the towel.

 

[seasideForest]

I hadn't been following this thread much, but imho the country these two women came from doesn't have the best track record. Look what happened to Khashoggi! That doesn't prove that there was anything nefarious in this case, but raises questions in my mind.

Please also check the thread for Lolita, another Saudi Arabian woman who disappeared from Australia Australia - Lolita, early 30s, Saudi asylum seeker, child bride, disappeared May 2023 from Melbourne

Sometimes it's good to take a second or third look at conclusions.

MOO JMO

 

[acehard]

Family stopped sending money in Feb. They didn't pay rent on March 1st, April 1st and May 1st. They died sometime in the first week of May. May 13th was the court hearing for eviction. It's possible they were paranoid and 'living in fear' because of the financial strain. This didn't suddenly happen.

There were some sources that reported they were found fully clothed, so I'm not sure what the reality is. This was all discussed previously in this same thread.

 

[Dotta]

There were some sources that reported they were found fully clothed, so I'm not sure what the reality is. This was all discussed previously in this same thread.

I agree.

This info of being found naked took me completely by surprise!

As if everything suddenly took a right-about turn.

JMO

 

[Witness 28]

So you think they were traced? I am 50/50. They seemed to have been on to a good start, but didn't appear to find a solid support group. It is hard to tell what they were as there are too few real witnesses who knew them well, it seems.

So, your guess is as good as mine. They could have had a good reason to be afraid. Alternatively, they could have been paranoid. It is even possible that it was the case of "folie a deux", when one sister was paranoid and the other one, not at all, but shared the sister's delusions due to being together all the time. We'll never ever know. I have a feeling that had they continued to get financial help, they'd eventually would find a support group, but sadly, it had stopped.

Sometimes I think, what do I even know? One of the best things in any religious community is charity. In Islam it is especially Sadaqah which is non-obligatory and not tied to religion per se. The Big Three, in general, emphasize charity, and maybe the girls expected that someone would notice that they needed help? Our Western world is somewhat different in that you need to proactively tell people that you are in need, and then, of course, help will come. So maybe, this cultural difference played a role? The girls were too shy to ask for help but expected that someone would have noticed, as back home, people were more attentive in that regard?
Seehttps://www.cbs19news.com/saudi-woman-may-have-been-abducted-from-australia-lawyer/article_4870adf3-29c6-5c80-b2b5-64226de125f9.html
What do people think?

Lawyer stated her client was kidnapped and taken back to Saudi Arabia, allegations concern Saudi Arabian embassy.

Saudi woman may have been abducted from Australia: lawyer

A Saudi Arabian woman appears to have been abducted from Australia and flown to the Gulf state, her lawyer has told AFP, saying she fears her client is in detention.

www.cbs19news.com

 

[Charlot123]

Family stopped sending money in Feb. They didn't pay rent on March 1st, April 1st and May 1st. They died sometime in the first week of May. May 13th was the court hearing for eviction. It's possible they were paranoid and 'living in fear' because of the financial strain. This didn't suddenly happen.

There were some sources that reported they were found fully clothed, so I'm not sure what the reality is. This was all discussed previously in this same thread.

Out of curiosity, I Googled Ramadan in 2022.

Here

https://www.islamic-relief.org.uk/resources/islamic-calendar/2022-calendar/

It started on April 2, 2022 and ended on May 2, 2022 (Eid).

Could this have been of any relevance?

To me, it is not implausible that the girls, being in the state of major life transition and uprooted, could have felt confused about everything, their religion, their sexuality, life in general. Such confusion is normal in kids growing in conservative religious homes here in the US when they reach teenage years. Puberty is an overwhelming age, when suddenly all these questions are asked at once, and confusion often ensues. For many, things get naturally sorted out, slowly, when they move to college.

Now imagine girls from Saudi Arabia, growing in an ultra-conservative, male-dominant community and moving across the world. Were they really gay, or was it the response to externally imposed restricted access to the opposite sex? We shall never know. I assume, they may have not known, either. Same with religion. They didn’t want to live with the constraints imposed by their original religion. This, however, does not automatically make every person an atheist. Say, they didn’t want to attend the mosque but still felt some “transcendence”. This is when people turn to “the next closest” religion and so they started to attend the church. However, in such times, people can easily vacillate between Christianity and Islam, and perhaps they were in the state of certain religious fluidity.

But mostly, I view them as isolated, shy, and as I can see, very slowly approaching the new world. I also think that they were different, one, more emotion-driven, the other, more logical and systematic. With time, their lives could have diverged. But they just started their new path, and then, asylum process, sudden lack of finances, and probably, the need to save on food. One misfortune after another. Could they have felt that they’ve angered the fate, and turned back to old traditions? Very possible. (Even more likely, they could have observed Ramadan the year before, so nothing changed, but I don’t know if people like the former BF would be privy to this information).

So I wouldn’t be surprised if they decided to observe the Ramadan and, with previous emotional stress and malnutrition, slowly declined? That could explain food left outside and the crosses taken off for that months, and maybe, some other unexplained things.

It would be interesting to know some details of what scared the maintenance man who went to their apartment. Was it their behavior, some artifacts that he didn’t understand or just the heavy emotional atmosphere?

Just throwing some thoughts in there. I am not sure that external force was needed in their case. Cutting off their finances could have been enough, and the rest was a sequence of unfortunate events.

The length of them staying in the apartment could have indicated starvation. With loss of fat, the bodies mummify and can stay inside for long time without anyone knowing. The pathologists could have some ideas about it.

All JMO.

 

[Charlot123]

The first part of their stay in Australia seemed normal:

- mother visited,
-they studied, worked (landlord's report),
-had social life (sister had a boyfriend).

Then something changed:

-AVO against boyfriend (red flag),
-change of address,
-incident with "keying" of their car,
-strange timid behaviour,
-wellness checks,
-constant trips to petrol station,
-buying petrol only at night,
-complaining about food tampering,
-did they study or work still?
(their ABN were active).

And finally, suspicious death of both women.

MOO

Trying to consider all potential variations and factors. I do think that their investment in energy drinks could have played indirect role. Energy drinks are rich in caffeine and taurine, both great substances for the brain but both appetite suppressants. What happens if you reduce your intake of essential amino acids and vitamins? A thing so simple as being low in B12 vitamin can cause pernicious anemia and may result in paranoia and psychosis (see Mary Todd Lincoln’s case). There might have been some individual traits predisposing people to it. Also, what could have caused complaints on food being tampered with if it wasn’t? One thing that comes to mind is olfactory nerve problems, a common thing during COVID, but in some people it could have caused parosmias. (Things smelling and consequently, tasting very different). This would be my first thought, that things could have changed as the result of COVID or after it. Another reason, some inherent problems that manifested around this age. I am not sure that the sisters were killed. The whole situation leaves a very different flavor, but i can’t put a finger on it. Unless people who knew them when they just came in, contribute, it will probably remain a mystery. But it looks more like a situation when the sister were underusing or overusing something without knowing the consequences, and I don’t mean, energy drinks.

 

[Dotta]

Trying to consider all potential variations and factors. I do think that their investment in energy drinks could have played indirect role. Energy drinks are rich in caffeine and taurine, both great substances for the brain but both appetite suppressants. What happens if you reduce your intake of essential amino acids and vitamins? A thing so simple as being low in B12 vitamin can cause pernicious anemia and may result in paranoia and psychosis (see Mary Todd Lincoln’s case). There might have been some individual traits predisposing people to it. Also, what could have caused complaints on food being tampered with if it wasn’t? One thing that comes to mind is olfactory nerve problems, a common thing during COVID, but in some people it could have caused parosmias. (Things smelling and consequently, tasting very different). This would be my first thought, that things could have changed as the result of COVID or after it. Another reason, some inherent problems that manifested around this age. I am not sure that the sisters were killed. The whole situation leaves a very different flavor, but i can’t put a finger on it. Unless people who knew them when they just came in, contribute, it will probably remain a mystery. But it looks more like a situation when the sister were underusing or overusing something without knowing the consequences, and I don’t mean, energy drinks.

Besides
Managing a budget is not easy.
Or living withing one's financial limits.

They were not able to pay their rent by themselves.
And what about a car?
Wasn't it an expensive BMW?

The burden of living solely by their own resources might have proven too much.

It is a pity they decided to move places.
Formerly they stayed with a nice Lebanese (?) family.

JMO

 

[Marg944]

Their Inquest isn’t listed for this week, I just checked the Coroners Court site.

 

[Witness 28]

Out of curiosity, I Googled Ramadan in 2022.

Here

https://www.islamic-relief.org.uk/resources/islamic-calendar/2022-calendar/

It started on April 2, 2022 and ended on May 2, 2022 (Eid).

Could this have been of any relevance?

To me, it is not implausible that the girls, being in the state of major life transition and uprooted, could have felt confused about everything, their religion, their sexuality, life in general. Such confusion is normal in kids growing in conservative religious homes here in the US when they reach teenage years. Puberty is an overwhelming age, when suddenly all these questions are asked at once, and confusion often ensues. For many, things get naturally sorted out, slowly, when they move to college.

Now imagine girls from Saudi Arabia, growing in an ultra-conservative, male-dominant community and moving across the world. Were they really gay, or was it the response to externally imposed restricted access to the opposite sex? We shall never know. I assume, they may have not known, either. Same with religion. They didn’t want to live with the constraints imposed by their original religion. This, however, does not automatically make every person an atheist. Say, they didn’t want to attend the mosque but still felt some “transcendence”. This is when people turn to “the next closest” religion and so they started to attend the church. However, in such times, people can easily vacillate between Christianity and Islam, and perhaps they were in the state of certain religious fluidity.

But mostly, I view them as isolated, shy, and as I can see, very slowly approaching the new world. I also think that they were different, one, more emotion-driven, the other, more logical and systematic. With time, their lives could have diverged. But they just started their new path, and then, asylum process, sudden lack of finances, and probably, the need to save on food. One misfortune after another. Could they have felt that they’ve angered the fate, and turned back to old traditions? Very possible. (Even more likely, they could have observed Ramadan the year before, so nothing changed, but I don’t know if people like the former BF would be privy to this information).

So I wouldn’t be surprised if they decided to observe the Ramadan and, with previous emotional stress and malnutrition, slowly declined? That could explain food left outside and the crosses taken off for that months, and maybe, some other unexplained things.

It would be interesting to know some details of what scared the maintenance man who went to their apartment. Was it their behavior, some artifacts that he didn’t understand or just the heavy emotional atmosphere?

Just throwing some thoughts in there. I am not sure that external force was needed in their case. Cutting off their finances could have been enough, and the rest was a sequence of unfortunate events.

The length of them staying in the apartment could have indicated starvation. With loss of fat, the bodies mummify and can stay inside for long time without anyone knowing. The pathologists could have some ideas about it.

All JMO.

The police are keeping this case very close ,and not telling anyone about this case ,one thing if you have a fear of someone trying to kill you, you change your whole aspect of life and the way you go about it, you don't eat you don't go out and so obviously the two sisters did have a fear there life was in danger, I know this first hand.

JMO

 

[Witness 28]

The police are keeping this case very close ,and not telling anyone about this case ,one thing if you have a fear of someone trying to kill you, you change your whole aspect of life and the way you go about it, you don't eat you don't go out and so obviously the two sisters did have a fear there life was in danger, I know this first hand.

JMO

I should clarify, because I met Lynnette Dawson on the 8th of January 1982 when she was supposed to be at home, with Chris Dawson, because what I knew, many people tried to kill me
Including a senior detective who was close friends with Chris and Paul Dawson at the time.