Australia - Warriena Wright, 26, dies in balcony fall, Surfers Paradise, Aug 2014 #3

[they'll get you]

Does this help, Amee?

Tostee is out of control! Thank God he's in gaol. I predict no bail.


The documents, filed by prosecutors in Brisbane Supreme Court to oppose the 28-year-old's bid for bail this week, also allege he repeatedly told a police officer to '*advertiser censored** off' and called him a 'small man' during an incident on January 27 at a Surfers Paradise convenience store.

The bodybuilder and carpet layer was also charged with high-range drink driving in July this year, the documents filed on Monday claim. Eleven days before Warriena Wright (pictured) fell to her death from Gable Tostee's Surfers Paradise balcony, Mr Tostee was arrested for high range drink driving on the Gold Coast, documents filed with his bail application in the Brisbane Supreme Court allege.

Gable Tostee's criminal history includes four outstanding charges, according to documents filed by both prosecutors and his own defence during his bail application on a murder charge. Tostee was 'heavily intoxicated' and 'causing alarm' on the Gold Coast between 2am and 3am on January 27, prosecutors say in the court documents

His criminal history, which includes four outstanding charges for which he was on bail, are part of a legal brief tendered in the court before Justice Debra Mullins during his bail application on a murder charge.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz3DNfnLYCM

 

[they'll get you]

I wonder if they are going to try to lower the profile of the case by keeping the next step under wraps. There seems to be no sub judice, so far, with this case. So I'm thinking they have to do something to pull back on the reins a bit. Get things a little more under control.

Pull back on the reins because of the Baden-clay attendance and interest?
Just a thought.

 

[MsAnais]

PS I should add that I think before the next proceeding, each party may well decide to "deliver" to each other, a copy of what they intend to file in support/opposition, and only tender the actual documents to the judge on the day. There is nothing wrong with that and I think in this case they will be very mindful of allowing access to media or anyone else before the actual court appearance.
That does not mean that affidavit material won't be on public record after that (unless the judge puts in a suppression order) only that no-one will jump the gun searching it.
The bail material is only available because these matters are regarded as a civil matter. Nothing relating to the actual trial of GT is accessible - criminal court records are not, other than what is "heard" by people allowed to be in court for the proceedings.

Thanks for the legal explanations, nowvoyager. Much appreciated!

Maybe you can help me understand something else (slightly O/T from Tostee):

Regarding the GBC case: I've never understood why the public was able to purchase Allison's autopsy report and all of those transcripts of police interviews plus the phone records etc.

I'm glad that we could - it was super helpful in bringing truth to light - but I'd not known that those kinds of docs were ever made available to the public (but then, I know very little about the legal side of crime, so maybe that's normal......).

Is that, indeed, standard practice?

Thanks :seeya:

 

[Ausgirl]

Just perusing how Tostee's 'recall' of the events evolves to ever-increasing levels of blamelessness as he talks to his dad:

3.23.13am:We were both drinking and I think that she thought that it was like a joke or something and she kept like beating me up and whatever. It was cos she was really drunk and whatever and I like forced her out on the balcony and I think that she might have jumped off.'

Male: 'I didn't cause this, like I didn't push her.

Male: this is not my fault ... I don't know, like I tackled her on my floor inside the building and I never forced her over the balcony.'

Male: I swear to god I didn't push her, I just chucked her out on the balcony and locked the door because she was beating me up.'

Male: what happened was we were drinking and we got into bed together then and after that she just kept drinking and she just kept like I don't know she was just like beating me up. I was just like tackled her in the middle of my apartment and I said that it wasn't funny anymore and blah blah blah.
Then when I let her go the last thing I remember was she was on the balcony and I don't know if she jumped or what, I don't know. It wasn't my fault, it wasn't my god damn fault.

3.51am: 'Why does this s hit always happen to me. I didn't ask for this. I wasn't doing anything wrong, I just invited the girl over. The more she drank ...'

Male: Last thing that I remember was that I tried holding her down and she ran out on to my balcony.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-plus-happened-afterwards.html#ixzz3DQPgeQV8

---

Look at the minimising he's doing there. Look at all the stuff he doesn't mention, the way his apparent 'memory loss' shifts as he works up a better version. Look at how HE is the only victim, in his version of the story.

Then look at this post regarding another woman, taken from his forum (by msm):

---

"She’s small so I go to hug and lift her up and take her inside from the balcony but she totally freaks out, mumbles something about getting back to her parents and bolts out the door. Deletes me off both Tinder and FB. Maybe I acted too abruptly and snapped her out of her little lust-trance by manhandling her.”

http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au...pitality-circles/story-fnje8bkv-1227021253705

^ A watered down version of Warriena's nightmare. Once more, we see Tostee with a woman he has clearly terrified and seeks to escape him as quickly (and thoroughly) as possible.

Once more, her reaction is all her fault. Poor gormless Gable, cannot understand it. Women, eh.

And I am presently thinking, this is how he brags about his cruelty, in a way that makes him blameless for it.

Just in case, like, she cries rape, brah.

eta: sorry - point being, I am left wondering what he left out of that previous account of 'manhandling' a terrified woman on his balcony. I hope she appears in court and tells us!

 

[Kara-curious]

^ Note also how completely coherent Tostee's words are. He was not too drunk to evade police, BS his dad and make sure dad parked where the police couldn't see them... He is SO full of it. It infuriates me.

Fair point, Ausgirl, but what difference might it make if Tostee was drunk or sober?

 

[Ausgirl]

Well, Kara, as he claims to blackout regularly from alcohol, and is heard to claim he 'can't remember' parts of the evening -- quite a bit of difference, I should think.

Though he can remember things one moment, and not the next, and changes his story to make himself look better he still has quite an obvious capacity to recall details. Just not the part where.. you know.. the girl goes over the railing. Alcohol taks time to work through one's system, so I doubt (if he was actually drinking that moonshine, himself) he'd sobered up THAT much an hour after Warriena died....not that I think he was very drunk at all -- he states himself that Rrie was much more inebriated than he and he clearly has enough sobriety to keep control of her and the situation, as well as make fun of her to his recording device. He is also quite able to evade police.. etc, I posted previously. Not too drunk for that. But he's already claiming he 'can't remember' events from an hour ago... I do not think so.

I am betting he claims he can't remember a LOT of things when he gets to court. I am pre-calling BS on that.

 

[Kara-curious]

Well, Kara, as he claims to blackout regularly from alcohol, and is heard to claim he 'can't remember' parts of the evening -- quite a bit of difference, I should think.

Though he can remember things one moment, and not the next, and changes his story to make himself look better he still has quite an obvious capacity to recall details. Just not the part where.. you know.. the girl goes over the railing. Alcohol taks time to work through one's system, so I doubt (if he was actually drinking that moonshine, himself) he'd sobered up THAT much an hour after Warriena died....not that I think he was very drunk at all -- he states himself that Rrie was much more inebriated than he and he clearly has enough sobriety to keep control of her and the situation, as well as make fun of her to his recording device. He is also quite able to evade police.. etc, I posted previously. Not too drunk for that. But he's already claiming he 'can't remember' events from an hour ago... I do not think so.

I am betting he claims he can't remember a LOT of things when he gets to court. I am pre-calling BS on that.

Haha, yes, I see - thanks. I have found it interesting that in all his recordings he focused more on the variety of things that 'did not' happen.

If one witnessed a person accidentally fall off their balcony, it's easier for me to imagine that witness repeating what they saw to make sense of it, feeling incredulous. Starting with "she... she.... she..."

i.e. 'For some reason she decided to climb up but then then she slipped off' or 'One minute she was next to the railing, and the next second she climbed over it'

It seems more credible (to me) that an innocent witness would continue to repeat and explain the details of exactly what they saw happening at the time, if they were observing from a short distance (i.e. from behind a glass sliding door - wouldn't one's eyes be mesmerized/horrified by seeing a guest CLIMBING OVER their balcony railing while drunk?!). He didn't repeat any message about Warriena DID on the balcony - only tried to give his father "I'm the victim" messages about what HE did not do (did not force, push her over).

 

[nowvoyager]

Thanks for the legal explanations, nowvoyager. Much appreciated!

Maybe you can help me understand something else (slightly O/T from Tostee):

Regarding the GBC case: I've never understood why the public was able to purchase Allison's autopsy report and all of those transcripts of police interviews plus the phone records etc.

I'm glad that we could - it was super helpful in bringing truth to light - but I'd not known that those kinds of docs were ever made available to the public (but then, I know very little about the legal side of crime, so maybe that's normal......).

Is that, indeed, standard practice?

Thanks :seeya:

It doesn't really seem right, does it. A victim becomes a victim a second time in a sense.

To my knowledge this only happens through the bail application procedure. Because that is handled by a judge (or a magistrate if its a less serious crime that doesn't have to be dealt with by the Supreme Court or a District Court), the application is usually done on written material only, so there can be witness statements, but the witnesses themselves don't actually appear.

In the GBC case you may recall he made two applications for bail, and both were knocked back. I think because the case relied so heavily on circumstantial evidence, the prosecution threw everything they thought was relevant into the material they used to oppose bail. Hence they produced, as exhibits to affidavits by the police, transcripts of statements and affidavits they had from witnesses, forensic reports, phone records, the lot.

You might remember that WS set up a special thread so that the bail documents and exhibits could be shown separately - some had been read by members and then some were purchased by members.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?202113-Bail-Hearing-Documents-*No-Discussion*

To find out what documents have been filed, you need to locate the number of the matter and there is an on-line Court facility search for that

http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/information-for-lawyers/search-civil-files-ecourts

If you entered in GBC's name you can then locate the two bail applications. I don't know if these links will work, but the first one lists all the documents that were filed in the first application

http://apps.courts.qld.gov.au/esear...Location=BRISB&Court=SUPRE&Filenumber=5260/12

and then the second bail application made in December

http://apps.courts.qld.gov.au/esear...ocation=BRISB&Court=SUPRE&Filenumber=11307/12

from there, you can order up the file (unless it has been subject to a suppression order) and view the documents for a fee, or order copies of them for a larger fee.

The same wouldn't apply to the actual committal or trial as those are criminal cases not civil cases. I mean in the sense that some of the evidence remains the property of the Crown.

There are cases where some of the material would be "suppressed" to protect a victim, even the identity of the alleged offender as that might lead to identification of the victim. Those are usually cases where there is some sexual element and particularly so if the victim is a child.

That suppression might amount to the court being closed so that testimony is only given in front of the judge and jury etc. Or that if the public (including media) are attending, they not report the results anywhere.

There was one awful case in Qld a year or so ago where a young girl was duped into going to a "friend"s house and tortured and indecently dealt with by the "friend's" parents. Just horrible. Even the judge cried when he sentenced them and he ordered that the case and all the evidence be sealed and never opened, so the girl would never have to re-live the ordeal through details being exposed.

In other cases, transcripts of the cases as they proceed in court are taken, and generally initially made available to each side if the case goes longer than a day, so they don't have to rely on their memories for what witnesses said etc.

It is sometimes possible to purchase the transcript, though it can be an expensive procedure.

http://www.auscript.com/justice/courts-and-tribunals/queensland-courts/

Sorry, a bit long-winded

 

[MsAnais]

RSBM

There was one awful case in Qld a year or so ago where a young girl was duped into going to a "friend"s house and tortured and indecently dealt with by the "friend's" parents. Just horrible. Even the judge cried when he sentenced them and he ordered that the case and all the evidence be sealed and never opened, so the girl would never have to re-live the ordeal through details being exposed.

In other cases, transcripts of the cases as they proceed in court are taken, and generally initially made available to each side if the case goes longer than a day, so they don't have to rely on their memories for what witnesses said etc.

It is sometimes possible to purchase the transcript, though it can be an expensive procedure.

http://www.auscript.com/justice/courts-and-tribunals/queensland-courts/

Sorry, a bit long-winded

Thank you for that info.

bbm.

I am really glad to hear that about the judge ordering the case sealed for the girl's wellbeing. When I began working as a psychologist it was in child protection and I'd frequently go to court to testify about the details of horrific abuse that the children had disclosed to me during therapy.

And it always worried me so much that the humiliating, mind-blowingly terrible things these poor children had to endure were on public record.

It was just such deeply personal, embarrassing material that I always dreaded testifying - but it was the only way to ensure that the children were kept safe from the perpetrators in the future.

So I'm glad to hear that judges can do that - I had no idea.

And I had a few really horrific cases where the judges looked like they were going to cry. They're not all hardened or jaded. And they really listened to the psychs in terms of the emotional impact the abuse had.

It gave me back some faith in the legal system - because if you work in child protection it is so scary how many times you see the welfare system fail these children. At least we psychologists were listened to in court, even if we weren't listened to in the office. (but don't even start me on that!!!:facepalm Let's just say social workers and psychologists in child protection don't see eye to eye.

Sorry for going O/T here - it just made me happy to know that there can be some dignity afforded these children.

 

[Amee]

OMG! :cry:

A WOMAN has died after falling from the Beachcomber building in Surfers Paradise this afternoon.

http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au...paradise-balcony/story-fnj94idh-1227060218938

 

[Whatson]

SPEECHLESS :facepalm:

OMG! :cry:

A WOMAN has died after falling from the Beachcomber building in Surfers Paradise this afternoon.

http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au...paradise-balcony/story-fnj94idh-1227060218938

 

[Whatson]

Drug lab blew up on the Gold Coast too....

http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au...cent-of-his-body/story-fnje8bkv-1227060076207

Police are investigating a possible drug lab explosion at a Robina unit this morning where a 37-year-old man suffered burns to 80 per cent of his body

 

[possumheart]

OMG! :cry:

A WOMAN has died after falling from the Beachcomber building in Surfers Paradise this afternoon.

http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au...paradise-balcony/story-fnj94idh-1227060218938

A Beachcomber style balcony : (

 

[nowvoyager]

EEK

OT I know but that's the 2nd fall I know of from that building.

OMG! :cry:

A WOMAN has died after falling from the Beachcomber building in Surfers Paradise this afternoon.

http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au...paradise-balcony/story-fnj94idh-1227060218938

 

[MsAnais]

OMG! :cry:

A WOMAN has died after falling from the Beachcomber building in Surfers Paradise this afternoon.

http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au...paradise-balcony/story-fnj94idh-1227060218938

That's so awful and sad.

I see they've put the details for Lifeline at the bottom of the article, so I'm assuming they believe it's a suicide.


If you need help call Lifeline on 13 11 14

http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au...paradise-balcony/story-fnj94idh-1227060218938

 

[possumheart]

EEK

OT I know but that's the 2nd fall I know of from that building.

http://www.news.com.au/national/man...radise-high-rise/story-e6frfkvr-1226353694922

A 29 year-old night club manager fell from the 31st storey there in 2012, and in 2007 a 19 year-old fell from the 27th storey.

 

[Mariel Van Arkle]

Look at the minimising he's doing there. Look at all the stuff he doesn't mention, the way his apparent 'memory loss' shifts as he works up a better version. Look at how HE is the only victim, in his version of the story.

Then look at this post regarding another woman, taken from his forum (by msm):

---

"She’s small so I go to hug and lift her up and take her inside from the balcony but she totally freaks out, mumbles something about getting back to her parents and bolts out the door. Deletes me off both Tinder and FB. Maybe I acted too abruptly and snapped her out of her little lust-trance by manhandling her.”

http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au...pitality-circles/story-fnje8bkv-1227021253705

^ A watered down version of Warriena's nightmare. Once more, we see Tostee with a woman he has clearly terrified and seeks to escape him as quickly (and thoroughly) as possible.

Once more, her reaction is all her fault. Poor gormless Gable, cannot understand it. Women, eh.

And I am presently thinking, this is how he brags about his cruelty, in a way that makes him blameless for it.

Just in case, like, she cries rape, brah.

eta: sorry - point being, I am left wondering what he left out of that previous account of 'manhandling' a terrified woman on his balcony. I hope she appears in court and tells us!

snipped to second half of post, hope that's ok...

I'll eat my hat if GT did not have very similar, manipulative "going over the balcony" conversations with that first girl before he "hugged and lifted her up" on the balcony. I'll also eat my hat if they weren't VERY close to the railing when he "hugged and lifted her up." PLEASE, young lady, PLEASE COME FORWARD AND TELL YOUR STORY!

 

[MsAnais]

snipped to second half of post, hope that's ok...

I'll eat my hat if GT did not have very similar, manipulative "going over the balcony" conversations with that first girl before he "hugged and lifted her up" on the balcony. I'll also eat my hat if they weren't VERY close to the railing when he "hugged and lifted her up." PLEASE, young lady, PLEASE COME FORWARD AND TELL YOUR STORY!

I suspect, Mariel, that you are in no danger of eating your hat!!!

 

[Ausgirl]

I thought I might apply a bit of statement analysis to this little bit of text, Tostee talking to his dad in the car.. I feel this is important group of words, as it here we can see a cover story evolving before our eyes. His father is the FIRST person he needs to convince of his innocence, but he hasn't had more than an hour or so to create his story, and no-one else to sound it out on.

For the sake of brevity I have colour coded the sources of the information as follows:

Mark McClish, statement analysis expert.

Peter Hyatt, statement analyst from TrueJustice.org

Ausgirl, suspicious webslooth and general know it all.

=====

Pre-Warriena Terrified Balcony Girl

"She’s small so I go to hug and lift her up and take her inside from the balcony but she totally freaks out, mumbles something about getting back to her parents and bolts out the door. Deletes me off both Tinder and FB. Maybe I acted too abruptly and snapped her out of her little lust-trance by manhandling her.”

When people use present tense language, it is an indication they are making up the story. Truthful people will rely on their memory as they tell us what happened. This will cause them to use past tense language. Since deceptive people are not searching their memory but are making up the story, present tense language may creep into their statement.



=====

Warriena

3.23.13am:We were both drinking and I think that she thought that it was like a joke or something and she kept like beating me up and whatever. It was cos she was really drunk and whatever and I like forced her out on the balcony and I think that she might have jumped off.'

Liars have a difficult and stressful task of recalling what stories they have told and by adding “perhaps” and “maybe”, they are able to later defend their inconsistency.

I think" can also mean it may not have happened. "Sort of" means it kind of happened.
When a person says he "thinks" he is telling us there is an uncertainty in his answer. There is a chance that what he thinks is not true.

....language that is noncommittal. Words or phrases such as: "kind of," "I think," "I thought," "I don't know," "about," "like" and "sort of." We cannot believe something happened unless the person tells us it happened.

The repeated use of "and whatever" implies to me an act of glossing over details he does not wish to elaborate on. To me, this points to a lie of omission.

Why did he feel impelled to point out that "we" were "both" drinking, when "we were drinking" would have done. The word "both" stands out here to me -- from the rest of the recording, we know Warriena was much more drunk than Tostee, and that he kept pouring strong moonshine for her, which she kept saying she didn't want. I think it's important to Tostee that he establishes himself as quite drunk, to later support his "I don't remember" statements.

Male: 'I didn't cause this, like I didn't push her.

Male: this is not my fault ... I don't know, like I tackled her on my floor inside the building and I never forced her over the balcony.'


Everything a person says has a meaning. There is a reason why a person mentions something or why he phrases it a certain way.

In an open statement, the subject should only report what he remembers. When a person states that he does not remember something, he is telling us that he remembers that he does not remember! This is a strong indication the subject is withholding information.

The word “never” does not mean “no.” Therefore, you cannot substitute the word “never” for the word “no” which is something deceptive people like to do.

When you are accused or suspected of having done something, the use of the word "never" is a weak denial.

Tostee is clearly leaving room for future untruths here "I don't know, like..." precedes a more direct statement, undermining it, leaving it open to later change as he sees fit. It shows a non-committal to what he's saying.

Male: I swear to god I didn't push her, I just chucked her out on the balcony and locked the door because she was beating me up.'

...deceptive people may try to convince you they are telling you the truth. They will sometimes do this by using phrases such as "I swear to God," "I swear on my mother's grave," "Honest to God," "Honestly" as well as several other phrases.


Male: what happened was we were drinking and we got into bed together then and after that she just kept drinking and she just kept like I don't know she was just like beating me up. I was just like tackled her in the middle of my apartment and I said that it wasn't funny anymore and blah blah blah.
Then when I let her go the last thing I remember was she was on the balcony and I don't know if she jumped or what, I don't know. It wasn't my fault, it wasn't my god damn fault.

3.51am: 'Why does this s hit always happen to me. I didn't ask for this. I wasn't doing anything wrong, I just invited the girl over. The more she drank ...'


Always note when an unreliable denial is coupled with a diverting accusation. It is critical for analysis. It weakens the unreliable denial even further.

Male: Last thing that I remember was that I tried holding her down and she ran out on to my balcony.

Dr. Paul Eckman teaches that testifying to memory failure is almost always deceptive.

Oho, so by the end of this Warriena "ran out" to the balcony. ORLY. When two sentences ago, and for a few before that, she was being "forced" and then "chucked", and now she got there, he wants his dad to believe, under her own steam. So that's a blatant LIE, no analysis needed.

"Last thing I remember" is another LIE, if less easy to point to. But is he seriously sayign he remembers everything BUT the moment when she went over? He is trying to make himself absent from a crime scene at which he was VERY MUCH PRESENT.

Also note how the victim blaming gets more pronounced as he talks on and on.. Also, his priority of concern is evident -- It's all just happening to HIM isn't it. :no:

====

I am sure there's a ton more to be said, and to be analysed, but yeah -- this is the dawning of all lies to come, so is of particular interest to me.

Mark McClish: http://www.statementanalysis.com/

Peter Hyatt: http://.blogspot.com.au/

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Wonderful :clap: Ausgirl. This guy has been through the system too, he know's how to manipulate LE, AND the tape recording.

He's a master manipulator.