Australia - Warriena Wright, 26, dies in balcony fall, Surfers Paradise, Aug 2014 #5

[sosocurious]

While things are quiet I have been having a read through previous threads and msn articles.

There seems to be little mention of R'rie's i phone other than in msn transcripts of recordings.

Given the phone was somewhat of a feature during the evening I have just been wondering what possible reason could Tostee present for why he had R'rie's phone in the pocket of cloths he put on after R'rie had fallen.

*The phone was already in his pocket is one explanation, I guess. But why would he have it in his pocket other than to withhold from R'rie?
* He picked it up accidently, as suggested by a poster in a previous thread. (hmmmm). But the absolute surprised when finding it in his pocket, does not explain why he called it numerous times knowing it would not be answered.

Wonder if the police have the phone?

Wonder if the phone may have been damaged if in fact it was part of the struggle. eg cracked screen. imo

 

[Celest]

BBM Not at all. If you read the witness excerpts from court documents obtained by the media, it's quite clear that what she couldn't grasp was how Rrie was possibly doing what she was doing because of the positioning of her body. She couldn't work out how her feet were dangling the way they were, because logically it wouldn't have been possible for her to have been climbing down.

This witness seems to be quite credible.

I dont agree. I agree more with Loveamystery, Ellis as a witness seems quite confused , they way she was reported in the newspaper articles. Of course what was reported may be quite different to the actual witness statement though.

It would seem logical Warriena would have to sit on the outside ledge before lowering herself down further, perhaps this is the point Ellis was seeing when she looked up? Then Warriena turned her body to scale down, and then...you know the rest.

 

[sleepinoz]

I dont agree. I agree more with Loveamystery, Ellis as a witness seems quite confused , they way she was reported in the newspaper articles. Of course what was reported may be quite different to the actual witness statement though.

It would seem logical Warriena would have to sit on the outside ledge before lowering herself down further, perhaps this is the point Ellis was seeing when she looked up? Then Warriena turned her body to scale down, and then...you know the rest.

So you don't agree that the witness statement will give more details than has been given in MSM? Seems to me that a "graphic re-enactment" would be very informative.

In an affidavit filed to the Queensland Supreme Court by Gable Tostee's lawyers during his bail application, Emily Ellis, who lived below Gable Tostee's 14th floor apartment, provides a graphic re-enactment of 26-year-old Ms Wright's fatal plunge.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz3PJ3WLrDZ

 

[Celest]

Ellis's police statement should of course give more detail and be clear, but the news article presented it in such a way to make her appear confused (to my mind anyway).

Media has reported that her statement is crucial to the police case, but it is hard to see how. All Ellis will confirm is that she saw Warriena climb down. That is not in question.

What is in question is what happened on the balcony in the minutes prior. They have to prove she was in fear of her life, and that the accused was responsible for that. To prove what was going on in the mind of someone now deceased seems a little fanciful to me. Will be interesting to see how they go about that.

 

[Ausgirl]

The confusion I see in Ellis' statements are not about what she saw, but rather about what it *meant* -- ie, "'I've said to [Ryan] "I don't, l don't know what, what is she doing? Like I don't know what she's doing". 'Cause I couldn't work out the logic of why she was the way she was."
She's pretty darn clear on every aspect of what she actually *saw* -- apart from the detail of whether Warriena was wearing shoes or stockinged feet.

I thought it would it be interesting to snip those comments of Ellis' which pertain ONLY and directly to what she *saw* and *heard*:

"I heard a girl say 'I just, I just want to go home, please let me go home'
'it's right above us
there was a lot of movement.
Ellis said she and two friends, named only as Ryan and Nick, were drawn out to the balcony by sounds from above.
'I did see a lot of her body
"I had said 'she's coming over' and then her feet are there
Her legs were there first
All I could see, cause I'm quite short ... I could see the bottom of her feet.
'the bottom of her feet, and um, her toes'.
her feet were coming towards me first, it wasn't as if she was crouching or anything .
' ... it wasn't a lowering or a gentle, cautious ...
she wasn't gripping either, she wasn't on a ledge, so um her feet were dangling.
she wasn't facing that way ... she wasn't facing that way to hold on.
her 'feet were pointing away from the building, her back was towards the building ...
Ms Wright had been 'flush against the building'.
'I couldn't see her upper body at all
'When she was coming down ... she started twisting herself.
she was gone, she'd fallen, she, there was just shock in her voice.'
“I saw her fall all the way.”

And Gabriele Collyer-Wiedner:

"crashing"
“After a little time there was a really loud bang from the unit above.
“A short time after that I heard a female person shout the words ‘no, no, no’.”
she stepped out to the balcony to see two legs dangling down.
“The person did not say anything and neither did I,”
“In a matter of seconds I saw the person fall from the balcony above mine …


source articles:
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ble-tostees-unit/story-fnihsrf2-1227051950766
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ss-saw-feet-dangling-above.html#ixzz3PaeI8gtN
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/63734755/Balcony-fall-Kiwi-Warriena-Wrights-last-moments

 

[loveamystery]

'I did see a lot of her body "I had said 'she's coming over' and then her feet are there
Her legs were there first
All I could see, cause I'm quite short ... I could see the bottom of her feet.
'the bottom of her feet, and um, her toes'.

She contradicts herself right there.

I hope LE were able to make sense of it with their re-enactment.

 

[Celest]

The confusion I see in Ellis' statements are not about what she saw, but rather about what it *meant* -- ie, "'I've said to [Ryan] "I don't, l don't know what, what is she doing? Like I don't know what she's doing". 'Cause I couldn't work out the logic of why she was the way she was."
She's pretty darn clear on every aspect of what she actually *saw* -- apart from the detail of whether Warriena was wearing shoes or stockinged feet.

I thought it would it be interesting to snip those comments of Ellis' which pertain ONLY and directly to what she *saw* and *heard*:

"I heard a girl say 'I just, I just want to go home, please let me go home'
'it's right above us
there was a lot of movement.
Ellis said she and two friends, named only as Ryan and Nick, were drawn out to the balcony by sounds from above.
'I did see a lot of her body
"I had said 'she's coming over' and then her feet are there
Her legs were there first
All I could see, cause I'm quite short ... I could see the bottom of her feet.
'the bottom of her feet, and um, her toes'.
her feet were coming towards me first, it wasn't as if she was crouching or anything .
' ... it wasn't a lowering or a gentle, cautious ...
she wasn't gripping either, she wasn't on a ledge, so um her feet were dangling.
she wasn't facing that way ... she wasn't facing that way to hold on.
her 'feet were pointing away from the building, her back was towards the building ...
Ms Wright had been 'flush against the building'.
'I couldn't see her upper body at all
'When she was coming down ... she started twisting herself.
she was gone, she'd fallen, she, there was just shock in her voice.'
“I saw her fall all the way.”

And Gabriele Collyer-Wiedner:

"crashing"
“After a little time there was a really loud bang from the unit above.
“A short time after that I heard a female person shout the words ‘no, no, no’.”
she stepped out to the balcony to see two legs dangling down.
“The person did not say anything and neither did I,”
“In a matter of seconds I saw the person fall from the balcony above mine …


source articles:
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...ble-tostees-unit/story-fnihsrf2-1227051950766
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ss-saw-feet-dangling-above.html#ixzz3PaeI8gtN
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/63734755/Balcony-fall-Kiwi-Warriena-Wrights-last-moments

I can visualise all of those quotes, with Warriena
a. climbing over the railing.
b. sitting on the ledge feet dangling, toes away from building
c. twisting to one side, then hanging on the the ledge, as she lowers herself until her toes are then pointing toward the building.
d. then she falls

This is exactly the sequnce anyone would do if they were getting down from a ledge within jumping distance of the ground. So the witness's observations make sense to me with my visualisation of that. But I still dont understand how this is crucial to the police case of proving murder?

 

[loveamystery]

Especially if she was seen climbing over the railing. Would GT be found totally responsible if that is the case?

 

[Ausgirl]

She contradicts herself right there.

I hope LE were able to make sense of it with their re-enactment.

No, I really don't think so.

It's pretty plain - to me, at any rate - that the witness *first* sees "a lot of her body", then loses sight of it as Warriena somehow descends with her legs "dangling" (as noted by the other witness) and her feet facing out - this would happen, if one is looking upward at someone with a perfectly straight body. Perspective would not permit view of the upper half.

As for Warriena "sitting on a ledge" - I suppose that will remain to be seen, via the re-enactment testimony, but I have posited previously that she was *put* over the rail, onto the ledge, prior to Tostee bolting for the balcony door, which is not at all contradicted by anything the witnesses have visibly said. So yes, I agree it's certainly possible she was on the ledge for a brief time -- perhaps leaned out to look down - allowing a glimpse of her upper body -- and then slipped -- hence, the three very frightened, inarticulate screams heard by witnesses. Hence, her peculiar, feet-outward descent, and hence her twisting to try to get a grip, failing and falling to her death.

There's other reasons for my holding to this idea for the moment. Sadly, it will be some time before we might freely discuss those.

And regarding what might have happened in the flat previously, one has to wonder why a young woman who was so very fiesty just five minutes before was suddenly cowed, then shrieking in abject terror, and also was obviously reluctant to hammer on the glass and demand to be let back in. Instead, she is peculiarly silent once she stops screaming "NO" and "Let me go home!" at the top of her lungs.

Of course, there's much else to be said for that time period, and what can be reasonably deduced from the information at hand..

 

[Celest]

No, I really don't think so.
It's pretty plain - to me, at any rate - that the witness *first* sees "a lot of her body", then loses sight of it as Warriena somehow descends with her legs "dangling" (as noted by the other witness) and her feet facing out - this would happen, if one is looking upward at someone with a perfectly straight body. Perspective would not permit view of the upper half.

As for Warriena "sitting on a ledge" - I suppose that will remain to be seen, via the re-enactment testimony, but I have posited previously that she was *put* over the rail, onto the ledge, prior to Tostee bolting for the balcony door, which is not at all contradicted by anything the witnesses have visibly said. So yes, I agree it's certainly possible she was on the ledge for a brief time -- perhaps leaned out to look down - allowing a glimpse of her upper body -- and then slipped -- hence, the three very frightened, inarticulate screams heard by witnesses. Hence, her peculiar, feet-outward descent, and hence her twisting to try to get a grip, failing and falling to her death.

There's other reasons for my holding to this idea for the moment. Sadly, it will be some time before we might freely discuss those.

And regarding what might have happened in the flat previously, one has to wonder why a young woman who was so very fiesty just five minutes before was suddenly cowed, then shrieking in abject terror, and also was obviously reluctant to hammer on the glass and demand to be let back in. Instead, she is peculiarly silent once she stops screaming "NO" and "Let me go home!" at the top of her lungs.

Of course, there's much else to be said for that time period, and what can be reasonably deduced from the information at hand..

But your putting your own sequence onto the witness statements, aren't you? The witness would alternately see Warriena's body and legs as she scales down in whatever sequence it happens?

Also if the accused put her over the rail onto the ledge, why did Warriena simply not climb back over when he rushed back in as you say?

I also find it curious that he would just put her over the rail? Its defies logic to me. IF he wanted to kill her, he would have thrown her straight off? Also in view of the noise created, and the accused's seeming sensitivity to the noise made on the balcony, it would seem strange for him to just place her on the ledge where you would think, logically she would just scream further and draw even more attention to herself, and thus his guilt (if he chose to do that?)

And how could the witness contradict your theory that the accused put her over the rail, when they couldnt even see him if he did that? The railing would be beyond the trajectory of their view?

 

[Fuskier]

having regular difficulty posting; currently no thanks button; cannot edit posts either; action taken: have logged out, cleared cookies, re-booted computer, logged in, refreshed, but it is no better. Can mods offer some assistance please?

 

[Makara]

I've been having the same problem Fuskier, so any assistance from the mods would be great.

 

[Ausgirl]

But your putting your own sequence onto the witness statements, aren't you? The witness would alternately see Warriena's body and legs as she scales down in whatever sequence it happens?

Nope, not doing that. The witness statements from Ellis are, as presented to us by the media, pretty much all over the place, sequence-wise. However, it's not too difficult to extrapolate the probable sequence, by reading carefully.

Also if the accused put her over the rail onto the ledge, why did Warriena simply not climb back over when he rushed back in as you say?

Perhaps because she was a/ legless drunk, and b/ terrified of him. That he was actually on the balcony with her for a time is not in question - not only is is this supported by police evidence, he admits to being so, himself. If that's what your "as you say" was about.

I also find it curious that he would just put her over the rail? Its defies logic to me. IF he wanted to kill her, he would have thrown her straight off? Also in view of the noise created, and the accused's seeming sensitivity to the noise made on the balcony, it would seem strange for him to just place her on the ledge where you would think, logically she would just scream further and draw even more attention to herself, and thus his guilt (if he chose to do that?)

Where have I said that I think he wanted to kill her? I mean, obviously, a swift shove would have served that purpose, if killing her was his primary intent.

I don't think he was bothered by her screaming, at that stage. In fact I tend to suspect quite the opposite.

And how could the witness contradict your theory that the accused put her over the rail, when they couldnt even see him if he did that? The railing would be beyond the trajectory of their view?

Well. That was pretty much the exact the point I was making, there.

 

[Snoods]

I dont agree. I agree more with Loveamystery, Ellis as a witness seems quite confused , they way she was reported in the newspaper articles. Of course what was reported may be quite different to the actual witness statement though.

It would seem logical Warriena would have to sit on the outside ledge before lowering herself down further, perhaps this is the point Ellis was seeing when she looked up? Then Warriena turned her body to scale down, and then...you know the rest.

Welcome Celest! :wagon:

I actually do see what you're saying in regards to the legs. But would the witness have been able to see Rrie's legs if she were sitting on the edge? But why would she be sitting on the edge if she were trying to climb over? She would be facing the other way. It doesn't make sense (at least to me anyway) that someone would try to climb over a balcony while facing away from it.

But I don't agree in regards to the witness acting confused, at least in my opinion she didn't appear confused. She seemed to be just trying to make sense of what Rrie was doing.

I'm looking forward to seeing the reenactment!

 

[Snoods]

Especially if she was seen climbing over the railing. Would GT be found totally responsible if that is the case?

Yes, he should. LE aren't claiming GT pushed her over the railing.

 

[Fuskier]

I've been having the same problem Fuskier, so any assistance from the mods would be great.

Thanks for your support Makara. Seems I can post at present as the post section is white and not blue. :tyou:

 

[FigTree]

Thanks for your support Makara. Seems I can post at present as the post section is white and not blue. :tyou:

This happened to me last week and I went in and had to change the format - First icons with Aa letters in the icon bar above the posting box.
I thought I had been timed out LOL.
Hope that helps anyone else having a few problems with the blue posting box instead of the white one.

 

[Bicept]

I'm sure if police and forensics thought there was the smallest chance that Tostee may have dangled WW over the balcony they wouldn't have conceeded that he didn't, and he probably wouldn't be on bail. <modsnip>

 

[emirates1957]

Considering Mr Tostee has an IQ of 150, his emotional IQ is a big fat zero. Let justice prevail.

 

[Celest]

Considering Mr Tostee has an IQ of 150, his emotional IQ is a big fat zero. Let justice prevail.

His intellectual IQ is lower than 150, and his emotional IQ is higher than zero, that much is certain.