Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #70

[Akai]

Didn't FFC say in her statement that she was searching the property and calling out William's name? So why didn't Grandma hear anything or see FFC searching ?!

Yes. Also:

After remaining seated 'for some time, then I didn’t hear from her, I got up and followed them down.' BBM (from today's article)

Compared with this from an interview with 2GB:

Interviewer: And what was the time between when you last him and when you realized he was missing?

FM: Ummm .. there’s a big gjassy grassy clump of grass and I thought maybe he’s hiding in that, and I raced down there and I raced back up again and I think Mum must have heard me yelling out for William because she’s standing up and I walk back around to where we were sitting and she’s standing and I just said “is he here?” and she said “why would he be here?” and I said “well, I can’t find him” and she said “what do you mean, why can’t you find him?” and I said “he’s gone”

And this

When he fell quiet and the foster mother could not find him she told her mother, “I can’t see William” and her mother replied, “Oh, the little devil”.

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/courts-law/william-tyrrells-birth-family-says-they-felt-under-suspicion-for-years/news-story/5153a7edd5222a1f8e16c5f23b7d7bad

What FM has relayed is completely inconsistent with what FGM is indicating in the walkthrough. According to FM, she went back to the patio and spoke to her mother there. According to FGM she had to wander down looking for FM.

Also I note in the quote I posted from the 2BG interview (which BTW has been in the WT threads before as that is where I found it) that FM actually says as part of her story about going back to the patio that "Mum must have heard me yelling out for William", which ties in with your point. So we also have FM claiming she was yelling and FGM indicating it was because she couldn't hear anything that she went looking.

Just.....what?

 

[T-dawg420]

Yes. Also:

After remaining seated 'for some time, then I didn’t hear from her, I got up and followed them down.' BBM (from today's article)

Compared with this from an interview with 2GB:

Interviewer: And what was the time between when you last him and when you realized he was missing?

FM: Ummm .. there’s a big gjassy grassy clump of grass and I thought maybe he’s hiding in that, and I raced down there and I raced back up again and I think Mum must have heard me yelling out for William because she’s standing up and I walk back around to where we were sitting and she’s standing and I just said “is he here?” and she said “why would he be here?” and I said “well, I can’t find him” and she said “what do you mean, why can’t you find him?” and I said “he’s gone”

And this

When he fell quiet and the foster mother could not find him she told her mother, “I can’t see William” and her mother replied, “Oh, the little devil”.

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/courts-law/william-tyrrells-birth-family-says-they-felt-under-suspicion-for-years/news-story/5153a7edd5222a1f8e16c5f23b7d7bad

What FM has relayed is completely inconsistent with what FGM is indicating in the walkthrough. According to FM, she went back to the patio and spoke to her mother there. According to FGM she had to wander down looking for FM.

Also I note in the quote I posted from the 2BG interview (which BTW has been in the WT threads before as that is where I found it) that FM actually says as part of her story about going back to the patio that "Mum must have heard me yelling out for William", which ties in with your point. So we also have FM claiming she was yelling and FGM indicating it was because she couldn't hear anything that she went looking.

Just.....what?

I am surprised that after such a traumatic event, there are seemingly quite a few inconsistencies between the agreed facts of the ones closest to this.

Can these inconsistencies be put down to the FGM’s possible ailing mental capacity? Absolutely

can these inconsistencies be put down to possible deception by those involved? Also absolutely.

The question that needs an answer is ”why are there such inconsistencies in thr agreed facts from that morning”.

 

[Akai]

Oh here's some more interesting commentary from today's article:

It was absolutely deathly quiet. Still. Nothing. I was down on the road talking with Anne Maree and then (the foster mother) came up very distraught and said "I've got to call the police".

'I think I was walking up when (the foster father) arrived and he was distraught as well.

'How he knew at that stage I’m not too sure, he’d tell you, I’m not too sure, then he started running around. Everybody was running around.'

Then a bit later in the article

How he (the foster father) knew at that stage, I’m not … she would have told him, she would have phoned him, he was just distraught.'

So she was, according to her comments, walking up and saw him arrive and believes he already knew, and it confuses her that he would have, to the point that she mentions her confusion twice and tried to come up with an explanation for it. FM is adamant in her all of her commentary that she only told him when he arrived home.

Again just.....what?

 

[Akai]

I am surprised that after such a traumatic event, there are seemingly quite a few inconsistencies between the agreed facts of the ones closest to this.

Can these inconsistencies be put down to the FGM’s possible ailing mental capacity? Absolutely

can these inconsistencies be put down to possible deception by those involved? Also absolutely.

The question that needs an answer is ”why are there such inconsistencies in thr agreed facts from that morning”.

IMO if FGM was allowed to sign the contract for sale on her house then nobody had any issues with her mental capacity. I have not seen anything to indicate she did not.

Two of my grandparents were as sharp as tacks in their 80s. My grandfather actually provided testimony in his 90s on a highly distressing matter and was deemed the most reliable person by virtue of the outcome.

FGM seems perfectly capable of recalling the dice throwing with clarity as per yesterday's article and the walkthrough video (published here multiple times in the last few days).

 

[JBowie]

For me, the problem with these two witness statements is that PS turned out to be an extremely unreliable witness, no fault of his own I assume, just perhaps a bit of early dementia or whatever.. forgetfulness.. possibly some things in his head from seeing things on the news or hearing others say things, etc.

From what I read from Overington and Jublein, PS has a strange personality. He used to visit the FGM uninvited (and unwanted) and he chased after the female postie. I get the impression that he is not straightforward to talk to -- possibly naturally evasive.

I don't believe that he had anything to do with WT's disappearance, but I also get the impression that his personality does him no favours when it comes to being considered innocent.

 

[Curiouskatz11]

Apologies if I have missed it in earlier threads, but I don’t recall where the supposed dementia of the FGM at the time of disappearance has been confirmed.

She seemed very lucid and sprightly in the walk through. Nervous, clearly. I can’t understand why her statements that day highlighting glaring inconsistencies were so readily discounted.

 

[k-mac]

IMO if FGM was allowed to sign the contract for sale on her house then nobody had any issues with her mental capacity. I have not seen anything to indicate she did not.

Two of my grandparents were as sharp as tacks in their 80s. My grandfather actually provided testimony in his 90s on a highly distressing matter and was deemed the most reliable person by virtue of the outcome.

FGM seems perfectly capable of recalling the dice throwing with clarity as per yesterday's article and the walkthrough video (published here multiple times in the last few days).

she is sharp and quick and agile.
Am suprised she is no longer with us to be honest .

A very intelligient lady IMO who was struggling with anxiety completing a narrative that just isn't true.
Thats just my perspective after watching her walk through.
Red flags that could fill a book on these people.

Think LE is close.

moo

 

[SouthAussie]

Thank you, I'm having trouble with all these descriptions.. can someone please post a map to show the areas in question, ie the tennis club at the time, in relation to where Benaroon Dr was located, in relation to where the railroad was located, in relation to which way would someone be going?, ie into Kendall? Out of Kendall via highways?

Yellow line is route to and from Benaroon Drive. Main route (from Batar Creek Rd) would be Albert Street, but I added Laurel Street (due to RC's evidence).

Tennis club circled in red. You can see the railway line right next to it.

I put a purple dot (inside the red circle) where the CCTV camera is, that I referenced in the first post. It points out toward the street, and seems to capture vehicles coming into and leaving Kendall, side view only.

Cars leaving Kendall would be on the side of the road closest to the tennis club and its CCTV.
Cars entering Kendall would be on the far side of the same road.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

 

[bearbear]

so when fgm wandered down and chatted to the neighbour ams, did ams tell her william was missing then,
because wouldnt ffc have already asked ams to help look?
wonder why fgm didnt mention this, sounds like they just chatted and ffc then appeared saying she had to call police,
where does the drive to the pony club fit in here,
was that during the time fgm noticed william and ffc were missing?
also fgm seems so sprightly and coherent, full of life, why wasnt she called to testify?

 

[SouthAussie]

so when fgm wandered down and chatted to the neighbour ams, did ams tell her william was missing then,
because ffc had asked ams to help look?
wonder why fgm didnt mention this, sounds like they just chatted and ffc then appeared saying she had to call police,
where does the drive to the pony club fit in here,
was that during the time fgm noticed william and ffc were missing?
also fgm seems so sprightly and coherent, full of life, why wasnt she called to testify?

I don't think we know who the 5 unidentified witnesses are, who testified in closed inquest court?

It is difficult to know everyone who did and did not testify when there are at least 5 people who testified in closed court, anonymously (to us).

 

[Green beans]

The foster grandmother said after breakfast, her daughter then 'went off with the children... and I think that’s when she went down there playing mummy monsters”

'When she went off... I would have done the washing up. And when I finish the dishes we’re out here on the patio.

'And this is where it all happened.'

Leading two detectives out onto the wooden verandah - the same 'patio' where William was photographed in the iconic Spider-Man image - the grandmother sits down in the same chair she is sitting on in the iconic Spider-Man image

BBM No mention of FM’s cut hand during this time?

Inside house where William Tyrrell spent his final hours

Never before seen images of the inside of the house house where William Tyrrell spent his last hours and and the bedroom he slept in before vanishing without a trace have emerged.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Megnut]

I think we have a timeline problem. Doh.

I think FGma's confusion may stem from being herself misled.

Wm sounds like a precious, busy little boy, tangled up in some hard stuff, confusing for a little guy. His mummy and daddy and now new people. And visits and adjustments and expectations and pressure and acclimations and reacclimations. Natural for him to have some behavioral issues!

Which may have been on display from sun up that day!

Observation: foster parents may have split up that night to do a one-(foster)parent per child thing or..... maybe a little marital tension, spillover?

That morning, there was a lot going on, seems like.

If FGma is to be believed, FFCG left quite early....

Then there were these occasions of thrown dice and a tug-of-war toy (as in two children both wanted it). If Wm had a foster parent he navigated toward and that foster parent wasn't there and he had a foster parent who he preferred to bite and kick (maybe his only way to voice frustration or fear) and that foster parent was suddenly unhappy about the throwing or the tugging, what if Wm intended to run free and that foster parent essentially gave chase? If Wm took the tight turn, continuing on the veranda as it increased in height above grown, he may have tried to get away, going over the rail, unaware of the height differential, and that final roar may not have been a roar at all, but a shriek... death shriek. Fatal fall.

A marriage on edge, another fostered child in the mix, jeopardy, guilt, perfectionism -- any number of reasons a person might panic and opt for a coverup over a call for help.

Based on FGma's walk-through and recollection of events, it sounds like there was a time that FGma couldn't find either Wm or the FFCG. I think that may have been when FFCG was gone, driving the car...

I think there may have been some intentional timeline confusion -- maybe tea being made twice, or a sumersault on the timing of the roar. FGma almost makes it sound like FFCG was playing the mommy monster game in the side yard, out of sight.


Consider:


If Wm had a terrible, terrible fall.... fatal... and was swept up, carried to the boot of the FGma's car, a quick-thinking, cold or panicked FFCG might've returned calmly to the veranda, situated the FGma and the other child on the deck, with tea and crayons, then said, "Wm is too quiet" and went to "check on him" and the  she might've carried on the mommy monster game as if she and Wm were playing. Out of sight of FGma, but unbeknownst within earshot of the neighbors who heard "children playing" -- laughing and roaring? Before driving off quickly...

And it could've been during her absence that FGma realized a  second expanse of quiet... so she went to look for them (Wm and FFCG) down where they'd been playing.

I think all the elements are there, in FGma's recollection. Even she seemed perplexed with where they'd gone, how and when FMCG knew Wm was missing, where FFCG was when she went looking for her...

I think Wm was missing for as long as a half hour before FGma knew he was missing.... and that's the key to everything.

JMO

 

[k-mac]

BBM No mention of FM’s cut hand during this time?

Inside house where William Tyrrell spent his final hours

Never before seen images of the inside of the house house where William Tyrrell spent his last hours and and the bedroom he slept in before vanishing without a trace have emerged.

www.dailymail.co.uk

bbm

An injury is always RED FLAG #1

 

[bearbear]

an accidental death of a child could also be covered up, not reported, if the child has signs of abuse like old bruising etc

 

[Karin1974]

I think we have a timeline problem. Doh.

I think FGma's confusion may stem from being herself misled.

Wm sounds like a precious, busy little boy, tangled up in some hard stuff, confusing for a little guy. His mummy and daddy and now new people. And visits and adjustments and expectations and pressure and acclimations and reacclimations. Natural for him to have some behavioral issues!

Which may have been on display from sun up that day!

Observation: foster parents may have split up that night to do a one-(foster)parent per child thing or..... maybe a little marital tension, spillover?

That morning, there was a lot going on, seems like.

If FGma is to be believed, FFCG left quite early....

Then there were these occasions of thrown dice and a tug-of-war toy (as in two children both wanted it). If Wm had a foster parent he navigated toward and that foster parent wasn't there and he had a foster parent who he preferred to bite and kick (maybe his only way to voice frustration or fear) and that foster parent was suddenly unhappy about the throwing or the tugging, what if Wm intended to run free and that foster parent essentially gave chase? If Wm took the tight turn, continuing on the veranda as it increased in height above grown, he may have tried to get away, going over the rail, unaware of the height differential, and that final roar may not have been a roar at all, but a shriek... death shriek. Fatal fall.

A marriage on edge, another fostered child in the mix, jeopardy, guilt, perfectionism -- any number of reasons a person might panic and opt for a coverup over a call for help.

Based on FGma's walk-through and recollection of events, it sounds like there was a time that FGma couldn't find either Wm or the FFCG. I think that may have been when FFCG was gone, driving the car...

I think there may have been some intentional timeline confusion -- maybe tea being made twice, or a sumersault on the timing of the roar. FGma almost makes it sound like FFCG was playing the mommy monster game in the side yard, out of sight.


Consider:


If Wm had a terrible, terrible fall.... fatal... and was swept up, carried to the boot of the FGma's car, a quick-thinking, cold or panicked FFCG might've returned calmly to the veranda, situated the FGma and the other child on the deck, with tea and crayons, then said, "Wm is too quiet" and went to "check on him" and the  she might've carried on the mommy monster game as if she and Wm were playing. Out of sight of FGma, but unbeknownst within earshot of the neighbors who heard "children playing" -- laughing and roaring? Before driving off quickly...

And it could've been during her absence that FGma realized a  second expanse of quiet... so she went to look for them (Wm and FFCG) down where they'd been playing.

I think all the elements are there, in FGma's recollection. Even she seemed perplexed with where they'd gone, how and when FMCG knew Wm was missing, where FFCG was when she went looking for her...

I think Wm was missing for as long as a half hour before FGma knew he was missing.... and that's the key to everything.

JMO

With all due respect, I can’t buy it. I agree, I think the timeline is fudged & maybe even deliberately but not for nefarious reasons but due to the circumstance. I don’t think we’ll ever know how long he was truly missing for which I think is really the key to all of this but I’ve personally ruled out an accident & panic by the fosters’ scenario. The media misled me on a number of occasions with this case that the only logical explanation for me, has something to do with FA, a totally independent witness came forward with a strange story of a boy being transported in a car with a friend that I feel simply cannot be easily explained away. If I really think about this logically, I think I would be shocked if it’s discovered that the FC’s had anything to do with it. In saying that, I enjoy reading about everyone’s thoughts & opinions as I find myself swaying back & forth on my own opinion at times.

 

[k-mac]

an accidental death of a child could also be covered up, not reported, if the child has signs of abuse like old bruising etc

Where does it stand if a person lashes out resulting in death but didnt intend for the violence to end in death?
Is that considered an accidental death now?
Even though to me its manslaughter....seems the accidental death gets utilized alot in court.

If you are assulting someone the risk is there to seriously harm them. Its not really an accident causing actual bodily harm that may or may not result in death.

Manslaughter should always be,the assault although unintended resulted in death.

Thinking ahead....what could play out.

moo

 

[k-mac]

With all due respect, I can’t buy it. I agree, I think the timeline is fudged & maybe even deliberately but not for nefarious reasons but due to the circumstance. I don’t think we’ll ever know how long he was truly missing for which I think is really the key to all of this but I’ve personally ruled out an accident & panic by the fosters’ scenario. The media misled me on a number of occasions with this case that the only logical explanation for me, has something to do with FA, a totally independent witness came forward with a strange story of a boy being transported in a car with a friend that I feel simply cannot be easily explained away. If I really think about this logically, I think I would be shocked if it’s discovered that the FC’s had anything to do with it. In saying that, I enjoy reading about everyone’s thoughts & opinions as I find myself swaying back & forth on my own opinion at times.

He wouldnt be the first to come along with a far fetched narrative to add himself to the story.

The pub yarn...... 2 cars flying around the corner on 2 wheels with a boy in a spiderman suit standing up in he back of the car was a doozy ....

Drunks....little country towns.......unfortunately I know them better than I wish to.

moo

 

[nightrider17]

I think the Foster Grandmother's recollection - has some parts which point to the truth and the parts that don't make sense points to a coverup.

I think that is revealed when she says - I don't know who was sleeping in which room. I don't know how MFC found out.
He had to go to a conference I was told later by my daughter.

I think the parts that don't add up in her statement are overlaps with what really happened and what was said happened.

So the quietness and missing for long periods - point to the initial event /accident and the dealing with the situation by FFC including drives. The explanation of he went around the corner and that was the last I saw of him. Point to the fact - that the incident happened and the Foster grandmother can't contribute to what happened next - because the abduction/searching didn't actually happen. So the next part of the story is not hers to retell because that's when the coverup part took place.



I am trying to say parts of her story are true and the parts that don't make sense - is because those parts didn't occur with the story that was told about abduction and searching.

 

[bearbear]

Where does it stand if a person lashes out resulting in death but didnt indeed for the violence to end in death?
Is that considered an accidental death now?
Even though to me its manslaughter....seems the accidental death gets utilized alot in court.

If you are assulting someone the risk is there to seriously harm them. Its not really an accident causing actual bodily harm that may or may not result in death.

Manslaughter should always be,the assault although unintended resulted in death.

Thinking ahead....what could play out.

moo

no, i agree, the term is used a lot and assault is assault on purpose to hurt someone,
what i meant was if william had climbed and fallen on his own and then his body discovered, that a person may not report the accidental death if the body had signs of past abuse

 

[k-mac]

no, i agree, the term is used a lot and assault is assault on purpose to hurt someone,
what i meant was if william had climbed and fallen on his own and then his body discovered, that a person may not report the accidental death if the body had signs of past abuse

yeah sorry bear
I didnt mean to hijack your train of thought. Your post is clear it just led me off on that tangent!
wondering minds you know!
where does the lines of an accident verses intent cross.