Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #70

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Akai said:
Oh here's some more interesting commentary from today's article:

It was absolutely deathly quiet. Still. Nothing. I was down on the road talking with Anne Maree and then (the foster mother) came up very distraught and said "I've got to call the police".

'I think I was walking up when (the foster father) arrived and he was distraught as well.

'How he knew at that stage I’m not too sure, he’d tell you, I’m not too sure, then he started running around. Everybody was running around.'

Then a bit later in the article

How he (the foster father) knew at that stage, I’m not … she would have told him, she would have phoned him, he was just distraught.'

So she was, according to her comments, walking up and saw him arrive and believes he already knew, and it confuses her that he would have, to the point that she mentions her confusion twice and tried to come up with an explanation for it. FM is adamant in her all of her commentary that she only told him when he arrived home.

Again just.....what?
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She may well of stopped him before the house and that's when she said is he with you..thinking he may have pic ked him up at the bottom of the rd
 
Megnut said:
I think we have a timeline problem. Doh.

I think FGma's confusion may stem from being herself misled.

Wm sounds like a precious, busy little boy, tangled up in some hard stuff, confusing for a little guy. His mummy and daddy and now new people. And visits and adjustments and expectations and pressure and acclimations and reacclimations. Natural for him to have some behavioral issues!

Which may have been on display from sun up that day!

Observation: foster parents may have split up that night to do a one-(foster)parent per child thing or..... maybe a little marital tension, spillover?

That morning, there was a lot going on, seems like.

If FGma is to be believed, FFCG left quite early....

Then there were these occasions of thrown dice and a tug-of-war toy (as in two children both wanted it). If Wm had a foster parent he navigated toward and that foster parent wasn't there and he had a foster parent who he preferred to bite and kick (maybe his only way to voice frustration or fear) and that foster parent was suddenly unhappy about the throwing or the tugging, what if Wm intended to run free and that foster parent essentially gave chase? If Wm took the tight turn, continuing on the veranda as it increased in height above grown, he may have tried to get away, going over the rail, unaware of the height differential, and that final roar may not have been a roar at all, but a shriek... death shriek. Fatal fall.

A marriage on edge, another fostered child in the mix, jeopardy, guilt, perfectionism -- any number of reasons a person might panic and opt for a coverup over a call for help.

Based on FGma's walk-through and recollection of events, it sounds like there was a time that FGma couldn't find either Wm or the FFCG. I think that may have been when FFCG was gone, driving the car...

I think there may have been some intentional timeline confusion -- maybe tea being made twice, or a sumersault on the timing of the roar. FGma almost makes it sound like FFCG was playing the mommy monster game in the side yard, out of sight.


Consider:


If Wm had a terrible, terrible fall.... fatal... and was swept up, carried to the boot of the FGma's car, a quick-thinking, cold or panicked FFCG might've returned calmly to the veranda, situated the FGma and the other child on the deck, with tea and crayons, then said, "Wm is too quiet" and went to "check on him" and the  she might've carried on the mommy monster game as if she and Wm were playing. Out of sight of FGma, but unbeknownst within earshot of the neighbors who heard "children playing" -- laughing and roaring? Before driving off quickly...

And it could've been during her absence that FGma realized a  second expanse of quiet... so she went to look for them (Wm and FFCG) down where they'd been playing.

I think all the elements are there, in FGma's recollection. Even she seemed perplexed with where they'd gone, how and when FMCG knew Wm was missing, where FFCG was when she went looking for her...

I think Wm was missing for as long as a half hour before FGma knew he was missing.... and that's the key to everything.

JMO
Click to expand...

Your theory makes a lot of sense to me. I also wonder if the FFC initially hid the body somewhere local and then moved it to another location far away when she went to the airport to pick up her family member.
 
Megnut said:
I think we have a timeline problem. Doh.

I think FGma's confusion may stem from being herself misled.

Wm sounds like a precious, busy little boy, tangled up in some hard stuff, confusing for a little guy. His mummy and daddy and now new people. And visits and adjustments and expectations and pressure and acclimations and reacclimations. Natural for him to have some behavioral issues!

Which may have been on display from sun up that day!

Observation: foster parents may have split up that night to do a one-(foster)parent per child thing or..... maybe a little marital tension, spillover?

That morning, there was a lot going on, seems like.

If FGma is to be believed, FFCG left quite early....

Then there were these occasions of thrown dice and a tug-of-war toy (as in two children both wanted it). If Wm had a foster parent he navigated toward and that foster parent wasn't there and he had a foster parent who he preferred to bite and kick (maybe his only way to voice frustration or fear) and that foster parent was suddenly unhappy about the throwing or the tugging, what if Wm intended to run free and that foster parent essentially gave chase? If Wm took the tight turn, continuing on the veranda as it increased in height above grown, he may have tried to get away, going over the rail, unaware of the height differential, and that final roar may not have been a roar at all, but a shriek... death shriek. Fatal fall.

A marriage on edge, another fostered child in the mix, jeopardy, guilt, perfectionism -- any number of reasons a person might panic and opt for a coverup over a call for help.

Based on FGma's walk-through and recollection of events, it sounds like there was a time that FGma couldn't find either Wm or the FFCG. I think that may have been when FFCG was gone, driving the car...

I think there may have been some intentional timeline confusion -- maybe tea being made twice, or a sumersault on the timing of the roar. FGma almost makes it sound like FFCG was playing the mommy monster game in the side yard, out of sight.


Consider:


If Wm had a terrible, terrible fall.... fatal... and was swept up, carried to the boot of the FGma's car, a quick-thinking, cold or panicked FFCG might've returned calmly to the veranda, situated the FGma and the other child on the deck, with tea and crayons, then said, "Wm is too quiet" and went to "check on him" and the  she might've carried on the mommy monster game as if she and Wm were playing. Out of sight of FGma, but unbeknownst within earshot of the neighbors who heard "children playing" -- laughing and roaring? Before driving off quickly...

And it could've been during her absence that FGma realized a  second expanse of quiet... so she went to look for them (Wm and FFCG) down where they'd been playing.

I think all the elements are there, in FGma's recollection. Even she seemed perplexed with where they'd gone, how and when FMCG knew Wm was missing, where FFCG was when she went looking for her...

I think Wm was missing for as long as a half hour before FGma knew he was missing.... and that's the key to everything.

JMO
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I like this scenario. It fits imo. Great thoughts
 
Karin1974 said:
I’ve personally ruled out an accident & panic by the fosters’ scenario.
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I personally don't think any scenario can be ruled out (which I interpret to mean 'to have evidence to exclude the possibility') due to the fact we don't have enough information about the case JMO. I am interested to hear what has led you to rule out an accident?
 
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k-mac said:
bbm

An injury is always RED FLAG #1
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100% agree with you. Earlier in this thread I asked whether anyone knows whether this hand injury FFC seemed to have sustained contemporaneously with William's disappearance was discussed at the inquest, but have yet to receive an answer. Was FFC questioned about this? I'd also like to know if this hand injury was photographed and examined by NSW Police at the time. I know of a couple of cases where a perpetrator has been convicted of murder and was found to have hand injuries at the time their victim disappeared. (Presumably sustained during the attack of the victim or in disposal of the body.) I assume it is good police practice to examine and photograph the people who were last to see a person before they disappeared (eg the Netflix doco on Shannan Watts showed Chris having his hands photographed when she disappeared). I'm wondering whether FFC's hand injury was thoroughly assessed at the time William disappeared or in the days following or whether perhaps this was missed due to the fact that initially it was thought he had just wandered off and the focus was on the search?
 
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SleepyJoe said:
100% agree with you. Earlier in this thread I asked whether anyone knows whether this hand injury FFC seemed to have sustained contemporaneously with William's disappearance was discussed at the inquest, but have yet to receive an answer. Was FFC questioned about this? I'd also like to know if this hand injury was photographed and examined by NSW Police at the time. I know of a couple of cases where a perpetrator has been convicted of murder and were found to have hand injuries at the time their victim disappeared. (Presumably sustained during the attack of the victim or in disposal of the body.) I assume it is good police practice to examine and photograph the people who were last to see a person before they disappeared (eg the Netflix doco on Shannan Watts showed Chris having his hands photographed when she disappeared). I'm wondering whether FFC's hand injury was thoroughly assessed at the time William disappeared or in the days following or whether perhaps this was missed due to the fact that initially it was thought he had just wandered off and the focus was on the search?
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Nothing would suprise me in what appears to have been over looked SJ.

Gerrard Baden Clay had the most infamous nowhere to hide injury...
I am shocked at how much pleasure seeing that injury Allison inflicted on him gives me.
 
k-mac said:
Nothing would suprise me in what appears to have been over looked SJ.

Gerrard Baden Clay had the most infamous nowhere to hide injury...
I am shocked at how much pleasure seeing that injury Allison inflicted on him gives me.
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I'm not sure whether it was intentional or not, but it was very clever for her to have done that - she left evidence of what happened! Good on her. That was such a heartbreaking case.
 
The injury was reportedly a graze on the palm of her hand, which IMO is consistent with breaking your fall (FM stated she fell on the driveway).

Hypothetically, if the injury was sustained during an assault/murder/accidental death/body or evidence disposal, what else is the injury consistent with?
 
SleepyJoe said:
100% agree with you. Earlier in this thread I asked whether anyone knows whether this hand injury FFC seemed to have sustained contemporaneously with William's disappearance was discussed at the inquest, but have yet to receive an answer. Was FFC questioned about this? I'd also like to know if this hand injury was photographed and examined by NSW Police at the time. I know of a couple of cases where a perpetrator has been convicted of murder and was found to have hand injuries at the time their victim disappeared. (Presumably sustained during the attack of the victim or in disposal of the body.) I assume it is good police practice to examine and photograph the people who were last to see a person before they disappeared (eg the Netflix doco on Shannan Watts showed Chris having his hands photographed when she disappeared). I'm wondering whether FFC's hand injury was thoroughly assessed at the time William disappeared or in the days following or whether perhaps this was missed due to the fact that initially it was thought he had just wandered off and the focus was on the search?
Click to expand...
Is it possible that William bit FFC very hard and she snapped? This could explain the injury to her hand and the sudden drive that was NOT mentioned early in the investigation. Maybe she flung him off the balcony in anger?
 
SleepyJoe said:
100% agree with you. Earlier in this thread I asked whether anyone knows whether this hand injury FFC seemed to have sustained contemporaneously with William's disappearance was discussed at the inquest, but have yet to receive an answer. Was FFC questioned about this? I'd also like to know if this hand injury was photographed and examined by NSW Police at the time. I know of a couple of cases where a perpetrator has been convicted of murder and were found to have hand injuries at the time their victim disappeared. (Presumably sustained during the attack of the victim or in disposal of the body.) I assume it is good police practice to examine and photograph the people who were last to see a person before they disappeared (eg the Netflix doco on Shannan Watts showed Chris having his hands photographed when she disappeared). I'm wondering whether FFC's hand injury was thoroughly assessed at the time William disappeared or in the days following or whether perhaps this was missed due to the fact that initially it was thought he had just wandered off and the focus was on the search?
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Yes. The hand scratch and it’s timing is important as IMO- I recall, FFC herself said this occurred sep 12th in the morning while she was playing with just William -not both children, in the celery tree & mummy monsters and she slipped then FD Lindsey wanted to play the game too. IMO as the only articles I can find to verify these statements have names that are currently suppressed.
 
Detective Willy said:
Is it possible that William bit FFC very hard and she snapped? This could explain the injury to her hand and the sudden drive that was NOT mentioned early in the investigation. Maybe she flung him off the balcony in anger?
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I have had the same thought about whether he bit her and she reacted angrily and it was a bite mark she was covering up with the bandage in the walkthrough. Let's say she found him climbing on the railing of the high balcony, she tried to get him down/pull him to safety and he bit her hand, she then reacted in anger pushed him off. Pure speculation of course.
 
SleepyJoe said:
I personally don't think any scenario can be ruled out (which I interpret to mean 'to have evidence to exclude the possibility') due to the fact we don't have enough information about the case JMO. I am interested to hear what has led you to rule out an accident?
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I just don’t believe there was enough time to cover up an accident, even taking into account a dodgy timeline. Then add in a couple of other people into the mix that you to have to keep quiet? Just doesn’t make any sense to me. I struggle to believe the police have any more idea now than they did back then……I hope I’m wrong. IMO
 
Awakening said:
The injury was reportedly a graze on the palm of her hand, which IMO is consistent with breaking your fall (FM stated she fell on the driveway).

Hypothetically, if the injury was sustained during an assault/murder/accidental death/body or evidence disposal, what else is the injury consistent with?
Click to expand...
She says it was a graze on her palm, but did anybody see it/ was it photographed. I don't think much of her story that morning is credible and she could have had any type of injury under that bandage. Perhaps she sustained an injury moving his body into the bush or perhaps, as I suggested above, he bit her on the hand. Or she strangled him and he was scratching at her hands? All speculation, but it could be from any number of things.
 
there is this msm photo of ffc walking in her driveway i think, which seems to show bruising around her ankles,i think we discussed it here whether it was just shadows etc, but im wondering if they were bruises and the result of alleged recent scuffles which she was charged for?
www.dailymail.co.uk

William Tyrrell's foster mother hit with fresh charge

The woman and her husband were represented in Hornsby Local Court on Tuesday regarding the allegations. The assault is alleged to have occurred at a home on Sydney 's upper north shore in 2021.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
 
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Karin1974 said:
I just don’t believe there was enough time to cover up an accident, even taking into account a dodgy timeline. Then add in a couple of other people into the mix that you to have to keep quiet? Just doesn’t make any sense to me. I struggle to believe the police have any more idea now than they did back then……I hope I’m wrong. IMO
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Thanks for your explanation :). When watching the FGM walkthrough video, it appears there was some length of time between when William left the patio with the FFC following shortly after (presumably to find him) and the FGM then deciding to try and find what was happening to them both. They (W and FFC) had been gone from the patio long enough that the FGM started wondering where they were and then got up herself from where she was sitting to start looking, walked all the way down to the road, chatted with AMS, before FFC finally appeared saying she had to call the police. I think the FGM has, for whatever reason, underestimated/ minimised the exact length of time they were gone before she went to look for them. But IMO it is possible it was long enough for something fatal to have happened.
 
SleepyJoe said:
She says it was a graze on her palm, but did anybody see it/ was it photographed. I don't think much of her story that morning is credible and she could have had any type of injury under that bandage. Perhaps she sustained an injury moving his body into the bush or perhaps, as I suggested above, he bit her on the hand. Or she strangled him and he was scratching at her hands? All speculation, but it could be from any number of things.
Click to expand...

I find it strange that you would put a bandage on your hand for a graze IMO
 
bearbear said:
this police walk through video shows how close that high balcony entrance is to where william was playing, the sound quality is terrible
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The outside of the house doesn’t look to child friendly IMO. Esp if a young child, unfamiliar with the surroundings is left alone and unsupervised for any length of time.

Not just the height of the balcony in parts, but also the gradient of the yard going down to the road. There seems to be a few obstructions, trees, star pickets and fences. I wonder how many of those were present at the time of W disappearance?

It wouldn’t be the first time a parent, foster or birth, have tried to cover up an accident of a child in their care. For many reasons, such as, fear of being in trouble, fear of attributed blame, fear of loss of status, fear of losing any other children in your care at the time. As well as sometimes People have lied so much in their lives that it comes naturally, esp to avoid consequence and responsibility imo.
 
SleepyJoe said:
Thanks for your explanation :). When watching the FGM walkthrough video, it appears there was some length of time between when William left the patio with the FFC following shortly after (presumably to find him) and the FGM then deciding to try and find what was happening to them both. They (W and FFC) had been gone from the patio long enough that the FGM started wondering where they were and then got up herself from where she was sitting to start looking, walked all the way down to the road, chatted with AMS, before FFC finally appeared saying she had to call the police. I think the FGM has, for whatever reason, underestimated/ minimised the exact length of time they were gone before she went to look for them. But IMO it is possible it was long enough for something fatal to have happened.
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Oh I’m so sorry, I probably didn’t explain myself very well, I believe there was enough time for something fatal to have happened, I just don’t believe there was enough time to cover up it up. IMO
 
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