Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #42

[frogwell]

I guess she is in her late eighties by now, maybe her written statements would suffice.

In reading what happens at an inquest, it stated that the more comprehensive a statement is the chances lessen of having to be in the witness box. I have not seen the full statement but there seemed to be many areas of detail missed from the extracts that I have seen, that might well be made clearer with her being questioned. IMO

 

[deugirtni]

If we were going to hear from her I think we would have done so in March; unless her appearance was unexpectedly postponed because of a temporary medical reason.

Agreed, I was just saying who I had hoped to hear from.

 

[JLZ]

I had a few question marks from the "Breaking Point" podcast. LH reported that it was GJ that initiated the coronial proceedings, and I scratched my head about that. It was known that unless the case was solved that it was always going to go to the coroner however it seemed to me, that was a last resort to GJ as he has said that he would exhaust every investigative avenue first before it got to that stage. As preparations were made for the coronial inquest i seem to remember GJ stating that this was still an active investigation with active leads. I was always under the impression that he was forced to prepare for the coronial inquest and at this stage, if he had his way, he would not be. Keeping that in mind, if GJ did initiate the coronial proceedings then why are the FC's so upset about that. It is a great opportunity to perhaps activate new leads for the investigation. How can they attribute the investigation into GJ as based upon something as petty as envy? How have they come by the opinion that Scott Cook lied to them about the handover? It also made me wonder about how the police have liaised with the FC's over the course of the investigation. Maybe the police should have liaised with a FaCs worker instead who in turn would communicate to FC's and BF members equally. I say that because, the burden and responsibility the FC's seem to have undertaken in advocating for WT seems askew and it is difficult due to govt. policies etc. to determine where the FC's and FaCS itself begin and end in this situation. IMO

I'm not sure what it means to initiate coronial proceedings? Is that when the file is first given to the coroner, which was years ago, or is it when the chief investigator says OK we're finished, go for it? It seemed to me from one of GJ's speeches that there was some pressure from above to get the inquest underway. Perhaps it was for him to sign off on the investigation for the coroner but it wasn't altogether a free choice.

As to the foster carers and being lied to--as I understood Episode 7, they were given contradictory information by authorities. Some of it had to be lies.

 

[frogwell]

I'm not sure what it means to initiate coronial proceedings? Is that when the file is first given to the coroner, which was years ago, or is it when the chief investigator says OK we're finished, go for it? It seemed to me from one of GJ's speeches that there was some pressure from above to get the inquest underway. Perhaps it was for him to sign off on the investigation for the coroner but it wasn't altogether a free choice.

As to the foster carers and being lied to--as I understood Episode 7, they were given contradictory information by authorities. Some of it had to be lies.

OK, I wonder who contradicted Scott Cook?

 

[JLZ]

OK, I wonder who contradicted Scott Cook?

I'm not able to listen to it again right now. I'm not sure who lied to them. Someone earlier on said there had been a complete personal handover and then no-one would speak to them and then it turned out the handover consisted of the new chief reading the file and Scott Cook exhibited indifference.

I thought FFC's letter might have worked against her, with all the important names. When I worked in a bureaucracy and clients started on the "I know the Minister!" tack, I'd sort of switch off. (Edit: she was at pains to explain that the letter was a desperate measure after many other attempts to get in contact.)

 

[Bohemian]

I'm not sure what it means to initiate coronial proceedings? Is that when the file is first given to the coroner, which was years ago, or is it when the chief investigator says OK we're finished, go for it? It seemed to me from one of GJ's speeches that there was some pressure from above to get the inquest underway. Perhaps it was for him to sign off on the investigation for the coroner but it wasn't altogether a free choice.

As to the foster carers and being lied to--as I understood Episode 7, they were given contradictory information by authorities. Some of it had to be lies.

Unfortunately I can’t open this article but I did read it recently:



It seems that the powers-that-be were eager to decide whether to send homicide cases to inquest after six months of investigation as they were ‘swamped’ (read understaffed?). It might have some bearing on why there may have been pressure on Jubes.

 

[Wexford]

I had a few question marks from the "Breaking Point" podcast. LH reported that it was GJ that initiated the coronial proceedings, and I scratched my head about that. It was known that unless the case was solved that it was always going to go to the coroner however it seemed to me, that was a last resort to GJ as he has said that he would exhaust every investigative avenue first before it got to that stage. As preparations were made for the coronial inquest i seem to remember GJ stating that this was still an active investigation with active leads. I was always under the impression that he was forced to prepare for the coronial inquest and at this stage, if he had his way, he would not be. Keeping that in mind, if GJ did initiate the coronial proceedings then why are the FC's so upset about that. It is a great opportunity to perhaps activate new leads for the investigation. How can they attribute the investigation into GJ as based upon something as petty as envy? How have they come by the opinion that Scott Cook lied to them about the handover? It also made me wonder about how the police have liaised with the FC's over the course of the investigation. Maybe the police should have liaised with a FaCs worker instead who in turn would communicate to FC's and BF members equally. I say that because, the burden and responsibility the FC's seem to have undertaken in advocating for WT seems askew and it is difficult due to govt. policies etc. to determine where the FC's and FaCS itself begin and end in this situation. IMO

I agree that it always appeared to me that Jubelin was resisting the case going to inquest for as long as possible. I was concerned when it did that it would mean that valuable resources and staff would be reduced down to a small team who would be concentrating more on preparing for an inquest than they would be able to continue investigating the missing child. This is even more so a concern now with another change of lead detective (remembering that Jubelin was not the original lead detective on the case) and also the fact that Jubelin was removed due to the allegations. All t's would be being crossed now. I wonder now if there is any active survelliance or further investigating at all. One can hardly blame those left that they may be actively concentrating on ensuring their information for the inquest is up to scratch when they come under scrutiny but it certainly gives to my mind a good reason why Jubelin resisted (or appeared to resist) an inquest for as long as possible.

 

[deugirtni]

I'm not sure if we noticed this article from a year ago. Scott Cook quoted talking about the state's cold cases.

"NSW Police Are Reopening Every Unsolved Murder From the Past 40 Years
There are 500 cases in total.
13 May 2018, 9:54pm
.....
“We want to make sure we are looking at the right cases—the solvable cases—now, so [the victims' families] are not languishing there for years while we work slowly through the list from oldest to newest,” Detective Superintendent Scott Cook, NSW Police homicide commander, told The Daily Telegraph.
“The review process will look at the best opportunities to solve the matter, and cases that could be solved now, given the right resources, will be prioritised to be reinvestigated.”
“Every case is going to get reviewed and I’m sorry to the families if their case is less solvable than others," he continued. "It’s not forgotten and it will be looked at again and again. I think most families will understand that we have to work on evidence and if the evidence isn’t there—we could spend a lifetime searching for evidence that just isn’t there.”
...."
NSW Police Are Reopening Every Unsolved Murder From the Past 40 Years

 

[JLZ]

I'm not sure if we noticed this article from a year ago. Scott Cook quoted talking about the state's cold cases.

"NSW Police Are Reopening Every Unsolved Murder From the Past 40 Years
There are 500 cases in total.
13 May 2018, 9:54pm
.....
“We want to make sure we are looking at the right cases—the solvable cases—now, so [the victims' families] are not languishing there for years while we work slowly through the list from oldest to newest,” Detective Superintendent Scott Cook, NSW Police homicide commander, told The Daily Telegraph.
“The review process will look at the best opportunities to solve the matter, and cases that could be solved now, given the right resources, will be prioritised to be reinvestigated.”
“Every case is going to get reviewed and I’m sorry to the families if their case is less solvable than others," he continued. "It’s not forgotten and it will be looked at again and again. I think most families will understand that we have to work on evidence and if the evidence isn’t there—we could spend a lifetime searching for evidence that just isn’t there.”
...."
NSW Police Are Reopening Every Unsolved Murder From the Past 40 Years

He has an unfortunate way with words. "Sorry to the families if their case is less solvable than others." It sounds almost passive aggressive and putting it back on them.

 

[JLZ]

I'm not sure if we noticed this article from a year ago. Scott Cook quoted talking about the state's cold cases.

"NSW Police Are Reopening Every Unsolved Murder From the Past 40 Years
There are 500 cases in total.
13 May 2018, 9:54pm
.....
“We want to make sure we are looking at the right cases—the solvable cases—now, so [the victims' families] are not languishing there for years while we work slowly through the list from oldest to newest,” Detective Superintendent Scott Cook, NSW Police homicide commander, told The Daily Telegraph.
“The review process will look at the best opportunities to solve the matter, and cases that could be solved now, given the right resources, will be prioritised to be reinvestigated.”
“Every case is going to get reviewed and I’m sorry to the families if their case is less solvable than others," he continued. "It’s not forgotten and it will be looked at again and again. I think most families will understand that we have to work on evidence and if the evidence isn’t there—we could spend a lifetime searching for evidence that just isn’t there.”
...."
NSW Police Are Reopening Every Unsolved Murder From the Past 40 Years

How does he know evidence isn't there unless somebody looks for it? Does he expect it to land in their laps? 'Just read the files guys and pick out one with a confession, never mind if it was by an unsupported child deranged by institutional torture and of course nobody believed him at the time. The judge will dismiss it but we can tick it off as solved.'

As to being understaffed--how efficient is it to dismiss the team who've been working on the case after six months or so in favour of the fresh eyes at cold cases? Is it a good use of staff to set an experienced officer to listen to whale music? Even if you take him off the case, even if you give him non-supervisor work, there has to be something productive he could be doing.

 

[papertrail]

I had a few question marks from the "Breaking Point" podcast. LH reported that it was GJ that initiated the coronial proceedings, and I scratched my head about that. It was known that unless the case was solved that it was always going to go to the coroner however it seemed to me, that was a last resort to GJ as he has said that he would exhaust every investigative avenue first before it got to that stage. As preparations were made for the coronial inquest i seem to remember GJ stating that this was still an active investigation with active leads. I was always under the impression that he was forced to prepare for the coronial inquest and at this stage, if he had his way, he would not be. Keeping that in mind, if GJ did initiate the coronial proceedings then why are the FC's so upset about that. It is a great opportunity to perhaps activate new leads for the investigation. How can they attribute the investigation into GJ as based upon something as petty as envy? How have they come by the opinion that Scott Cook lied to them about the handover? It also made me wonder about how the police have liaised with the FC's over the course of the investigation. Maybe the police should have liaised with a FaCs worker instead who in turn would communicate to FC's and BF members equally. I say that because, the burden and responsibility the FC's seem to have undertaken in advocating for WT seems askew and it is difficult due to govt. policies etc. to determine where the FC's and FaCS itself begin and end in this situation. IMO

The case was originally referred to the Coroner in 2015. I would say the coroner refused an inquest at that stage and requested further investigations to be undertaken.

It is possible there have been further referrals to the Coroner on a continuing basis and the in 2018 the answer was yes to an inquest. The 2018 search being part of that. Then the brief handed up.

I would say FACS or the Minister responsible would also be pushing in the background.

There are solid legal requirements and processes set down for children deckared missing under the care of the Minister/ FACS
William Tyrrell: Police refer case of NSW toddler's disappearance to Coroner's Court - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

 

[Wexford]

I'm not sure if we noticed this article from a year ago. Scott Cook quoted talking about the state's cold cases.

"NSW Police Are Reopening Every Unsolved Murder From the Past 40 Years
There are 500 cases in total.
13 May 2018, 9:54pm
.....
“We want to make sure we are looking at the right cases—the solvable cases—now, so [the victims' families] are not languishing there for years while we work slowly through the list from oldest to newest,” Detective Superintendent Scott Cook, NSW Police homicide commander, told The Daily Telegraph.
“The review process will look at the best opportunities to solve the matter, and cases that could be solved now, given the right resources, will be prioritised to be reinvestigated.”
“Every case is going to get reviewed and I’m sorry to the families if their case is less solvable than others," he continued. "It’s not forgotten and it will be looked at again and again. I think most families will understand that we have to work on evidence and if the evidence isn’t there—we could spend a lifetime searching for evidence that just isn’t there.”
...."
NSW Police Are Reopening Every Unsolved Murder From the Past 40 Years

I wonder if this will include missing presumed dead as well? I think, with all the advances in technology over that time, it could be a very interesting process. There must be a few people out there convinced they have got away with murder, and a lot of families who deserve closure.

 

[JLZ]

I wonder if this will include missing presumed dead as well? I think, with all the advances in technology over that time, it could be a very interesting process. There must be a few people out there convinced they have got away with murder, and a lot of families who deserve closure.

New cases, old cases, all the families deserve closure. Some of the old cases may be newly solvable because of technological advances--if they haven't disposed of the forensic collections, which seems to happen a lot. But with the newer cases, you've also got a criminal recently active presumably still at large and dangerous, and I think chasing him or her has to take precedence over giving anyone closure.

 

[sleepinoz]

How does he know evidence isn't there unless somebody looks for it? Does he expect it to land in their laps? 'Just read the files guys and pick out one with a confession, never mind if it was by an unsupported child deranged by institutional torture and of course nobody believed him at the time. The judge will dismiss it but we can tick it off as solved.'

As to being understaffed--how efficient is it to dismiss the team who've been working on the case after six months or so in favour of the fresh eyes at cold cases? Is it a good use of staff to set an experienced officer to listen to whale music? Even if you take him off the case, even if you give him non-supervisor work, there has to be something productive he could be doing.

He's also just passing workload to Unsolved to review every six to 12 months, does this save his department budget money?

Imagine what the Unsolved's teams workload would be like - sheesh.

 

[deugirtni]

How does he know evidence isn't there unless somebody looks for it? Does he expect it to land in their laps? 'Just read the files guys and pick out one with a confession, never mind if it was by an unsupported child deranged by institutional torture and of course nobody believed him at the time. The judge will dismiss it but we can tick it off as solved.'

As to being understaffed--how efficient is it to dismiss the team who've been working on the case after six months or so in favour of the fresh eyes at cold cases? Is it a good use of staff to set an experienced officer to listen to whale music? Even if you take him off the case, even if you give him non-supervisor work, there has to be something productive he could be doing.

There is always evidence, but... sometimes they can't find it even after looking for years.. and those cases are likely the ones that ultimately end up requiring someone to finally say something... on a deathbed, or after a divorce, or whatever.

It seems that the 'cold case team' is comprised of homicide detectives.. not always the same detectives, at least that is the impression I got. Seems crazy to put it in 'cold case' after only 6 months though?????

 

[deugirtni]

He's also just passing workload to Unsolved to review every six to 12 months, does this save his department budget money?

Imagine what the Unsolved's teams workload would be like - sheesh.

Yes... 'here ya go, 500 cases.. plus all of the outstanding cases older than 6 months'.. ??

 

[stormbird]

Would anyone have info as to this deck man and why he would be called ?? the only thing i can think of if fgm told him something ?

I don't know why Deck Man has been called to the inquest (he's named by News.com.au, 18 July 2019). Someone with the same name (GO) regularly advertised in Kendall's community newspaper as a provider of services including electrical, plumbing, carpentry, cleaning, lawn mowing, and so on. See page 10 of The Kendall Chronicle, 05 Sep 2014 (a PDF).

According to Reverse Australia Directory, the address for the landline number shown in the advertisement was residential land in Logans Crossing, last found June 2015.

I haven't seen any reason to suppose any of this is related to William's disappearance. Maybe the Coroner has questions about the house or property maintenance?

 

[deugirtni]

He has an unfortunate way with words. "Sorry to the families if their case is less solvable than others." It sounds almost passive aggressive and putting it back on them.

No bedside manner, so to speak.
Sorry IF,... BUT...
Apology/not apology.

 

[sosocurious]

Delete

 

[sosocurious]

I don't know why Deck Man has been called to the inquest (he's named by News.com.au, 18 July 2019). Someone with the same name (GO) regularly advertised in Kendall's community newspaper as a provider of services including electrical, plumbing, carpentry, cleaning, lawn mowing, and so on. See page 10 of The Kendall Chronicle, 05 Sep 2014 (a PDF).

According to Reverse Australia Directory, the address for the landline number shown in the advertisement was residential land in Logans Crossing, last found June 2015.

I haven't seen any reason to suppose any of this is related to William's disappearance. Maybe the Coroner has questions about the house or property maintenance?

He is a jack of all trades. Did he have workers?