Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall NSW, 12 Sept 2014 - # 5

[katydid23]

It's possible someone picked him up and threw him over their shoulder, or into their car, in the yard. And thus no trace left for the sniffer dogs.

 

[katydid23]

But I have to remind myself, that in the case of Sierra La Mar, a 14 yr old girl that was last seen getting ready for school in the morning, they said the same thing about the scent trail. They did not pick up anything past her yard. For a year we were certain she was nabbed by a creepy neighbor, or by a 'friend' that came by to pick her up for school.

But later we found out that she did walk to the bus stop and was kidnapped from there, and killed. :cry:

 

[Panda]

but is that msm wording or did police actually give a statement quoting beyond the yard or did they only ever say no trace?
just trying to get the truth of what police have said and msm have said

I would love to say the police confirmed - but alas. That's why I questioned the veracity of the "Essential Baby" article. As far as I'm aware, the police didn't give a statement quoting "beyond the yard". As per my previous post #428, the only concrete information quoted from Fehon was "Neither police sniffer dogs nor cadaver dogs had been able to pick up any sign of the boy, Fehon said." The problem we are now faced with is, was Fehon referring to any sign of the boy including the yard, or was he only referring to any sign of the boy in the bush. As we have been using MSM to gauge our current information on (obviously we are unable to use any other sources), we can only work with what we've got. We can make presumptions 'til the cows come home, but we don't know for sure. As a media source has quoted "beyond the yard", that's what I am personally now basing any assumptions on - unless I can find anything to the contrary.

 

[Panda]

But I have to remind myself, that in the case of Sierra La Mar, a 14 yr old girl that was last seen getting ready for school in the morning, they said the same thing about the scent trail. They did not pick up anything past her yard. For a year we were certain she was nabbed by a creepy neighbor, or by a 'friend' that came by to pick her up for school.

But later we found out that she did walk to the bus stop and was kidnapped from there, and killed. :cry:

That's interesting. I'll have to investigate further. I would have thought they would have picked up her scent, unless it was torrential rain, or there was a significant delay bringing in the sniffers.

 

[katydid23]

That's interesting. I'll have to investigate further. I would have thought they would have picked up her scent, unless it was torrential rain, or there was a significant delay bringing in the sniffers.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/20/sierra-lamar-missing-cellphone-searched_n_1367618.html

The sophomore was last seen around 6 a.m. when she left home for classes. The bus driver handling the route where she usually got picked up said he didn't see her, according to Fox News. Police dogs sniffing for her scent couldn't find it any farther from her home than the end of her driveway, Fox reported.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...anta-Clara-County-16-March-2012-**arrest**-20

 

[katydid23]

OKAY, this may seem Off Topic, but it is not really. This is the case i was thinking about. They brought s great team of experienced scent dogs Saturday morning, and she went missing on Friday. So 24 hrs later they brought in the dogs, who searched a 3 mile radius, and never picked up her scent. And later on we found out that she did walk 1/2 a mile to a bus stop, and was kidnapped there.

But the press reported that the dogs could not pick up a scent past the driveway.


So we should maybe not put all of our eggs in that basket.

http://www.sanbenitocountytoday.com/...004a098b9.html
Nor is the rain a significant factor for search-and-rescue tracking dogs who attempted to find LaMar by her scent Saturday morning, Smith added. The dogs lost Sierra’s scent at the end of her driveway, where it connects with the closest road, Paquita Espana Court. The driveway is at the end of the court, in a cul-de-sac.*
“What this could possibly mean is she may have been picked up by someone or may have even been abducted at the end of her driveway,” Smith said. He added that the dogs used in the search have a history of being “very accurate” in pinpointing precise trails and areas where their target scent might be found.*
While the rain could even “hold the scent down” or preserve it, Smith noted that time and wind can weaken the scent the dogs are tracking.*
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...r-15-Santa-Clara-County-16-March-2012-2/page2

 

[butterstick]

The problem we are now faced with is, was Fehon referring to any sign of the boy including the yard, or was he only referring to any sign of the boy in the bush.

Where does this problem put us, though? If we are suggesting the police dogs found no trace of WT at all, not even on the property, then that is to imply the police wasted everyones time with such an extended search?

<modsnip>

 

[katydid23]

Where does this problem put us, though? If we are suggesting the police dogs found no trace of WT at all, not even on the property, then that is to imply the police wasted everyones time with such an extended search?

<modsnip>.

I think it is possible that the dogs were mistaken.

 

[another.com]

I don't know anything at all about sniffer dogs so this might be a silly sounding thought, but katydid23's O/T post about the case of the teenage girl being taken from the bus stop, but sniffer dogs did not track her scent any further than the drive way,
It just made me think.
So I wondered (and maybe someone knows a lot about sniffer dogs who has better insight), can it happen that sniffer dogs will find a highly concentrated scent, so in WTs case, the scent of WT running all around the garden playing hide and seek, sitting on the balcony playing (and from what I see, three year old boys usually don't sit for long periods so IMO his scent would be on a large area of the decking and all the things he got his hands on) , but past the boundary of where WT was allowed to be playing, what if his scent was there, but it was faint, so for example, if, just as an example, WT wondered off, would he necessarily be running back and forth and leaving a heavy scent, or would he have walked in a straight line, one way, no turning back and forth like he would in a game of hiding and chasing with his sister. And then bring in all the scents of people who may have walked in that same area earlier that morning, other dogs that might have been walked there, like just general neighbourhood activity, then all the people who canvassed the area in the minutes after WT being noticed missing. Is there a chance sniffer dogs become 'over stimulated' and confuse all the extra scents and then, being on the hunt for a specific scent, return to the source where the scent is strongest, thus LE cannot determine exactly where the scent ends?

 

[Panda]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/20/sierra-lamar-missing-cellphone-searched_n_1367618.html

The sophomore was last seen around 6 a.m. when she left home for classes. The bus driver handling the route where she usually got picked up said he didn't see her, according to Fox News. Police dogs sniffing for her scent couldn't find it any farther from her home than the end of her driveway, Fox reported.



http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...anta-Clara-County-16-March-2012-**arrest**-20

Unfortunately, I haven't a clue. I noticed she was missing from 6am, but wasn't noticed missing until 6pm, which is a good 12 hours. They also quoted "no sign of foul play" - the police evidently treated it as a missing person's case. I don't know how much time elapsed by the time the sniffers were brought in, nor do I know how efficient the dog's sniffing would be after a considerable period of time, but I would think, if the dogs picked up her scent in the driveway, they would have been able to pick it up elsewhere. It may also depend on how "busy" the area they were sniffing was. It's a shame we don't have any experts who can come forward and give some insight.

 

[katydid23]

Unfortunately, I haven't a clue. I noticed she was missing from 6am, but wasn't noticed missing until 6pm, which is a good 12 hours. They also quoted "no sign of foul play" - the police evidently treated it as a missing person's case. I don't know how much time elapsed by the time the sniffers were brought in, nor do I know how efficient the dog's sniffing would be after a considerable period of time, but I would think, if the dogs picked up her scent in the driveway, they would have been able to pick it up elsewhere. It may also depend on how "busy" the area they were sniffing was. It's a shame we don't have any experts who can come forward and give some insight.

She went missing at 6 am Friday morning. The dogs were brought on Saturday morning, about 24 hours later.

It was not a busy area at all. She lived on a quiet cul-de-sac. Very few cars or people walking on her small street. So it is very surprising that the dogs could not follow her scent from the driveway to the bus stop. I only bring it up because now it gives me pause, in other cases, when we are told the same thing.

 

[loveamystery]

Sniffer dogs found no trace of the boy beyond the yard.

http://www.essentialbaby.com.au/tod...-where-is-william-tyrell-20141016-1171am.html

found it back in early threads where we discussed the dogs inside and out.

So, all we know from that is the dogs didn't find his scent away from the home. It doesn't mean they found it inside the home either.

For dogs to track William, they would have to be given something with his scent on it, like an item of clothing or favorite blanket, etc. If he had just arrived the night before, there may not have been much available to give the dogs to sample. He disappeared in his pj's. I guess they'd have the clothes he arrived in, because we know the washer was broken.

 

[deugirtni]

In looking for MSM articles where it has been stated that the dogs found no trace of WT PAST the yard, or the driveway, that 'essential baby' article is the only one I could find that said that. A good sampling is listed below. I am therefore inclined to believe that the 'essential baby' article was another case of reporter embellishment, or something other than fact, MOO:

Police have launched a special strike force to help find three-year-old missing boy William Tyrell on the fifth day of the frantic search as it's revealed even police sniffer dogs can't find a trace or scent of the toddler.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...missing-grandparents-house-FIVE-days-ago.html

Hundreds of SES, RFS and local volunteers scoured thick bushland on Tuesday and searched nearby dams and waterways for a second time, but there has been no trace of the boy.

Sniffer dogs and cadaver dogs found no scent in the yard, fuelling fears he may have been abducted.
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/missing-w...ved-alone-in-bush-police-20140916-10hy58.html

Sniffer dogs have also been involved but have not picked up any trace of William.
http://www.news.com.au/national/bre...live-in-nsw-bush/story-e6frfku9-1227061187569

Sniffer dogs have failed to pick up any scent of the three-year-old William Tyrell on the NSW mid-north coast, fuelling fears he may not have wandered away from home.

....

Neither police sniffer dogs nor cadaver dogs had been able to pick up any sign of the boy, Fehon said.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...olice-say-chances-of-survival-are-diminishing

Police Strike Force Rosann has been established as sniffer dogs fail to pick up any scent of William Tyrell, five days after he went missing on the NSW mid north coast.

....

Superintendent Paul Fehon says neither police sniffer dogs nor cadaver dogs have been able to pick up any sign of the boy, fuelling fears he may not have wandered away from home.
http://www.nbnnews.com.au/index.php...dogs-fail-to-pick-up-scent-of-william-tyrell/

POLICE confirmed sniffer dogs brought in to search around Kendall, near Port Macquarie, for William Tyrell had found no scent trail of the three-year-old.

....

Police sniffer dogs have not been able to determine any sign of the boy.
http://www.news.com.au/national/bre...s-into-fifth-day/story-e6frfku9-1227059837928

Sniffer dogs have failed to pick up any scent of little William Tyrell on the NSW mid-north coast, fuelling fears he may not have wandered away from home.

....

Neither police sniffer dogs nor cadaver dogs have been able to pick up any sign of the boy, Supt Fehon said.
http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-stories/2014/09/16/dogs-fail-to-find-william-tyrell-scent.html

Police divers were brought in to search nearby dams and waterways, while sniffer dogs also helped comb the area.

The dogs did not pick up any scent trails to suggest William wandered off.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/wi...-without-a-trace/story-fni0fiyv-1227195803646

Well spotted. Quote from the above article, my bolding: "Sniffer dogs found no trace of the boy beyond the yard." I am presuming "Essential Baby" is a media source that would be classified as reasonable. Well, that solves that problem. Unfortunately, we now can only speculate as to whether he was allegedly taken from the driveway, or from the actual road.

but is that msm wording or did police actually give a statement quoting beyond the yard or did they only ever say no trace?
just trying to get the truth of what police have said and msm have said

 

[loveamystery]

I don't know what they mean by sniffer dogs. There are several different ways dogs are trained to find people.

This link explains:
http://www.ussartf.org/dogs_search_rescue.htm

 

[Panda]

Where does this problem put us, though? If we are suggesting the police dogs found no trace of WT at all, not even on the property, then that is to imply the police wasted everyones time with such an extended search?

<modsnip>.

I don't think anyone is suggesting the police wasted everyone's time at all. They should have conducted a thorough search. We are all trying to nut it out, so to speak, looking at different perspectives and trying to eliminate the improbable as we go. I don't think anyone would criticise the police in their search efforts.

 

[deugirtni]

Unless, since it has been reported the family arrived the 'night before', he arrived already wearing his jammies?

ETA.. just thought... it is likely that he would have had a favorite blanket, pillow, stuffed animal, etc, so there is that.

So, all we know from that is the dogs didn't find his scent away from the home. It doesn't mean they found it inside the home either.

For dogs to track William, they would have to be given something with his scent on it, like an item of clothing or favorite blanket, etc. If he had just arrived the night before, there may not have been much available to give the dogs to sample. He disappeared in his pj's. I guess they'd have the clothes he arrived in, because we know the washer was broken.

 

[another.com]

He might have had a treasured Spider-Man?
http://www.9news.com.au/national/20...ing-sydney-family-holiday#Z50Puu9o6fbEvYUj.99


Watching this clip and noticing the Spider-Man left laying on the balcony, I wondered about WTs personality. I wondered of the importance of the toy to him, I wondered if it was an essential item that had to come on the visit to grandmas house, or was it a gift grandma had stashed away like my mum always used to have in case a chance came up to spoil someone, I wondered if he intended to venture very far without it.

 

[Panda]

In looking for MSM articles where it has been stated that the dogs found no trace of WT PAST the yard, or the driveway, that 'essential baby' article is the only one I could find that said that. A good sampling is listed below. I am therefore inclined to believe that the 'essential baby' article was another case of reporter embellishment, or something other than fact, MOO:

I agree that on the balance, the reporting indicates no scent of William. However, I still don't think we can't completely rule out that William's scent may have been picked up in the yard. The article could well have been embellished, but we don't know that for fact. Unless the police state that there was no scent of William anywhere on the property, I don't think we can completely rule it out.

Reference to the other case, where the sniffers were unable to pick up the missing girl's scent past the driveway, when she evidently walked to the bus stop, has complicated matters, indicating that maybe they aren't as reliable as we think.

 

[deugirtni]

I think it is unfair to say that, since obviously the detective in charge was also troubled by the dogs not finding a scent of WT at all.

In the end, when this case is solved someday, police can never be accused of not giving this case their all, even though their comrades said in their professionally trained opinions (the sniffer and cadaver dogs), that the boy's scent was not found. They took every precaution, expanded their search perimeters, and nobody will ever be able to say they didn't search hard or long enough. That in itself is surely not a waste of everyone's time. MOO

<modsnip>

Where does this problem put us, though? If we are suggesting the police dogs found no trace of WT at all, not even on the property, then that is to imply the police wasted everyones time with such an extended search?

<modsnip>.

 

[deugirtni]

Yes, except that it was that full 24 hours later, and we don't know the weather conditions/wind conditions etc., of that time period.

I think LE choose their words very carefully when making statements to the media, which obviously the detective did in this case, since many media reported his quote. MOO

I agree that on the balance, the reporting indicates no scent of William. However, I still don't think we can't completely rule out that William's scent may have been picked up in the yard. The article could well have been embellished, but we don't know that for fact. Unless the police state that there was no scent of William anywhere on the property, I don't think we can completely rule it out.

Reference to the other case, where the sniffers were unable to pick up the missing girl's scent past the driveway, when she evidently walked to the bus stop, has complicated matters, indicating that maybe they aren't as reliable as we think.