Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #55

[JLZ]

Some time this witness got out of jail the witness took FA to Blue Mountains & Mudgee to see brother.

Dr Sleuth, can I check what you're saying here--that the protected witness had been in gaol himself? Locked up, not just visiting FA?

 

[Blues Clues]

Blues Clues,

Hypothetically, say a witness was talking to an inmate on behalf of police, I think it would be strange if the Coroner made the person give testimony in front of a court room full of peers and media and the inmate watching via video link. But say it did happen, what would it mean? I don't understand what you're saying about the sequence of events.

I think FA would have been in prison serving his 16 sentence by the time he was interviewed in Nov 2019, so it wouldn't have been possible for any family or friends to call him (see below). I think it's likely that FA called the witness, not the other way around.

From The Families Handbook: A Guide for Families and Friends of Prisoners (a PDF)

Phone calls p.64
"You won't be able to phone your family member in a correctional centre.
Each prisoner receives a phone card with six phone numbers that can be programmed for family and friends.
They can also allocate three numbers for services they may wish to phone. They must have money in their account to make phone calls. Phone calls generally last six minutes." ...
"Prisoners may have to queue to use one of a limited number of phones, so they may not be able to contact you exactly when you are expecting a call."

BBM
I think it would be strange if the Coroner made the person give testimony in front of a court room full of peers and media and the inmate watching via video link.

I completely agree Stormbird. That's why I'm trying to get a handle on exactly what/who this witness is being protected from. I thought it might be helpful to know where in the timeline the investigators got involved with the protected witness... I still haven't come to any conclusions about it, but as drsleuth said the protected witness might be working with police.

I think it's likely that FA called the witness, not the other way around

Again I agree.
Do you have any thoughts on why this witness might be protected? Other than being protected from indemnity I'm not coming up with anything.

 

[JLZ]

Do you have any thoughts on why this witness might be protected? Other than being protected from indemnity I'm not coming up with anything.

I'm butting in, I hope that's OK . . . .

We've heard two accounts of a Tamworth trip involving FA. If they're the same trip, it seems a child may have been present. Perhaps identifying the witness would also identify the child, and that's considered undesirable. Another thought is that some of the protected witness's evidence could be compromising depending on his position; for example, that he was regularly driven about by someone he knew didn't have a license. Not so much if the witness himself is an ex-con.

 

[Blues Clues]

I'm butting in, I hope that's OK . . . .

We've heard two accounts of a Tamworth trip involving FA. If they're the same trip, it seems a child may have been present. Perhaps identifying the witness would also identify the child, and that's considered undesirable. Another thought is that some of the protected witness's evidence could be compromising depending on his position; for example, that he was regularly driven about by someone he knew didn't have a license. Not so much if the witness himself is an ex-con.

Good points JLZ!

Please do jump in, I'm keen to hear everyone's thoughts.

 

[stormbird]

BBM
I think it would be strange if the Coroner made the person give testimony in front of a court room full of peers and media and the inmate watching via video link.

I completely agree Stormbird. That's why I'm trying to get a handle on exactly what/who this witness is being protected from. I thought it might be helpful to know where in the timeline the investigators got involved with the protected witness... I still haven't come to any conclusions about it, but as drsleuth said the protected witness might be working with police.

I think it's likely that FA called the witness, not the other way around

Again I agree.
Do you have any thoughts on why this witness might be protected? Other than being protected from indemnity I'm not coming up with anything.

Blue Clues,

I couldn't find anything explaining what a "protected" witness in an inquest would be, so my only thought is that maybe the protected witness is someone associated with one of FA's previous cases (any offence involving children or sexual assault)? I don't know whether protection in one case carries over to other things, though, and it would be odd if FA chooses to go on talking to someone who hypothetically might have testified against him previously.

Your idea about protection from indemnity makes more sense, IMO.

 

[drsleuth]

Dr Sleuth, can I check what you're saying here--that the protected witness had been in gaol himself? Locked up, not just visiting FA?

Sorry JLZ, poorly worded by me!

No the protected witness has not been in jail that I know of.

Seems like they had regular contact by phone whilst FA in jail.

After FA got out of jail on bail ( & moved to Misty Way) , the witness said he took him on a trip to Blue mountains & Mudgee

 

[JLZ]

An occasion in 2013/2014 detectives talking to FA about an approach to a child at Johns River , he replied yes. He said " I went out to take out a birthday card & take him to lunch" Were asking him about anyone with a white ute. FA said he didn't know anyone & witness though odd as he had a white ute.

Can I clarify something else please? I was a bit cloudy about who is meant by "he" on each occasion. I think you are saying that the witness went "out" to take FA a birthday card and to take FA to lunch. When he reached FA he found detectives talking to FA. The detectives asked FA if he knew anyone with a white ute. FA said that he didn't, which the witness thought strange because the witness had a white ute.

I've since heard a different version (call it rumour) of this episode in which it was FA who arrived and found detectives talking to the witness. The witness had said he didn't know anyone with a white ute. Then FA drove up in a white ute.

In particular, in your recollection, was it FA or the witness who said he didn't know anyone with a white ute? It seems to me it must have been FA because a white ute was one of the witness's own vehicles--it would have been futile as well as pointless for the witness to deny it.

 

[JLZ]

Sorry JLZ, poorly worded by me!

No the protected witness has not been in jail that I know of.

Seems like they had regular contact by phone whilst FA in jail.

After FA got out of jail on bail ( & moved to Misty Way) , the witness said he took him on a trip to Blue mountains & Mudgee

Thank you, that's as I guessed--then I worried I was changing what I'd read to suit my theory!

 

[drsleuth]

Can I clarify something else please? I was a bit cloudy about who is meant by "he" on each occasion. I think you are saying that the witness went "out" to take FA a birthday card and to take FA to lunch. When he reached FA he found detectives talking to FA. The detectives asked FA if he knew anyone with a white ute. FA said that he didn't, which the witness thought strange because the witness had a white ute.

I've since heard a different version (call it rumour) of this episode in which it was FA who arrived and found detectives talking to the witness. The witness had said he didn't know anyone with a white ute. Then FA drove up in a white ute.

In particular, in your recollection, was it FA or the witness who said he didn't know anyone with a white ute? It seems to me it must have been FA because a white ute was one of the witness's own vehicles--it would have been futile as well as pointless for the witness to deny it.

JLZ, it not clear sometimes , in court, what is being talked about

It's a bit like a jigsaw puzzle & you have to put all the pieces together.

This is directly from my notes ( & I try to write exactly what is asked & what the witness's reply is ) I may not always get it 100% correct but I try too

Mr C - "Around 2013 0r 2014 did you have a white ute?"

Witness : " Yes"

Mr C - " Occasion in 2013/2014 in white ute find detective talking to FA about an approach to a child @ Johns River?"

Witness - " Yes, I went out to take a birthday card & take him to lunch"

Mr C -" Asking about anyone with a white Ute" "FA said didn't know anyone"

Witness ' " Thought it odd, I have a white ute"

Mr C - " First time you thought something a bit suss?"

Witness - " Didn't know if it was coming from Danny"

What do you make of that exchange??

 

[JLZ]

What do you make of that exchange??

Same as I made of another witness (?) in his relations to FA and Danny. I can believe there's two with the same attitude, but it takes an effort.

 

[SLouTh]

Same as I made of another witness (?) in his relations to FA and Danny. I can believe there's two with the same attitude, but it takes an effort.

JLZ are you referring to MP here??

 

[drsleuth]

Same as I made of another witness (?) in his relations to FA and Danny. I can believe there's two with the same attitude, but it takes an effort.

Which two JLZ?

 

[SLouTh]

Dr Sleuth, can I check what you're saying here--that the protected witness had been in gaol himself? Locked up, not just visiting FA?

I have to admit that I took it that Protected Witness had been in Jail so thanks for clearing that up......

 

[JLZ]

JLZ are you referring to MP here??

Well, I'm trying to be a little bit obscure, seeing there must be a reason for the protection and not to embarrass Dr Sleuth too much.

 

[SLouTh]

JLZ, it not clear sometimes , in court, what is being talked about

It's a bit like a jigsaw puzzle & you have to put all the pieces together.

This is directly from my notes ( & I try to write exactly what is asked & what the witness's reply is ) I may not always get it 100% correct but I try too

Mr C - "Around 2013 0r 2014 did you have a white ute?"

Witness : " Yes"

Mr C - " Occasion in 2013/2014 in white ute find detective talking to FA about an approach to a child @ Johns River?"

Witness - " Yes, I went out to take a birthday card & take him to lunch"

Mr C -" Asking about anyone with a white Ute" "FA said didn't know anyone"

Witness ' " Thought it odd, I have a white ute"

Mr C - " First time you thought something a bit suss?"

Witness - " Didn't know if it was coming from Danny"

What do you make of that exchange??

Thanks Doc ..... was FA on the screen during this Witness's evidence? and did FA ask any / many questions???

 

[drsleuth]

Well, I'm trying to be a little bit obscure, seeing there must be a reason for the protection and not to embarrass Dr Sleuth too much.

OK........

 

[drsleuth]

Thanks Doc ..... was FA on the screen during this Witness's evidence? and did FA ask any / many questions???

FA has been on screen listening to every witness.

No x examination from FA that have in my notes.

 

[SLouTh]

Well, I'm trying to be a little bit obscure, seeing there must be a reason for the protection and not to embarrass Dr Sleuth too much.

I think you may have misunderstood my question - I don't mean the Protected Witness is MP ..... I meant his open evidence about trying to help FA regarding Danny Parish and calling him a liar??? etc "how are we going to prove" etc

Even Doc has asked who you mean.... ?

I definitely don't mean to offend you, or Doc, in any way possible .. I'm just trying to work it all out ... and no other witness jumps to mind about FA and DP ..... but its easy to forget little details...

 

[SLouTh]

FA has been on screen listening to every witness.

No x examination from FA that have in my notes.

Thanks Doc ... its always curious to hear who he x examines and who he doesn't ..... in trying to work him out ...

 

[JLZ]

The reason for the Tamworth trip--did that have to do with a trailer belonging to protected witness's wife's son, not a son of FA? And was that in the wife's blue Subaru? It seems to be unclear whether it happened before or after William's disappearance, but likely after? I'm wondering whether, if FA pinched the Subaru for use in the abduction of William, he might have wanted to go along for the Tamworth trip to provide an innocent reason for his prints or DNA being in the car. I haven't seen it mentioned that that was one of the cars he regularly borrowed.