Australia Australia - William Tyrrell Disappeared While Playing in Yard - Kendall (NSW) #77

[SouthAussie]

JMO - While you keep a focus as per your post above; Many of us maintain a focus on the Hearing still currently to be finalized .... Hence my post in reply to Warshawski:

My focus is on finding William. So far, nobody has been able to find him.

I recently read a book called Vanished In Vermillion (by Lou Raguse). Two teenagers disappeared one night while out driving. Over the years there were searches, current and cold case investigations, excavations, a local man was charged (but not tried, due to a lying witness) as he had priors .... 43 years later they found the girls in their car in a nearby creek. They drove into the creek and died, seemingly due to a front tyre blowout.

Where is William? Did he get lost and has been missed in the searches?

 

[k-mac]

I believe, the bio parents of other children, who needed fostering, didn't know their name and didn't know, how they looked.
Wasn't it so, that FFC brought little W and his sister to the visits, but then she was hiding in the background somewhere? She would have known, how the bio parents looked, but not vice versa?

I may be wrong.

I forgot about her hiding in the bushes.

What a controlling <modsnip -namecalling> hiding in plain sight all along.

moo

 

[k-mac]

yes, I have stated I think they have done the right thing.
Can you guarantee that the foster child would have been taken off the foster parents after the first incident if they went straight in? The police would have known what to do. They weren't sitting back laughing. They now have protected her from the <modsnip - namecalling>

If the police didn't do the covert operation, this child would still be receiving the abuse.

Right exactly.

It has since been exposed that Rosann sort advice and influence from the child abuse team about how to do this.

Would have been pretty nice for the FP's to get a slap on the wrist misdemeanour for 1 episode for sure.

They already likely won't do time with the accumulative abuse recorded.
<modsnip>

can't have it both ways.

And I think Rosann have done a stellar job to help that girl get 100% guarantee away from these manipulative cruel people.

 

[bearbear]

so even with very limited visiting rights little william still remembered his father, how happy that must have made him feel

The grandmother said that after William was finally removed from the couple's care, the pair had infrequent visiting rights and could only see him at a public shopping centre near Ryde.

“(They) could see William for one hour every seven or eight weeks at the Macquarie Centre,” she said.

“The last time they saw him, William yelled: ‘Daddy, Daddy, Daddy’ and jumped out of the pram like a kangaroo.

“William loved his dad. There was a real bond.”

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/how-william-tyrrell-was-hidden-more-than-two-years-before-his-disappearance/news-story/bce866bd1bd09f319f5e6bfc71905df6

 

[bearbear]

The birth family spent what was a a fortune to them - $4500 - on lawyers to try and retain custody of William, but it wasn't enough.

Ensconced in the couple's comfortable home, William was encouraged to call his foster parents 'mummy and daddy' and they began to agitated against contact visits with the birth parents, which the foster mum said 'disrupted William'.

''(William was) very unsettled, particularly the time immediately following contact with (his) birth parents. The unsettled behaviour after visits would last months,' the foster mother said

At first, the birth couple saw their children three times a week, but by the time of William's disappearance, that had dwindled to one hour every 7-8 weeks.

Approved by welfare authorities, and as a precursor to the foster mother's plan to adopt William and his sister, the children were being eased out of their biological family's lives.

How poor 'bogans' were treated when rich couple 'lost' William Tyrrell

The problems that beset the William Tyrrell case go to the heart of the foster parent system. On one side, there's a wealthy, couple in a $4m home, on the other side a 'bogan' couple.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Couldbe]

JMO - With the her kicking the 11 year old girl because the FM that would teach her a lesson:

https://www.news.com.au/national/ns...s/news-story/f350c16c6ef9a952d05b859909a50b30
“Admitting to kicking the child, the foster mother said to a friend in one tape that she couldn’t believe she did it and it was a “complete reaction” to the child threatening to hurt their sibling.”


MOO - Seriously, what lesson was FM teaching the little girl by telling her that she was going to slap her across the face:

Moment Tyrrell’s foster mother kicked child caught on tape
“In one recording from May 26, played to the court on Wednesday, the woman warns the young child about “throwing” items around the house.
“That won’t be the only thing that gets thrown around,” she says.

“You only seem to listen when I threaten to get violent.”

Several weeks later in July 2021, the woman warned the child about her attitude.
“I’m going to slap you across the face,” the woman says.

She further adds: “Do you want to do that?”

“No,” the child says.


JMO - Without being educated differently, I wonder if Parents use a similar disciplining style to what they experienced from their own Parents.

.... Was FM using memories of her own upbringing to 'bring up' her fostered children, and ignoring the education she would have been given in regard to her fostered children?

 

[FromGermany1]

.... Was FM using memories of her own upbringing to 'bring up' her fostered children, and ignoring the education she would have been given in regard to her fostered children?

Yes, I think so. IMO, she certainly learned this matter-of-fact, unemotional attitude in her own childhood.

FFC spoke about her not good relationship with her own mother, although I can't understand, why she did that at all. Probably it belonged to her decorating the stories, she had to tell. The more words, the more opaque everything becomes, and it helped her well until today. IMO

 

[Warshawski]

At the NSWCC hearing, Lonergan said that they dd not inform DCJ about the January 2021 assault (wooden spoon incident) because they were monitoring the home and the children in it.

Police told William’s foster mother ‘we know where, we know how, we know why’

Detectives had a stark message for William Tyrrell’s foster mother. Questioned in a Sydney court about the conversation, they denied that they were deliberately lying.

www.smh.com.au

Monitoring involves paying close attention. It's a type of systematic observation, like the monitoring of criminals by the police. Kids who are up to something don’t like their parents’ monitoring their every move.
To monitor is to keep an eye on someone or something, often through recording devices. Monitoring, then, is the act of keeping tabs on others. Link

As you said SA, that statement from Lonergan was in relation to the wooden spoon incident.

I wonder did Investigators think at the time that was an isolated incident.

Despite the explained meaning of the word ‘monitoring’, do we think they were actually glued daily to the review of these recordings ?

I tend to think Not, simply because I doubt the police had the resources to commit someone to that daily monitoring, along with the mountain of case information that they had to revisit & re-examine - particularly if nothing of relevance to William had been heard mentioned previously.

Perhaps the review only happened occasionally & at the point all the other abusive treatment became apparent, perhaps that‘s when they stepped in .

A thought way out of left field - was L working with Investigators even then ? She would’ve been accessible through school hours

All just my thoughts ..

 

[Warshawski]

My focus is on finding William. So far, nobody has been able to find him.

I recently read a book called Vanished In Vermillion (by Lou Raguse). Two teenagers disappeared one night while out driving. Over the years there were searches, current and cold case investigations, excavations, a local man was charged (but not tried, due to a lying witness) as he had priors .... 43 years later they found the girls in their car in a nearby creek. They drove into the creek and died, seemingly due to a front tyre blowout.

Where is William? Did he get lost and has been missed in the searches?

I’ve asked myself this same question over & over again SA. . and as sad as that situation would be to accept, for me it would sit easier than him being a victim of foul play, particularly at the hands of those who were charged with his care & protection.

However, every time I go there, there’s the loud voices of the Fosters adamantly declaring that William wasn’t a wanderer.

William Tyrrell's foster father 'hysterical' when child went missing, inquest hears

Foster father looked under houses, external fences, pits, drains and sheds, ‘everything, everywhere he might have gone’, he says

www.theguardian.com

 

[Warshawski]

Right exactly.

It has since been exposed that Rosann sort advice and influence from the child abuse team about how to do this.

Would have been pretty nice for the FP's to get a slap on the wrist misdemeanour for 1 episode for sure.

They already likely won't do time with the accumulative abuse recorded.
<modsnip>

can't have it both ways.

And I think Rosann have done a stellar job to help that girl get 100% guarantee away from these manipulative cruel people.

Hi k-mac, the bolded above by me - i haven’t seen that information come out. If that’s the case, it’s a big point

 

[Warshawski]

We are only going by Bio Family words that happened.
Knowing by experience my Foster Carers dropped me off when visiting my bio family, I was walked with Officer to met Bio family in a Public Place. where ever I was to met them.
Bio and fosters do not cross paths it is the rules , Fosters leave the area, the Welfare Officer remains close by. If this happened , it would been stated straight away as a report Welfare Officer would reprimand the Foster Carers.
Bio Family visit had been stated always been in a public place, there be witnesses there.
They were always under observation during visits.
Bio words, IMO the Bio family has a history of Fraud damages to Propety Stealing etc etc
IMO I would take that Bio Family statement with a grain of salt.
The Bio Mum has shown in the past yelling and shrieking behaviour in the past, Shop Assitant Christmas Eve few year ago created a scene over a minor detail in Service. Verbal abuse spitting on Police Officers, verbally abusing other people in Public ,one was most recently at a Bus Stop, all these are in Court Records and Media.
She has always revecived a good behaviour bonds.
I believe Foster Parents will get Jail time. Which will make a lot of people happy.
IMO as My Grandparents would say Two Saving,
1) People accuse other people creating a scene, do it themselves.
2) People would make scenes in Public what it it like behind the family Home Door

Agree Shadow, there’s always 2 sides to every story; and the voice we need to hear in this situation is William’s.

In my experience, there’s also variables in situations, Fostering included.

I can speak to a situation where the child spent some holiday periods with a Bio-Aunt; another who had unsupervised time with her Dad (Eventually re-familied)

As I’ve mentioned prior, there are ’rules’, often there to be broken if deemed fit - and usually acceptably so.

Where this approach can (and has) come unstuck is when decisions are ‘unsound’ - often unintentionally the result of workload / time constraints/ stress levels / inexperience etc of case workers.

I find our humanities approach so very skewed & sad.

 

[Sillybilly]

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[SouthAussie]

Agree Shadow, there’s always 2 sides to every story; and the voice we need to hear in this situation is William’s.

In my experience, there’s also variables in situations, Fostering included.

I can speak to a situation where the child spent some holiday periods with a Bio-Aunt; another who had unsupervised time with her Dad (Eventually re-familied)

As I’ve mentioned prior, there are ’rules’, often there to be broken if deemed fit - and usually acceptably so.

Where this approach can (and has) come unstuck is when decisions are ‘unsound’ - often unintentionally the result of workload / time constraints/ stress levels / inexperience etc of case workers.

I find our humanities approach so very skewed & sad.

Unfortunately, with the FP being unable to front the media right from the get-go, conspiracy theories have swirled around this case from the start.

I think they tried to have a voice via their good friends initially - then later via their website and the televised police "interview", but it was too late. The conspiracy theories had already taken root.

So the only voices we have heard are from the bio family, who obviously were very opposed to William's removal and claim that William should not have been removed permanently. No matter what the DCJ and judge's reasons for the permanent removal were. Reasons we are not allowed to know due to Family Court privacy laws.

It has led to a real imbalance.

imo

 

[SouthAussie]

Hi k-mac, the bolded above by me - i haven’t seen that information come out. If that’s the case, it’s a big point

We have no idea in what capacity Matthew Davis was "helping".

For all we know, he may have been pulled into the case in October after the 2nd assault and helped form the charges. I can't imagine that a child abuse detective would have supported leaving the child there with no warnings given after the first assault, if he had known about that when it happened. At least, I certainly hope not.

imo


Child abuse unit detective Matthew Davis agreed his squad would not normally investigate such matters, but he said he was helping homicide investigators who detected the alleged abuse during their ongoing probe into William’s case.

William Tyrrell’s former foster father allegedly grabbed different child around the neck

The man, 56, has pleaded not guilty to the incident in October 2021 and another allegation of intimidation in November 2020

www.theguardian.com

 

[Chrissy74]

Unfortunately, with the FP being unable to front the media right from the get-go, conspiracy theories have swirled around this case from the start.

I think they tried to have a voice via their good friends initially - then later via their website and the televised police "interview", but it was too late. The conspiracy theories had already taken root.

So the only voices we have heard are from the bio family, who obviously were very opposed to William's removal and claim that William should not have been removed permanently. No matter what the DCJ and judge's reasons for the permanent removal were. Reasons we are not allowed to know due to Family Court privacy laws.

It has led to a real imbalance.

imo

<modsnip - broken link>

The public only became aware of Ws foster care status in 2017 when a Supreme Court Judge upheld a previous ruling made earlier that year. Justice Brereton ruled that releasing the information would not have a negative impact on the case.

So I’m not quite sure what “conspiracy theories” you are referring to SthAussie but Ws care status has never been a conspiracy, only a FACT.

In 2015 Fp did a televised interview with police as well as 60minutes. At this point the public were completely unaware of this crucial information.


Where is William? | 8.20 Sunday on 60 MinutesYouTube · 60 Minutes Australia2 Sept 2015

So if there was, as you have stated, an imbalance of public opinion especially in the first couple of years I would have to say the scale was definitely tipped in favour of the fosters.

 

[k-mac]

Unfortunately, with the FP being unable to front the media right from the get-go, conspiracy theories have swirled around this case from the start.

I think they tried to have a voice via their good friends initially - then later via their website and the televised police "interview", but it was too late. The conspiracy theories had already taken root.

So the only voices we have heard are from the bio family, who obviously were very opposed to William's removal and claim that William should not have been removed permanently. No matter what the DCJ and judge's reasons for the permanent removal were. Reasons we are not allowed to know due to Family Court privacy laws.

It has led to a real imbalance.

imo

What conspiracies do you suggest SA? can you expand?


Being publicly accused by the police as suspect #1 isn't a conspiracy IMO.
Exploring all the mis -steps and inconsistencies of the FM are fair game questions.

They are still hiding behind anonymity. no names or faces splashed across the media.
IMO the FP's are not getting any wild speculations or theories painted out there in MSM or even here at WS??
More protection they have had then any case I have ever followed.

Only avenue we have is questioning their own words and actions.
If there is nothing to hide or wrong the mud can not stick.
The truth is the truth is the truth.

William disappeared in their care.
The scrutiny is warranted and long overdue.

moo

 

[Memento Mori]

What conspiracies do you suggest SA? can you expand?


Being publicly accused by the police as suspect #1 isn't a conspiracy IMO.
Exploring all the mis -steps and inconsistencies of the FM are fair game questions.

They are still hiding behind anonymity. no names or faces splashed across the media.
IMO the FP's are not getting any wild speculations or theories painted out there in MSM or even here at WS??
More protection they have had then any case I have ever followed.

Only avenue we have is questioning their own words and actions.
If there is nothing to hide or wrong the mud can not stick.
The truth is the truth is the truth.

William disappeared in their care.
The scrutiny is warranted and long overdue.

moo

<modsnip - unnecessary>

I believe the truth to be closer to 'home'. A narcissist will rewrite the narrative to suit their own version of the truth and absolve themselves of any blame.

IMO MOO

 

[LolaAngelina]

Almost every case has some conspiracy theories being thrown around. There have plenty in regards to the fosters, some that are still persisting to this day. From their identity to their imagined “connections”.

 

[iiiii's]

Right exactly.

It has since been exposed that Rosann sort advice and influence from the child abuse team about how to do this.

BBM RSBM
I have so many questions about this too. From the point of view of SFR, they were trying to get intelligence about a missing child through surveillance. Hearing the wooden spoon incident, they did not report to DCJ, I believe because they could not think of a way to inform without blowing their cover. If they had of reported, the behavior of FP's may have changed, more support given to the family by DCJ with the issues and the child may not have had to be uprooted.... but they didn't.

Child abuse team in evidence said that they normally wouldn't do an investigation around such events but were asked to help homicide... does that mean that they advised at what threshold for proving assault and intimidation charges they advised SFR? Does that mean both teams were aware of risk situations and both did not intervene to get support? I do not deny the responsiblity of the FP's for their actions and on a couple of charges I think there is wiggle room to defend them, we shall see.

But I'm concerned there might be a level of entrapment in this scenario and the weighing up of an investigation of someone missing for a long time as opposed to a present day child, living in a pressure cooker... Those doing the surveillance are also those applying pressure from the outside to this situation by identifying one publicly as the only POI in a missing persons case, doing the big dig, pulling both FP's into the NSWCC and charging for anything that they can and the threat which became real of ending their family together. Again I acknowledge the FM's responsibility for her actions but I am wondering like I said a couple of months ago about the tail wagging the dog in this scenario. I have very mixed feelings about it all and I know in the past I was in support of all pressure on FM but something doesn't feel kosher to me about this scenario. AMOO

Just to add, you can't sit there for months on end, waiting for someone to do a crime, not intervene or prevent, stick the subject with pins in the public world and then when they crack, possibly use it as tendency evidence for a child missing for 9 years and say, "See, this is how she behaves!" Anyway, I feel sure at some point, all of this will be argued if need be.

 

[Chrissy74]

BBM RSBM
I have so many questions about this too. From the point of view of SFR, they were trying to get intelligence about a missing child through surveillance. Hearing the wooden spoon incident, they did not report to DCJ, I believe because they could not think of a way to inform without blowing their cover. If they had of reported, the behavior of FP's may have changed, more support given to the family by DCJ with the issues and the child may not have had to be uprooted.... but they didn't.

Child abuse team in evidence said that they normally wouldn't do an investigation around such events but were asked to help homicide... does that mean that they advised at what threshold for proving assault and intimidation charges they advised SFR? Does that mean both teams were aware of risk situations and both did not intervene to get support? I do not deny the responsiblity of the FP's for their actions and on a couple of charges I think there is wiggle room to defend them, we shall see.

But I'm concerned there might be a level of entrapment in this scenario and the weighing up of an investigation of someone missing for a long time as opposed to a present day child, living in a pressure cooker... Those doing the surveillance are also those applying pressure from the outside to this situation by identifying one publicly as the only POI in a missing persons case, doing the big dig, pulling both FP's into the NSWCC and charging for anything that they can and the threat which became real of ending their family together. Again I acknowledge the FM's responsibility for her actions but I am wondering like I said a couple of months ago about the tail wagging the dog in this scenario. I have very mixed feelings about it all and I know in the past I was in support of all pressure on FM but something doesn't feel kosher to me about this scenario. AMOO

Just to add, you can't sit there for months on end, waiting for someone to do a crime, not intervene or prevent, stick the subject with pins in the public world and then when they crack, possibly use it as tendency evidence for a child missing for 9 years and say, "See, this is how she behaves!" Anyway, I feel sure at some point, all of this will be argued if need be.

This is how I see it iiiis, the scale of justice weighed in favour of finding WT. W MUST BE FOUND. Sacrifices were made. L is finally free of the fp, free of the burden and trauma and free to be whomever she wants to be.

“I hope this speech makes you solve the case," she said. If it doesn't, when I am officially adult, I will be in the police force, a detective specifically, and I will find my brother and not give up until he is found.”

William Tyrrell's sister tells inquest into his disappearance she will become a detective and solve abduction mystery - ABC News

amp.abc.net.au

And I believe her!!!!!