Australia Australia - William Tyrrell Disappeared While Playing in Yard - Kendall (NSW) #77

[SLouTh]

I'm a little frustrated with the focus on a few specific incidents. Isn't there a way to argue that it was the repetition of such incidents and the atmosphere of blaming over a long period of time that constituted the intimidation?

I am wondering if that is all they have evidence of, in the covert recordings??
2 incidents nearly a year apart ????

The foster father pleaded not guilty to allegations he intimidated the young girl in November 2020 and assaulted the child by grabbing her by the neck in October 2021.

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/courts-law/new-claim-about-william-tyrrells-foster-parents/news-story/c1e811807af311a5525e83420f9b4a97

 

[bearbear]

“If I’m physically hurting children, how do you think that’s making me feel? Because the problem is, you push it and push it and push it. Someone snaps and they lose control. If you get violent, it’s because people lose control and they can’t stop”

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/courts-law/william-tyrrells-foster-mum-blames-child-for-parents-violence-in-disturbing-tapes/news-story/8d80ce4ae61c633e860a2797aeefde74

 

[SLouTh]

I'm a little frustrated with the focus on a few specific incidents. Isn't there a way to argue that it was the repetition of such incidents and the atmosphere of blaming over a long period of time that constituted the intimidation?

I had thought that SFR were trying to prove that….with FM … but not sure about FF ???

Did the Prosecutor John Marsh argue that point in particular ??? In either case???

(From the FF lying charges hearing)
The detective said he believed the questioning was relevant to the woman's character, and a “propensity for violence” towards children.

‘Ask her if she did it’: William Tyrrell foster mother quizzed over balcony theory

At a secretive examination, it was suggested that William toppled off a verandah before his foster mother disposed of his body. She insisted: “I didn’t.”

www.smh.com.au

 

[SouthAussie]

I had thought that SFR were trying to prove that….with FM … but not sure about FF ???

Did the Prosecutor John Marsh argue that point in particular ??? In either case???

(From the FF lying charges hearing)
The detective said he believed the questioning was relevant to the woman's character, and a “propensity for violence” towards children.

‘Ask her if she did it’: William Tyrrell foster mother quizzed over balcony theory

At a secretive examination, it was suggested that William toppled off a verandah before his foster mother disposed of his body. She insisted: “I didn’t.”

www.smh.com.au

And if the FD didn't have a tight and confirmed alibi, they would be saying the same thing about him. imo

 

[SouthAussie]

Can I ask you and others with some knowledge of foster care: assuming there was no threat of choking, it was purely a matter of pushing the child down to require her to undergo the sitting punishment--would that application of force be a breach of foster care rules?

I don't know. And even if it was, I wouldn't think charges would ensue. They would likely try to work with the foster parents and child to try to resolve the household issues.

I don't personally know any foster parents who have had a child go missing and have been put under immense police and public pressure.

But it seems to me that it is a difficult situation if you put a child in TO and they won't stay in TO, if a child is slamming doors and stomping around, is refusing to do their chores, and this behaviour is going on and on and on.
It would be a trying situation for parents who weren't under immense police and public pressure.

imo

 

[SLouTh]

We have not heard anything from the surveillance tapes which record any mention of William's disappearance to the young girl.

Nor that they discussed with her that Police were putting extra pressure or stress on them, about William’s disappearance …

However, those parts of the recordings may be under suppression orders??

From @bearbear link above, we know that FM did discuss the “pressure” with a friend…

IMO

 

[FromGermany1]

I dunno, JLZ. It seems pretty hard for anyone to be Superparents. No matter who you are, where you live, how you live, to be a perfect parent is impossible.

Most people do the best they can, given their circumstances. But I am pretty sure that, in time, all of us could look back and think "I could have handled that particular thing better".

Teenagers and pre-teens can be a real PIA when they want to be.

imo

The big extra problem is, not all teenager girls, who aren't quite compatible with their FOSTER parents, still have bio parents and siblings, known to them and living elsewhere, have a little brother, who was allegedly foster daddy's dear darling and foster mum's serious enemy AND who disappeared in a mysterious way one day years ago. MOO

 

[SLouTh]

The big extra problem is, not all teenager girls, who aren't quite compatible with their FOSTER parents, still have bio parents and siblings, known to them and living elsewhere, have a little brother, who was allegedly foster daddy's dear darling and foster mum's serious enemy AND who disappeared in a mysterious way one day years ago. MOO

Yes..we must remember that the child is also a victim in all of this ….

IMO

 

[SouthAussie]

Oh we remember. This child has been through a lot. And her behaviour was not out of the realm of other children of that age. All very normal. And very trying.

The problem is that the parents were not coping, and the police knew they were not coping.

The police strategy seemed to be to put pressure on the foster parents, place listening devices in their home, then sit back and listen - in hopes that they could charge them for harming William.

This child should have had nothing to do with that at all. But it turns out she has been thrust into the limelight.

imo

 

[SLouTh]

But it seems to me that it is a difficult situation if you put a child in TO and they won't stay in TO, if a child is slamming doors and stomping around, is refusing to do their chores, and this behaviour is going on and on and on.
It would be a trying situation for parents who weren't under immense police and public pressure.

“Time Out” is not endorsed by FACS either…

McMahon said he went to the foster parents’ house in 2012 for a home visit and discovered the mother was using an “exclusionary time out” for a two-year-old child in her care, which involved placing them outside. He said this method was not endorsed by the department.

Magistrate rejects attempt by Tyrrell foster mother to have charges thrown out

The woman, who cannot be named, is accused of intimidating a child who is not the missing toddler between January and August 2021. She has pleaded not guilty.

www.smh.com.au

 

[SouthAussie]

“Time Out” is not endorsed by FACS either…

McMahon said he went to the foster parents’ house in 2012 for a home visit and discovered the mother was using an “exclusionary time out” for a two-year-old child in her care, which involved placing them outside. He said this method was not endorsed by the department.

Magistrate rejects attempt by Tyrrell foster mother to have charges thrown out

The woman, who cannot be named, is accused of intimidating a child who is not the missing toddler between January and August 2021. She has pleaded not guilty.

www.smh.com.au

Because they endorse TO in the same room for a child of that age. Note the word "exclusionary".
As the child gets older, TO in their bedroom is okay. My foster parent friends use TO in their (the child's) bedroom when their foster child gets far too sassy. Their foster child is at a sassy age now.

imo

 

[SLouTh]

Because they endorse TO in the same room for a child of that age. Note the word "exclusionary".
As the child gets older, TO in their bedroom is okay. My foster parent friends use TO in their (the child's) bedroom when their foster child gets far too sassy. Their foster child is at a sassy age now.

imo

Perhaps the different States have different policy in regards to time out??

I do know in Qld it is not acceptable for Foster Carers to use that intervention, instead they teach carers to fully explain the full psychosocial consequences of the behaviour to the child ….

IMO

 

[iiiii's]

Oh we remember. This child has been through a lot. And her behaviour was not out of the realm of other children of that age. All very normal. And very trying.

The problem is that the parents were not coping, and the police knew they were not coping.

The police strategy seemed to be to put pressure on the foster parents, place listening devices in their home, then sit back and listen - in hopes that they could charge them for harming William.

This child should have had nothing to do with that at all. But it turns out she has been thrust into the limelight.

imo

The foster parents are accused of common assault against a child and stalking, intimidating and causing fear of physical or mental harm against the child between Australia Day 2021 and August 30, 2021. William Tyrrell foster father's claim about vile words to girl, 11

According to this article the alleged offences occurred prior to the FFC being identified in MSM as the suspect they were focusing on and prior to the big dig.

 

[SouthAussie]

Perhaps the different States have different policy in regards to time out??

I do know in Qld it is not acceptable for Foster Carers to use that intervention, instead they teach carers to fully explain the full psychosocial consequences of the behaviour to the child ….

IMO

There are very few children (if any) who would grasp the psychological consequences when they are angry and acting out. Space and a little time (a TO) can calm everyone down from being frazzled, THEN you might want to try to explain the psychological consequences to a child.

Maybe the laws are slightly different, but a parent has to have a way of showing a child that their behaviour is unacceptable and they need to stop and think about it. TOs are effective most of the time. In a typical household. The child may sulk for a little while for being placed in a TO but they are usually happier people when they have been alone in their calm (bedroom) environment for a little while.

Sometimes all you have to say is "would you like a TO?" and they will stop. Depends on the child, I think.

imo

 

[SLouTh]

The foster parents are accused of common assault against a child and stalking, intimidating and causing fear of physical or mental harm against the child between Australia Day 2021 and August 30, 2021. William Tyrrell foster father's claim about vile words to girl, 11

According to this article the alleged offences occurred prior to the FFC being identified in MSM as the suspect they were focusing on and prior to the big dig.

And as far back as 2020….

A court has heard a recording of the 57-year-old, known as (FF), launching into an expletive-laden rant about the girl as she got into a car for a ride to school at about 7.40am on November 23, 2020.

William Tyrrell foster father's claim about vile words to girl, 11

William Tyrrell 's foster father's vile words to an 11-year-old girl he is accused of stalking and assaulting were just part of 'talking to himself', his lawyer has claimed.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The covert recordings were obviously going on for longer than 12 months, IMO

 

[Warshawski]

"Under the defence of lawful correction in NSW, a parent or carer can use force on a child as long as the action was intended as punishment."

Tyrrell's foster father argues he used 'lawful' force on another foster child

www.9news.com.au

The defence of lawful correction in New South Wales is contained in section 61AA of the Crimes Act 1900. This provision states that the accused must prove the following:

• The force was intended as a punishment for the child.
• The force was administered by a parent or someone in a parental role.
• The force was reasonable considering the child’s age, health, maturity, nature of the misbehaviour, and other relevant factors.

The Defence of Lawful Correction

The defence of lawful correction of children, also known as reasonable chastisement or domestic discipline, exists in all Australian jurisdictions.

www.gotocourt.com.au

I don’t accept 44 min time-out as being ‘acceptable correction’ for an 11 year old child !

 

[SouthAussie]

I don’t accept 44 min time-out as being ‘acceptable correction’ for an 11 year old child !

They usually recommend that the TO starts when the child acts calm. If the child is yelling/being rude/disruptive while sitting where they are supposed to sit, they are not yet in TO.

I have no idea what this situation was. We only get little snippets.

I am not defending what happened, I am just saying that TOs are usually effective. From what I recall, it is supposed to be a minute per year of the child's age ... once they are sitting calmly.

The point is to show them they need to moderate their behaviour, be calm and quiet for a bit.

imo

 

[JLZ]

The point is to show them they need to moderate their behaviour, be calm and quiet for a bit.

And if the child tries to show the parent that the parent needs to moderate her behaviour, be calm and quiet for a bit, I suppose that's called the child being "sassy".

(Edited for clarity)

 

[bearbear]

is this shocking cruel behaviour fps have shown towards the child being normalised as acceptable??
it feels like victim blaming

 

[Mauig’ma]

is this shocking cruel behaviour fps have shown towards the child being normalised as acceptable??
it feels like victim blaming

It absolutely does imo