Autopsy Report - UCF Osteological Analysis-Duct Tape Info

[seagull65]

Not long ago a Medical Examiner on Nancy Grace said that it is nearly impossible to tell if Caylee was given a drug or not as there was no soft tissue or organs to work with. He said that no one can say she wasn't given drugs or that she was given them because you really need the soft tissue or organs to be sure. I think he is right. The bones may have shown neg results but according to him they needed the other to have a correct finding.

it sounded like they had quite a bit of hair to work with as far as drug testing, I don't know if it was in a condition where it could still be used for that? But it's so true about the lack of soft tissue. There could also have been any kind of soft tissue or connective tissue damage/injury that will never be known.

 

[Elphaba]

Only other reasons I could think of for the tape:
To cover some injury the perp didn't want to see. Or....
Applied after death to cover beginning signs of decomp and prevent leakage of fluids (as I know we've all discussed, and that would explain covering both mouth and nose)...though I think the taping would have had to be done very early before decomp got started.
Maybe even to prevent bugs getting in her nose or mouth after death if that thought bothered the person who was disposing of her. Or if person who killed her or who was having to dispose of her was deranged enough to think they needed to silence her after death (but that would mean mouth only).

The fact that no tape or bindings were found for the arms, etc... that is something to think about. So maybe the victim was already dead or unconscious when the tape was applied to the face, or the perpetrator held onto the child's arms until suffocation was complete, or any bindings on the arms were removed after (but then why not remove the face tape at the same time...) Or if tape was applied to prevent screaming but then a pillow or bag placed over the face for suffocation, making it impossible for the child to tear at the face tape....or if a violent assault was continuing, and the child never had a chance to attempt to remove the tape.

Then again, a child could be overpowered so easily by an adult, especially such a small child, binding the hands probably not necessary, I guess when children are murdered there's not usually any mention of the hands being bound.

Even if the person just taped her nose and mouth and she was just left completely free to try to pull the tape off, such a young child probably wouldn't know how to peel the tape off quickly enough. They wouldn't know how to try to get hold of a corner of the tape for example.

Taping of the mouth could even have been a message to Casey or someone else, depending on who the perp was.

All of the possibilities are certainly very sad.

Thought provoking thread, thank you.

In regards to what I bolded:

There was a very viable instant toddler restraint system found in the bag her body had been in: her blanket.

Using a blanket to papoose a small child for control is not unusual. When my daughter was Caylee's age and needed stitches over her eye (her brother accidently hit her with the car door) the ER wrapped her in a blanket, papoose-style, to stitch her up. So, Casey could have easily papoosed Caylee for control and then went about killing her via suffocation using not only the tape, but the blanket as well. If this is what happened, the blanket could have had some biological signs on it like feces or urine. (as death came on in such a horrible act, Caylee's body would have more than likely lost control of her bowels and bladder)

What stops me short from considering that the actions of taping Caylee's mouth and nose shut was to stop bodily fluids from leaking out: the nose and mouth are not the only orifices that leak during decomposition. That makes opine that if Casey was worried to the point of taking those actions to stop the leaking, then I would think that she would have taped Caylee in other areas, as well.

But, who knows... there is just no way to figure out Casey.

 

[seagull65]

your post edited for brevity.

i was forwarded an EXCELLENT article about Florida's sunshine law, the first authoritative article i have read on this mess. i believe the state has a lot more evidence, and what we have seen is only the tip of the iceberg. i believe tox results will come out showing drug residue in Caylee's bones.

that would be wonderful if the bones can provide information

 

[DotsEyes]

One of the medical experts on NG was aghast when everyone kept saying there was no tissue for drug test purposes. He was appalled because, as he said, "bone IS tissue!" it's just not soft tissue, it is hard tissue. I guess he was set back by the stupidity of the questions. Anyway, he said that long term drug ingestion would show up in the bones, but not short term or one time drug ingestion.

 

[seagull65]

In regards to what I bolded:

There was a very viable instant toddler restraint system found in the bag her body had been in: her blanket.

Using a blanket to papoose a small child for control is not unusual. When my daughter was Caylee's age and needed stitches over her eye (her brother accidently hit her with the car door) the ER wrapped her in a blanket, papoose-style, to stitch her up. So, Casey could have easily papoosed Caylee for control and then went about killing her via suffocation using not only the tape, but the blanket as well. If this is what happened, the blanket could have had some biological signs on it like feces or urine. (as death came on in such a horrible act, Caylee's body would have more than likely lost control of her bowels and bladder)

What stops me short from considering that the actions of taping Caylee's mouth and nose shut was to stop bodily fluids from leaking out: the nose and mouth are not the only orifices that leak during decomposition. That makes opine that if Casey was worried to the point of taking those actions to stop the leaking, then I would think that she would have taped Caylee in other areas, as well.

But, who knows... there is just no way to figure out Casey.

Good point about the blanket. I agree about the tape for stopping leakage....though we discussed that possibility a lot in the beginning, I think for her to even think about the leakage she would have had to see it beginning and it wouldn't have only been from the nose and mouth, and by then it would be too late for taping anyway. But, maybe if the tongue began swelling or protruding very quickly, would she consider closing the mouth with tape? I don't know.
Overall, to me, tape on the mouth means an assault, it means murder, and if it was over the nose, too, then the tape itself was most likely the cause of death. However, If Casey had really wanted to end Caylee's life, if the goal had been to suffocate Caylee, Casey could have accomplished this so easily with a pillow or plastic bag or the pool and made it look accidental, claiming she must have been playing with the plastic bag, I found her with it around her head, she got out the back door and into the pool when I was in the restroom, or whatever. Why tape her face much less leave the tape on afterward? (Much less many other things that I won't bore you by listing here.) So the tape seems much more to me like part of an assault, in other words to prevent her screaming during transport or assault, and by someone who had no need to make it look accidental, someone who didn't care about leaving the tape on. Though I also can't rule Casey out of course.

 

[seagull65]

One of the medical experts on NG was aghast when everyone kept saying there was no tissue for drug test purposes. He was appalled because, as he said, "bone IS tissue!" it's just not soft tissue, it is hard tissue. I guess he was set back by the stupidity of the questions. Anyway, he said that long term drug ingestion would show up in the bones, but not short term or one time drug ingestion.

I know, that used to make me laugh when NG went on and on about "but it's my understanding that there are only bones, there's no tissue left" (etc). As if bones are plastic or rock or something. One of many kind of amazing NG-isms.

 

[TinaD]

Although I can understand what several posters are saying about it being easier to suffocate a child with a pillow or hand, I think I can see why tape may have been used.

Assuming Caylee was chloroformed, applying tape means that you can then turn away and not have to watch, whereas a pillow or hand requires you to be more involved and actually watch Caylee die. Even if the pillow covered her eyes, it still seems to me that using tape helps the perp (ie KC) be more detached from the act. Hope that makes sense,

 

[DotsEyes]

Let me say this:

Casey Marie Anthony DID NOT and I repeat DID NOT pick up her dead daughter's head and wrap duck tape around it to stop post mortem leakage from the child's mouth and nose. To think she did is just wishful thinking; hoping the child was dead before the duck tape could snuff the life out of her because no one wants to imagine such a horrible death. I completely understand. But the fact of the matter is that KC's treatment of Caylee's body, the things we KNOW she did, prove that she was not concerned in the least about "caring" for the body or whether it decomposed in her trunk or in the trash bags in the swamp.

She taped the baby's head up and either sat on her until she stopped moving, wrapped her tightly in a blanket until she stopped moving or just left her to stumble/fumble around for herself until she died. It was a cruel death. Caylee was terrified until she lost consciousness. Then mommy went to watch movies with her beau du jour.

KC is a very sick and twisted young woman. Her past caught up with her all at once and everyone began exchanging stories of her history of lying, stealing, scheming, manipulating and general slutty nature. There isn't one person in her life that she didn't intentionally screw over. And she has been this way for a long time, she didn't just snap into an alter-ego one day and kill her baby. Her whole life was just a build up to the murder. If not Caylee, someone else.

She didn't kill Caylee to save her from CA. Remember, KC believes she is perfect, not a defective individual as a result of bad parenting.

She killed Caylee because Caylee was inconvenient to her life plans. She isn't the first mother to slaughter her kid(s) because she thought the man of her obsession was non-committal BECAUSE of them. Giving birth does not automatically make someone a loving, kind and protective mother and it is just a fact that some mothers hate their children.

She probably killed the pets she buried in the swamp.

When she thought "duck tape!" - the premeditation began.

She deserves life in prison without possibility of parole, pardon or commutation of sentence. There is no reason to seek the DP. She will not re-offend and executing her only kills the rest of her family. It's a lose/lose situation.

 

[Tuffy]

One of the medical experts on NG was aghast when everyone kept saying there was no tissue for drug test purposes. He was appalled because, as he said, "bone IS tissue!" it's just not soft tissue, it is hard tissue. I guess he was set back by the stupidity of the questions. Anyway, he said that long term drug ingestion would show up in the bones, but not short term or one time drug ingestion.

Did they forget that toxicology testing was done on her hair? I know the hair won't show one time or short term ingestion, but will still give a long term history. (same as bone!)

 

[Tuffy]

Good point about the blanket. I agree about the tape for stopping leakage....though we discussed that possibility a lot in the beginning, I think for her to even think about the leakage she would have had to see it beginning and it wouldn't have only been from the nose and mouth, and by then it would be too late for taping anyway. But, maybe if the tongue began swelling or protruding very quickly, would she consider closing the mouth with tape? I don't know.
Overall, to me, tape on the mouth means an assault, it means murder, and if it was over the nose, too, then the tape itself was most likely the cause of death. However, If Casey had really wanted to end Caylee's life, if the goal had been to suffocate Caylee, Casey could have accomplished this so easily with a pillow or plastic bag or the pool and made it look accidental, claiming she must have been playing with the plastic bag, I found her with it around her head, she got out the back door and into the pool when I was in the restroom, or whatever. Why tape her face much less leave the tape on afterward? (Much less many other things that I won't bore you by listing here.) So the tape seems much more to me like part of an assault, in other words to prevent her screaming during transport or assault, and by someone who had no need to make it look accidental, someone who didn't care about leaving the tape on. Though I also can't rule Casey out of course.

BBM:

The killer (Casey IMO) didn't care what happened to the body after death, I don't believe.
I don't think the body remained unbagged for long after death. Therefore, why be concerned with leakage, or how the face might look. The body is inside not just one, but three bags.
Then the body, still triple bagged, is driven around for a couple of days before being tossed on the roadside in the brush.

 

[Tuffy]

Only other reasons I can think of for the tape, just brainstorming:
Maybe to cover some injury the perp didn't want to see. Or....
as we've all discussed many times I know, applied after death to cover beginning signs of decomp and prevent leakage of fluids from nose/mouth....though I think the taping would have had to be done very early before decomp got started.
Maybe even to prevent bugs getting in her nose or mouth after death if that thought bothered the person who was disposing of her. But if it was that kind of sentiment, I think the person would have used something other than duct tape, really, so..... Or if the person who killed her or who was having to dispose of her was deranged enough to think they needed to silence her after death....
The fact that no tape or bindings were found for the arms, etc... that is something to think about. So maybe the victim was already dead or unconscious when the tape was applied to the face, or the perpetrator held onto the child's arms until suffocation was complete, or any bindings on the arms were removed after (but then why not remove the face tape at the same time...) Or if tape was applied to prevent screaming but then a pillow or bag placed over the face for suffocation, making it impossible for the child to tear at the face tape....or if a violent assault was continuing, and the child never had a chance to attempt to remove the tape.

Then again, I guess when children are murdered there's not usually any mention of the hands being bound, since children are unfortunately easily overpowered by an adult assailant.

Even if the person just taped her nose and mouth and she was just left completely free to try to pull the tape off, such a young child would most likely not be able to peel the tape off. They wouldn't know how to try to get hold of a corner of the tape for example.

Taping of Caylee's mouth could even have been a message to Casey or someone else, depending on who the perp was. The heart sticker also.

All of the possibilities are certainly very sad.

Thought provoking thread, thank you guys.

BBM:

BTW- Good job brainstorming! Thank you for throwing so many angles out there to examine!

As far as binding go, I think it is plausible that none would be required on such a young, and very small victim. I also think that, like the blanket, there may have been items at the scene that could have been used to restrain. There was also a shirt found. A shirt half taken off could be used to keep the arms still. This I can testify to having gotten my own arms stuck in my own shirt while undressing. :iamashamed0005: (yeah, I'm pretty coordinated sometimes)

 

[doogiesgirl]

One of the medical experts on NG was aghast when everyone kept saying there was no tissue for drug test purposes. He was appalled because, as he said, "bone IS tissue!" it's just not soft tissue, it is hard tissue. I guess he was set back by the stupidity of the questions. Anyway, he said that long term drug ingestion would show up in the bones, but not short term or one time drug ingestion.

You know what kills me? That some day in the future, bone testing for short term or one time drug ingestion will be possible. I hope the state or someone has thought to hang on to a piece of her bone since Caylee was cremated by the A's. JMO

 

[cloud9]

Good point about the blanket. I agree about the tape for stopping leakage....though we discussed that possibility a lot in the beginning, I think for her to even think about the leakage she would have had to see it beginning and it wouldn't have only been from the nose and mouth, and by then it would be too late for taping anyway. But, maybe if the tongue began swelling or protruding very quickly, would she consider closing the mouth with tape? I don't know.
Overall, to me, tape on the mouth means an assault, it means murder, and if it was over the nose, too, then the tape itself was most likely the cause of death. However, If Casey had really wanted to end Caylee's life, if the goal had been to suffocate Caylee, Casey could have accomplished this so easily with a pillow or plastic bag or the pool and made it look accidental, claiming she must have been playing with the plastic bag, I found her with it around her head, she got out the back door and into the pool when I was in the restroom, or whatever. Why tape her face much less leave the tape on afterward? (Much less many other things that I won't bore you by listing here.) So the tape seems much more to me like part of an assault, in other words to prevent her screaming during transport or assault, and by someone who had no need to make it look accidental, someone who didn't care about leaving the tape on. Though I also can't rule Casey out of course.

Excellent post! Here's something else bothering me. What about the "death rattle?" Maybe when KC heard it, she freaked, she then covered Caylee's mouth and nose with Duct tape thinking it would stop the noise.

Death rattle the gurgling sound produced by air passing through mucus or fluid in the lungs of a dying person. It is said to indicate approaching death, or sometimes to be the sign of the arrival of death itself; the last sound a dying person makes.

http://www.answers.com/topic/death-rattle?cat=health

 

[KenoshaKid]

Only other reasons I can think of for the tape, just brainstorming:
Maybe to cover some injury the perp didn't want to see. Or....
as we've all discussed many times I know, applied after death to cover beginning signs of decomp and prevent leakage of fluids from nose/mouth....though I think the taping would have had to be done very early before decomp got started.
Maybe even to prevent bugs getting in her nose or mouth after death if that thought bothered the person who was disposing of her. But if it was that kind of sentiment, I think the person would have used something other than duct tape, really, so..... Or if the person who killed her or who was having to dispose of her was deranged enough to think they needed to silence her after death....
The fact that no tape or bindings were found for the arms, etc... that is something to think about. So maybe the victim was already dead or unconscious when the tape was applied to the face, or the perpetrator held onto the child's arms until suffocation was complete, or any bindings on the arms were removed after (but then why not remove the face tape at the same time...) Or if tape was applied to prevent screaming but then a pillow or bag placed over the face for suffocation, making it impossible for the child to tear at the face tape....or if a violent assault was continuing, and the child never had a chance to attempt to remove the tape.

Then again, I guess when children are murdered there's not usually any mention of the hands being bound, since children are unfortunately easily overpowered by an adult assailant.

Even if the person just taped her nose and mouth and she was just left completely free to try to pull the tape off, such a young child would most likely not be able to peel the tape off. They wouldn't know how to try to get hold of a corner of the tape for example.

Taping of Caylee's mouth could even have been a message to Casey or someone else, depending on who the perp was. The heart sticker also.

All of the possibilities are certainly very sad.

Thought provoking thread, thank you guys.

My bold-

Does it state that in the documents? I thought we didn't know one way or the other.

 

[21merc7]

You know what kills me? That some day in the future, bone testing for short term or one time drug ingestion will be possible. I hope the state or someone has thought to hang on to a piece of her bone since Caylee was cremated by the A's. JMO

I am not certain, but I do think that the smal peices needed for the previous testing would still be in evidence. (I really do not know, just think this would be the case.) However, once the case is tried, and if KC is convicted, there probably would be no need for further testing. It would not be a cold case or newly discovered case. It would be a "closed" case. JMO.

 

[MissJames]

Although I can understand what several posters are saying about it being easier to suffocate a child with a pillow or hand, I think I can see why tape may have been used.

Assuming Caylee was chloroformed, applying tape means that you can then turn away and not have to watch, whereas a pillow or hand requires you to be more involved and actually watch Caylee die. Even if the pillow covered her eyes, it still seems to me that using tape helps the perp (ie KC) be more detached from the act. Hope that makes sense,

Or the opposite.If KC was in a rage ,as several tv psychologists have suggested,KC may have enjoyed watching Caylee's eyes and seeing her struggle.

 

[Tuba]

"to prevent her screaming during transport or assault": that would be in the Pontiac. That evidence is in. So maybe it was KC's chauffeur, who is familiar with KC's nanny.

 

[wenwe4]

I think KC didn't have a babysitter and used duct tape to put Caylee in the trunk - in case she woke up as she was now verbal and could be understood by other adults. (child yelling from locked trunk) Remember Caylee was just becoming verbal and putting together understandable sentences. The jig was up. Mommy could not say they were staying at the Nanny's when Caylee would tell someone they stayed at Ric's or Tony's or someone else. Caylee would have no reason to admit to knowing Zanny when one never existed. I think the chloroform was KC's attempt to clean the smell from the car and she mixed cleaning agents (ie: bleach & lysol). JMO

 

[doogiesgirl]

I am not certain, but I do think that the smal peices needed for the previous testing would still be in evidence. (I really do not know, just think this would be the case.) However, once the case is tried, and if KC is convicted, there probably would be no need for further testing. It would not be a cold case or newly discovered case. It would be a "closed" case. JMO.

After the case is over, appeals and all, it's over. But it is possible that a future private investigation would be interested in finding that out for certain. For the public's interest as to whether Caylee was drugged before her death, since this case has held the national public's attention, and their desire to make sure justice was served justly. I don't think it will play any part in any further consequences for KC, it's value would be to just solve a mystery. Possibly one of these crime shows, etc. KWIM? Thats what I am hoping at least. To know for certain one day in the future. Let's hope you are correct that someone, somewhere is holding small pieces of her bone. JMO

 

[1SweetNov]

I think Casey was in an uncontrollable rage after the argument with Cindy - Caylee would not be quiet, and in that rage, she grabbed the duct tape and wrapped her daughter's head around and around to shut her the f- up. Then she could think, focus time on herself. I think she eventually scooped her daughter up in her blankets & maybe slapped the sticker on her in some short, demented adios. A sociopath has no remorse, her daughter was an object and in the way of her mother's lifestyle. Doubt pre-meditation, think more a life of simmering anger which culminated that awful night. Again, jmo.