I am no expert by any means but one example would be if self defence. EG. Fighting off someone who attacks you and they die. You didn't set out to kill; you were defending yourself.
Murder, as defined in common law countries, is the unlawful killing of another human being with intent (or malice aforethought), and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide.
That is from Wikipedia under Murder.
So is ALL murder premeditated? Is that what defines it as murder rather than manslaughter?
Murder, as defined in common law countries, is the unlawful killing of another human being with intent (or malice aforethought), and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide.
That is from Wikipedia under Murder.
So is ALL murder premeditated? Is that what defines it as murder rather than manslaughter?
Wow, I hadn't thought of that. I just assumed the tape on the gas can had been there, but we don't know that do we ?
I thought (and please don't ask me to show you where because I don't know where I'd begin to look) that something was mentioned (and now that I'm thinking about it maybe it's in the thread regarding the gas cans) that GA put the tape on one of the gas cans to distinguish it from another gas can that held gas for the lawn mower.
Can anbody back me up on that?
Just trying to establish that the tape was already on the gas can and didn't have anything necessarily to do with Casey duct taping Caylee's mouth other than it might have been the exact same tape.
Why would he do that? The same gas goes in a lawn mower that goes in the car. The lawn mower might need 2 cycle engine oil added but that is added to the oil tank and not the gas directly as far as I know. Maybe a really old lawn mower would need the gas mixed but not a new mower. I was trying to think if my hubby's chain saw or weed eater needed the gas mixed with the oil but I am pretty sure they do not. If she ran mixed oil and gas through her car, it should cause some kind of car trouble but might need to be a significant amount. I am not sure how long it would take to mess up her engine.
DH has 2 gas cans clearly marked. 1 has mower gas other has weed eater gas and oil mixture.
Other thought, maybe the tape was just put on after death to close Caylee's mouth. I think after death the mouth can often hang open and be difficult to close. She would have had to bind it around her head to accomplish that. I hate to paint the picture, but the eyes remain open many times also and pehaps and open mouth and open eyes were just annoying to KC.Only other reasons I can think of for the tape, just brainstorming:
Maybe to cover some injury the perp didn't want to see. Or....
as we've all discussed many times I know, applied after death to cover beginning signs of decomp and prevent leakage of fluids from nose/mouth....though I think the taping would have had to be done very early before decomp got started.
Maybe even to prevent bugs getting in her nose or mouth after death if that thought bothered the person who was disposing of her. But if it was that kind of sentiment, I think the person would have used something other than duct tape, really, so..... Or if the person who killed her or who was having to dispose of her was deranged enough to think they needed to silence her after death....
The fact that no tape or bindings were found for the arms, etc... that is something to think about. So maybe the victim was already dead or unconscious when the tape was applied to the face, or the perpetrator held onto the child's arms until suffocation was complete, or any bindings on the arms were removed after (but then why not remove the face tape at the same time...) Or if tape was applied to prevent screaming but then a pillow or bag placed over the face for suffocation, making it impossible for the child to tear at the face tape....or if a violent assault was continuing, and the child never had a chance to attempt to remove the tape.
Then again, I guess when children are murdered there's not usually any mention of the hands being bound, since children are unfortunately easily overpowered by an adult assailant.
Even if the person just taped her nose and mouth and she was just left completely free to try to pull the tape off, such a young child would most likely not be able to peel the tape off. They wouldn't know how to try to get hold of a corner of the tape for example.
Taping of Caylee's mouth could even have been a message to Casey or someone else, depending on who the perp was. The heart sticker also.
All of the possibilities are certainly very sad.
Thought provoking thread, thank you guys.
Other thought, maybe the tape was just put on after death to close Caylee's mouth. I think after death the mouth can often hang open and be difficult to close. She would have had to bind it around her head to accomplish that. I hate to paint the picture, but the eyes remain open many times also and pehaps and open mouth and open eyes were just annoying to KC.
Just a thought.
ETA: I should add that I have not read all the information on the tape, so if it has already been concretely established in the reports that the tape was put on prior to death..then never mind![]()
There's no evidence or direct suggestion that the tape was applied before death, only the very ambiguous opinion of the M.E. that the tape was applied 'before decomposition'. That statement is open to interpretation and I expect Dr G. will be questioned very closely about what she actually meant. If she meant 'before decomposition started' then the defence will probably ask her whether she means before death or just after death and what evidence supports her intended meaning.
IMO, the broad nature of her statement means nothing more concrete than an opinion that the tape was applied before Caylee's body had decomposed, but the impreciseness of the statement is intentional IMO, because there was insufficient evidence to indicate when it was put on, only that it was applied some time before Caylee's hair came off and formed a mat under her skull, keeping the tape in situ. I expect there will also be much discussion about whether the tape had shrunk or moved, what areas of the face it's original placement covered and the implications of any expert testimony in that respect.
Why would he do that? The same gas goes in a lawn mower that goes in the car. The lawn mower might need 2 cycle engine oil added but that is added to the oil tank and not the gas directly as far as I know. Maybe a really old lawn mower would need the gas mixed but not a new mower. I was trying to think if my hubby's chain saw or weed eater needed the gas mixed with the oil but I am pretty sure they do not. If she ran mixed oil and gas through her car, it should cause some kind of car trouble but might need to be a significant amount. I am not sure how long it would take to mess up her engine.
Other thought, maybe the tape was just put on after death to close Caylee's mouth. I think after death the mouth can often hang open and be difficult to close. She would have had to bind it around her head to accomplish that. I hate to paint the picture, but the eyes remain open many times also and pehaps and open mouth and open eyes were just annoying to KC.
Just a thought.
ETA: I should add that I have not read all the information on the tape, so if it has already been concretely established in the reports that the tape was put on prior to death..then never mind![]()
There's no evidence or direct suggestion that the tape was applied before death, only the very ambiguous opinion of the M.E. that the tape was applied 'before decomposition'. That statement is open to interpretation and I expect Dr G. will be questioned very closely about what she actually meant. If she meant 'before decomposition started' then the defence will probably ask her whether she means before death or just after death and what evidence supports her intended meaning.
IMO, the broad nature of her statement means nothing more concrete than an opinion that the tape was applied before Caylee's body had decomposed, but the impreciseness of the statement is intentional IMO, because there was insufficient evidence to indicate when it was put on, only that it was applied some time before Caylee's hair came off and formed a mat under her skull, keeping the tape in situ. I expect there will also be much discussion about whether the tape had shrunk or moved, what areas of the face it's original placement covered and the implications of any expert testimony in that respect.
According to Dr. G., the tape was placed before decomposition and by what you're describing, it would take hours for the body to become in the manner of which you are describing. KC would have had to place the tape on the mouth AFTER decomposition had already started i.e. after rigor had already begun to set in etc. Dr. G. stated that the tape was placed BEFORE decomposition. So based on her statement, I'm thinking A - the tape was placed on Caylee's mouth immediately after death and if so - why? Not meaning to be graphic, but sometimes after death (depending on how a person died), if fluid escapes, it can escape from the mouth. Also, not only that, fluid can also escape from all orifices. She was bound in the face with multiple layers over the mouth and nose as if she were being "muffled" or "quieted" and "suffocated." The tape was so thick it lasted through the elements. And B - I'm thinking if she was bound prior to decomposition - which decomposition starts immediately after death - to me, that means that she was alive and she taped her mouth and she was suffocated by the tape. JMOOOther thought, maybe the tape was just put on after death to close Caylee's mouth. I think after death the mouth can often hang open and be difficult to close. She would have had to bind it around her head to accomplish that. I hate to paint the picture, but the eyes remain open many times also and pehaps and open mouth and open eyes were just annoying to KC.
Just a thought.
ETA: I should add that I have not read all the information on the tape, so if it has already been concretely established in the reports that the tape was put on prior to death..then never mind![]()
There's no evidence or direct suggestion that the tape was applied before death, only the very ambiguous opinion of the M.E. that the tape was applied 'before decomposition'. That statement is open to interpretation and I expect Dr G. will be questioned very closely about what she actually meant. If she meant 'before decomposition started' then the defence will probably ask her whether she means before death or just after death and what evidence supports her intended meaning.
IMO, the broad nature of her statement means nothing more concrete than an opinion that the tape was applied before Caylee's body had decomposed, but the impreciseness of the statement is intentional IMO, because there was insufficient evidence to indicate when it was put on, only that it was applied some time before Caylee's hair came off and formed a mat under her skull, keeping the tape in situ. I expect there will also be much discussion about whether the tape had shrunk or moved, what areas of the face it's original placement covered and the implications of any expert testimony in that respect.
The only thing I want to clarify is that it wouldn't take hours for the eyes and mouth to fall open after death.According to Dr. G., the tape was placed before decomposition and by what you're describing, it would take hours for the body to become in the manner of which you are describing. KC would have had to place the tape on the mouth AFTER decomposition had already started i.e. after rigor had already begun to set in etc. Dr. G. stated that the tape was placed BEFORE decomposition. So based on her statement, I'm thinking A - the tape was placed on Caylee's mouth immediately after death and if so - why? Not meaning to be graphic, but sometimes after death (depending on how a person died), if fluid escapes, it can escape from the mouth. Also, not only that, fluid can also escape from all orifices. She was bound in the face with multiple layers over the mouth and nose as if she were being "muffled" or "quieted" and "suffocated." The tape was so thick it lasted through the elements. And B - I'm thinking if she was bound prior to decomposition - which decomposition starts immediately after death - to me, that means that she was alive and she taped her mouth and she was suffocated by the tape. JMOO
What parent has EVER tried to close a gaping mouth with duct tape after a child died? You don't need to tape over the nose to close the mouth.The only thing I want to clarify is that it wouldn't take hours for the eyes and mouth to fall open after death.
In reality I don;t even think what I suggested is what happened. I was just throwing it out there.