Autopsy Report - UCF Osteological Analysis-Duct Tape Info

[DotsEyes]

RE: KC's crazy eyes.

Watch the jailhouse video with GA and CA with no sound. KC's eyes looks like she is possessed.

 

[AZlawyer]

I am no expert by any means but one example would be if self defence. EG. Fighting off someone who attacks you and they die. You didn't set out to kill; you were defending yourself.

But then it isn't murder; it's justifiable homicide and not a criminal act.

 

[magic-cat]

Murder, as defined in common law countries, is the unlawful killing of another human being with intent (or malice aforethought), and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide.

That is from Wikipedia under Murder.

So is ALL murder premeditated? Is that what defines it as murder rather than manslaughter?

 

[AZlawyer]

Murder, as defined in common law countries, is the unlawful killing of another human being with intent (or malice aforethought), and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide.

That is from Wikipedia under Murder.

So is ALL murder premeditated? Is that what defines it as murder rather than manslaughter?

Second degree murder is not premeditated.

 

[Lanie]

Murder, as defined in common law countries, is the unlawful killing of another human being with intent (or malice aforethought), and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide.

That is from Wikipedia under Murder.

So is ALL murder premeditated? Is that what defines it as murder rather than manslaughter?

This is MOO, but I think it means murder without premeditation is when you are deliberately doing something to hurt someone but not necessarily kill them, and they die.

If you decided to drug me to knock me out so you could steal all my money, and I died from it, that would be murder, but not premeditated. Same thing with fights, some stabbings and shootings, etc.
Lanie

 

[SleuthyMama]

Wow, I hadn't thought of that. I just assumed the tape on the gas can had been there, but we don't know that do we ?

I thought (and please don't ask me to show you where because I don't know where I'd begin to look) that something was mentioned (and now that I'm thinking about it maybe it's in the thread regarding the gas cans) that GA put the tape on one of the gas cans to distinguish it from another gas can that held gas for the lawn mower.

Can anbody back me up on that?

Just trying to establish that the tape was already on the gas can and didn't have anything necessarily to do with Casey duct taping Caylee's mouth other than it might have been the exact same tape.

 

[100%Agave]

I thought (and please don't ask me to show you where because I don't know where I'd begin to look) that something was mentioned (and now that I'm thinking about it maybe it's in the thread regarding the gas cans) that GA put the tape on one of the gas cans to distinguish it from another gas can that held gas for the lawn mower.

Can anbody back me up on that?

Just trying to establish that the tape was already on the gas can and didn't have anything necessarily to do with Casey duct taping Caylee's mouth other than it might have been the exact same tape.

Why would he do that? The same gas goes in a lawn mower that goes in the car. The lawn mower might need 2 cycle engine oil added but that is added to the oil tank and not the gas directly as far as I know. Maybe a really old lawn mower would need the gas mixed but not a new mower. I was trying to think if my hubby's chain saw or weed eater needed the gas mixed with the oil but I am pretty sure they do not. If she ran mixed oil and gas through her car, it should cause some kind of car trouble but might need to be a significant amount. I am not sure how long it would take to mess up her engine.

 

[wonders]

Why would he do that? The same gas goes in a lawn mower that goes in the car. The lawn mower might need 2 cycle engine oil added but that is added to the oil tank and not the gas directly as far as I know. Maybe a really old lawn mower would need the gas mixed but not a new mower. I was trying to think if my hubby's chain saw or weed eater needed the gas mixed with the oil but I am pretty sure they do not. If she ran mixed oil and gas through her car, it should cause some kind of car trouble but might need to be a significant amount. I am not sure how long it would take to mess up her engine.

DH has 2 gas cans clearly marked. 1 has mower gas other has weed eater gas and oil mixture.

 

[Gma Kat]

I recall seeing a photo (police evidence photo) that shows the gas cans stacked neatly in the garage, at least I thought it was the garage, maybe it was the shed; anyhow, there was gray duct tape on the can in the picture. This was after KC's arrest, before Caylee was found. I'll look for the photo, but I'm on dial-up so I'll be searching until next wednesday! TTFN!

 

[100%Agave]

DH has 2 gas cans clearly marked. 1 has mower gas other has weed eater gas and oil mixture.

I'll agree with that. We have several gas cans but they all hold the same type of gas with nothing added. I guess the hubby just adds oil to the gas as needed but I could swear that our weed eater has a separate tank for oil. I know now that the chain saw does because I checked. Oh well, I wonder what kind of gas was in the can with the tape on it. She took it to put in her car right?

 

[JBean]

Only other reasons I can think of for the tape, just brainstorming:
Maybe to cover some injury the perp didn't want to see. Or....
as we've all discussed many times I know, applied after death to cover beginning signs of decomp and prevent leakage of fluids from nose/mouth....though I think the taping would have had to be done very early before decomp got started.
Maybe even to prevent bugs getting in her nose or mouth after death if that thought bothered the person who was disposing of her. But if it was that kind of sentiment, I think the person would have used something other than duct tape, really, so..... Or if the person who killed her or who was having to dispose of her was deranged enough to think they needed to silence her after death....
The fact that no tape or bindings were found for the arms, etc... that is something to think about. So maybe the victim was already dead or unconscious when the tape was applied to the face, or the perpetrator held onto the child's arms until suffocation was complete, or any bindings on the arms were removed after (but then why not remove the face tape at the same time...) Or if tape was applied to prevent screaming but then a pillow or bag placed over the face for suffocation, making it impossible for the child to tear at the face tape....or if a violent assault was continuing, and the child never had a chance to attempt to remove the tape.

Then again, I guess when children are murdered there's not usually any mention of the hands being bound, since children are unfortunately easily overpowered by an adult assailant.

Even if the person just taped her nose and mouth and she was just left completely free to try to pull the tape off, such a young child would most likely not be able to peel the tape off. They wouldn't know how to try to get hold of a corner of the tape for example.

Taping of Caylee's mouth could even have been a message to Casey or someone else, depending on who the perp was. The heart sticker also.

All of the possibilities are certainly very sad.

Thought provoking thread, thank you guys.

Other thought, maybe the tape was just put on after death to close Caylee's mouth. I think after death the mouth can often hang open and be difficult to close. She would have had to bind it around her head to accomplish that. I hate to paint the picture, but the eyes remain open many times also and pehaps and open mouth and open eyes were just annoying to KC.
Just a thought.

ETA: I should add that I have not read all the information on the tape, so if it has already been concretely established in the reports that the tape was put on prior to death..then never mind

 

[Devon]

Other thought, maybe the tape was just put on after death to close Caylee's mouth. I think after death the mouth can often hang open and be difficult to close. She would have had to bind it around her head to accomplish that. I hate to paint the picture, but the eyes remain open many times also and pehaps and open mouth and open eyes were just annoying to KC.
Just a thought.

ETA: I should add that I have not read all the information on the tape, so if it has already been concretely established in the reports that the tape was put on prior to death..then never mind

There's no evidence or direct suggestion that the tape was applied before death, only the very ambiguous opinion of the M.E. that the tape was applied 'before decomposition'. That statement is open to interpretation and I expect Dr G. will be questioned very closely about what she actually meant. If she meant 'before decomposition started' then the defence will probably ask her whether she means before death or just after death and what evidence supports her intended meaning.

IMO, the broad nature of her statement means nothing more concrete than an opinion that the tape was applied before Caylee's body had decomposed, but the impreciseness of the statement is intentional IMO, because there was insufficient evidence to indicate when it was put on, only that it was applied some time before Caylee's hair came off and formed a mat under her skull, keeping the tape in situ. I expect there will also be much discussion about whether the tape had shrunk or moved, what areas of the face it's original placement covered and the implications of any expert testimony in that respect.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

While the defense experts can use the smokescreen of the duct tape being placed on her after death...we can't overlook the fact it was present on her face and around her head. It doesn't really matter if it was placed there before she was murdered or after. There should have been no duct tape at all. This will go against any theory of accidental death.

It could shrink, but it would seem to me it would have slipped up past the nose in that case. It could have slipped, but I find this doubtful as it appeared to be secured by the matting of the hair in the back and because of the process it took to remove it from the skull (cutting it into pieces). If it had slipped up, the mandible should have shown more signs of trying to separate from the skull, imo.

I think the duct tape was firmly placed over both the nose and the mouth. I also believe it was done prior to her death and was a contributing factor. This leads me to her being killed at the A fam home where the duct tape, trash bags, comforter, and laundry hamper were located instead of taking place in a remote area.

 

[Gma Kat]

There's no evidence or direct suggestion that the tape was applied before death, only the very ambiguous opinion of the M.E. that the tape was applied 'before decomposition'. That statement is open to interpretation and I expect Dr G. will be questioned very closely about what she actually meant. If she meant 'before decomposition started' then the defence will probably ask her whether she means before death or just after death and what evidence supports her intended meaning.

IMO, the broad nature of her statement means nothing more concrete than an opinion that the tape was applied before Caylee's body had decomposed, but the impreciseness of the statement is intentional IMO, because there was insufficient evidence to indicate when it was put on, only that it was applied some time before Caylee's hair came off and formed a mat under her skull, keeping the tape in situ. I expect there will also be much discussion about whether the tape had shrunk or moved, what areas of the face it's original placement covered and the implications of any expert testimony in that respect.

bbm: ITA, with respect to the bolded content - I am wondering if the hair that the tape was attached to was consistent with hair that was brushed (hairs vertical and smooth attached to tape) or if the hair was messy as if tape applied during a struggle. without understanding the condition, or actually seeing the visual on this - not that I want to, but it would help me understand more.

 

[magic-cat]

Why would he do that? The same gas goes in a lawn mower that goes in the car. The lawn mower might need 2 cycle engine oil added but that is added to the oil tank and not the gas directly as far as I know. Maybe a really old lawn mower would need the gas mixed but not a new mower. I was trying to think if my hubby's chain saw or weed eater needed the gas mixed with the oil but I am pretty sure they do not. If she ran mixed oil and gas through her car, it should cause some kind of car trouble but might need to be a significant amount. I am not sure how long it would take to mess up her engine.

It has been theorized that maybe Casey did accidentally get the "mix" gas can (generally used for weedeaters) and this may have been the source of her breakdown? It would not take much at all to throw off the delicate balance of the fuel system in a car, and certainly if the can was full and newly mixed then it certainly could have caused the sputters and the refusal to start which she seemed to have experienced.

Other thought, maybe the tape was just put on after death to close Caylee's mouth. I think after death the mouth can often hang open and be difficult to close. She would have had to bind it around her head to accomplish that. I hate to paint the picture, but the eyes remain open many times also and pehaps and open mouth and open eyes were just annoying to KC.
Just a thought.

ETA: I should add that I have not read all the information on the tape, so if it has already been concretely established in the reports that the tape was put on prior to death..then never mind

It has not been established beyond any doubt, however it is commonly accepted that decomposition begins at the moment of death and progresses moment by moment. So an experienced and professional ME such as Dr. G. would seem to be suggesting by this very language that the tape was applied before ANY decomposition began. She states prior to decomposition. We can only clear that one up by hearing it straight from Dr. G...later...so much later. :banghead:

There's no evidence or direct suggestion that the tape was applied before death, only the very ambiguous opinion of the M.E. that the tape was applied 'before decomposition'. That statement is open to interpretation and I expect Dr G. will be questioned very closely about what she actually meant. If she meant 'before decomposition started' then the defence will probably ask her whether she means before death or just after death and what evidence supports her intended meaning.

IMO, the broad nature of her statement means nothing more concrete than an opinion that the tape was applied before Caylee's body had decomposed, but the impreciseness of the statement is intentional IMO, because there was insufficient evidence to indicate when it was put on, only that it was applied some time before Caylee's hair came off and formed a mat under her skull, keeping the tape in situ. I expect there will also be much discussion about whether the tape had shrunk or moved, what areas of the face it's original placement covered and the implications of any expert testimony in that respect.

The medical examiner states prior to decomposition and decomposition begins at the moment of death so it would seem she was suggesting pre-death. We will have to wait and see on this one. :behindbar

 

[debbie0604]

Other thought, maybe the tape was just put on after death to close Caylee's mouth. I think after death the mouth can often hang open and be difficult to close. She would have had to bind it around her head to accomplish that. I hate to paint the picture, but the eyes remain open many times also and pehaps and open mouth and open eyes were just annoying to KC.
Just a thought.

ETA: I should add that I have not read all the information on the tape, so if it has already been concretely established in the reports that the tape was put on prior to death..then never mind

According to Dr. G., the tape was placed before decomposition and by what you're describing, it would take hours for the body to become in the manner of which you are describing. KC would have had to place the tape on the mouth AFTER decomposition had already started i.e. after rigor had already begun to set in etc. Dr. G. stated that the tape was placed BEFORE decomposition. So based on her statement, I'm thinking A - the tape was placed on Caylee's mouth immediately after death and if so - why? Not meaning to be graphic, but sometimes after death (depending on how a person died), if fluid escapes, it can escape from the mouth. Also, not only that, fluid can also escape from all orifices. She was bound in the face with multiple layers over the mouth and nose as if she were being "muffled" or "quieted" and "suffocated." The tape was so thick it lasted through the elements. And B - I'm thinking if she was bound prior to decomposition - which decomposition starts immediately after death - to me, that means that she was alive and she taped her mouth and she was suffocated by the tape. JMOO

 

[kageykaren]

I wasn't sure where to post this but thought here was the most appropriate for the most odd coincedence while silly sluething. I realize that what I found has no connection to the case. The members are the ones who have referred to ZFG by her initials I'm pretty sure. Meaning that when KC had to come up with a name for LE and for the nanny searches (or whoever in the family did the search) KC probably didn't have initials in mind to attach to a name. Sorry for such a long intro into my freeky finding! I was typing in some words that appeared to stand out from KC's verbal interviews and statements. When KC was asked the name of the nanny by law enforcement her verbal response with an air of confidence stated ZFG's name with such prevision, and precision. It seemed as if she phonetically rolled that name out so LE wouldn't ask again. Guess what? They didn't ask her that name again upon her arrest and tour of Sawgrass but referred to ZFG as babysitter or nanny. Please just indulge me with a laugh! I typed in the initials of ZFG for meaning and was shocked beyond belief for about a half hour till I realized we could probably make all kinds of connections in this case. What I found was an extremely educated man who writes scholarly published articles in teaching journals referencing for instance, Forensic Bone Morphometry, "Differentiating Human Bone from Animal Bone" AAhhh, yuk! This mans proper name is, ZFG Jaworski. You can see how my engine was reved! This case seems to have tentalcles reaching out to so many different subjects that you just have to scratch your head! Thanks for the listen! I feel so much better to release such a silly coincidence !

 

[Jolynna]

There's no evidence or direct suggestion that the tape was applied before death, only the very ambiguous opinion of the M.E. that the tape was applied 'before decomposition'. That statement is open to interpretation and I expect Dr G. will be questioned very closely about what she actually meant. If she meant 'before decomposition started' then the defence will probably ask her whether she means before death or just after death and what evidence supports her intended meaning.

IMO, the broad nature of her statement means nothing more concrete than an opinion that the tape was applied before Caylee's body had decomposed, but the impreciseness of the statement is intentional IMO, because there was insufficient evidence to indicate when it was put on, only that it was applied some time before Caylee's hair came off and formed a mat under her skull, keeping the tape in situ. I expect there will also be much discussion about whether the tape had shrunk or moved, what areas of the face it's original placement covered and the implications of any expert testimony in that respect.

BBM

That Dr. G determined the means of death to be homicide when Dr. G had the choice of undetermined (which leaves open the possibility of natural causes or accident), to me, says a lot.

So does the state going for the death penalty.

Dr. G didn't make her determination in a void. Neither did the state of Florida. Any and all possibilities were taken into account before they reached their conclusions. Those who make up the Florida Supreme Court didn't find the hypothesis of taping up a victim's face after death to be believable either.

In the Brent Huck vs Florida appeal, one of the grounds for appeal was that jurors erred because tape could have been put over the victims mouth, nose and eyes after death.

"Not so!", said the Florida Supreme Court:

More importantly, the assertion that Mr.Huck tapedthe victim's eyes and mouth shut after she died is not particularly reasonable. The only logical reason to tape her eyes and mouth shut would have been to prevent her from seeing, talking,screaming for help, or breathing while she was alive. There is NO logical or reasonable purpose for taping a person's eyes and mouth shut after she is dead.

http://www.denverda.org/DNA_Documents/Huck.pdf (Page 13)​

 

[JBean]

According to Dr. G., the tape was placed before decomposition and by what you're describing, it would take hours for the body to become in the manner of which you are describing. KC would have had to place the tape on the mouth AFTER decomposition had already started i.e. after rigor had already begun to set in etc. Dr. G. stated that the tape was placed BEFORE decomposition. So based on her statement, I'm thinking A - the tape was placed on Caylee's mouth immediately after death and if so - why? Not meaning to be graphic, but sometimes after death (depending on how a person died), if fluid escapes, it can escape from the mouth. Also, not only that, fluid can also escape from all orifices. She was bound in the face with multiple layers over the mouth and nose as if she were being "muffled" or "quieted" and "suffocated." The tape was so thick it lasted through the elements. And B - I'm thinking if she was bound prior to decomposition - which decomposition starts immediately after death - to me, that means that she was alive and she taped her mouth and she was suffocated by the tape. JMOO

The only thing I want to clarify is that it wouldn't take hours for the eyes and mouth to fall open after death.
In reality I don;t even think what I suggested is what happened. I was just throwing it out there.

 

[Jolynna]

The only thing I want to clarify is that it wouldn't take hours for the eyes and mouth to fall open after death.
In reality I don;t even think what I suggested is what happened. I was just throwing it out there.

What parent has EVER tried to close a gaping mouth with duct tape after a child died? You don't need to tape over the nose to close the mouth.