Autopsy Report - UCF Osteological Analysis-Duct Tape Info

[akashana]

I have always held a hope in my heart that somehow, some way, this could be explained (not excused) as a terrible accident followed by sheer panic and a frantic cover-up. I know now that is utter folly. JBean's example, where the 2 were doing illegal drugs and one OD'd after the other injected her and then staged an elaborate cover-up - I can understand how this could occur. Not that it would be the right thing to do, certainly, but there you would be, under the influence of narcotics, probably still in possession of the narcotics, and now a dead body? Perfect freak out recipe, IMHO. I can even go the distance and see how it is within the realm of possibility to have a similar reaction if one's child died as a result of an accident and negligence was an issue and the parent was scared. But here we have the duct tape. And it's not dangling loosely, but securing bones together from post mortem predation and decomposition. A freaking hurricane even. Not just duct tape either, but duct tape with a heart sticker on it, for crying out loud! Killers and kidnappers aren't going to do that . . . but a blackhearted mother who tired of childrearing responsibilities and longed for the freedoms she saw others her age enjoying DID!

 

[trixi491]

Does anyone know where the layers of duct tape come into play with the list of different pieces of duct tape submitted to the FBI for testing? I believe there were like 4 different pieces. I just figured one was on the mouth and the other were in the bag or nearby. Does this mean all these pieces were on her mouth?

 

[spqr]

:furious::furious:
There is NO words that can describe the rage, complete & total rage I feel.
I want someone to paint KC a very graphic picture of exactly what happened to her childs body after she threw it out like trash.
The needle is to kind. KC should suffer the same fate her daughter met. Duct tape her mouth, nose many many times over. Let her see your eyes as you do it, just like Caylee must have seen her mothers eyes. Then let her know as graphically as you can how the animals will come one by one to tear her apart, little by little. There is no punishment either on this earth or in hell that is enough for KC. I want her to suffer, I mean really really really suffer & I want her to suffer for years.

Bolded by me:

As for your suggestion...I volunteer to be the one to introduce her to that fate...

 

[trixi491]

If she was smart enough to stage a kidnapping, she would have been smart enough to go out and buy things to put Caylee in instead of using items from her own house. This girl is a straight up idiot and IMO if she wanted to stage a kidnapping and cover-up, could have done a LOT more to implicate a stranger than using things that point back to herself.

 

[scandi]

i agree with you...
and to think (in the beginning) i actually thought it might have been accidental death...!!!

well im thinking she chloroformed her, duct taped her and (as someone else said) let the duct tape do the dirty work of killing caylee....

it's getting clearer now...but im still trying to put some pieces together...ie. the cadaver dog hitting in the back yard??

A BIT GRAPHIC
Hi Trailerparkgirl, I saw a promo for NG this morning, which is probably yesterday's show, but I thought it interesting they have interpreted the AR to mean the duct tape was applied after death but before decomposition set in.

In doing some research just now on decomp and the timing of it, 1 week of the body being in air is equivilent to 2 weeks in water and 8 weeks in dirt. Caylee was in air I believe plus as a child her decomp rate was much faster than the norm. Beginning at 4 days for the norm, putrification sets in where the body shows visible signs of decomp with the changes in the color of the skin, marbeling and skin slippage occuring.

If you knock that 4 days down to half the time, or 2 days because of the heat {not sure exactly} I think Casey noticed the rapid changes and decided to apply the tape to make her look more normal and then sent her off with a plastic kiss.

The one thing that still plays in here tho is the anger displayed by putting multiple layers of tape on her head. I'm still wondering if that means the time gap was shorter after death than say 2 days.

Sorry for the graphics here but maybe it will help us understand what happened more fully. xox

 

[USARDOG]

A BIT GRAPHIC
Hi Trailerparkgirl, I saw a promo for NG this morning, which is probably yesterday's show, but I thought it interesting they have interpreted the AR to mean the duct tape was applied after death but before decomposition set in.

In doing some research just now on decomp and the timing of it, 1 week of the body being in air is equivilent to 2 weeks in water and 8 weeks in dirt. Caylee was in air I believe plus as a child her decomp rate was much faster than the norm. Beginning at 4 days for the norm, putrification sets in where the body shows visible signs of decomp with the changes in the color of the skin, marbeling and skin slippage occuring.

If you knock that 4 days down to half the time, or 2 days because of the heat {not sure exactly} I think Casey noticed the rapid changes and decided to apply the tape to make her look more normal and then sent her off with a plastic kiss.
The one thing that still plays in here tho is the anger displayed by putting multiple layers of tape on her head. I'm still wondering if that means the time gap was shorter after death than say 2 days.

Sorry for the graphics here but maybe it will help us understand what happened more fully. xox

bold by me.

This is interesting thinking... You are saying a 2.5 year old girl looks more "normal" with duct tape across her nose and mouth... Hmmm

The autopsy report clearly states that they can not determine if the tape was applied pre or post mortem. Given the other evidence it is not a big leap to think of Caylee being knocked out by Chloroform then sufficated with duct tape.

 

[scandi]

bold by me.

This is interesting thinking... You are saying a 2.5 year old girl looks more "normal" with duct tape across her nose and mouth... Hmmm

No, I was thinking maybe her jaw was starting to drop open and Casey didn't like that and wanted it held in place.

The possibility she kept the body in the back end of that car for days is such a disturbing thought in itself that who knows the real reason she would apply tape to the mouth. The only other reason I could think of is to forever quiet her child as she couldn't deal with crying outbursts, whining, etc anymore.

But I do think after putting the tape on and looking at her daughter she thought maybe putting the plastic kiss on the tape would lessen the guilt of having put the tape there.

 

[scandi]

bold by me.

This is interesting thinking... You are saying a 2.5 year old girl looks more "normal" with duct tape across her nose and mouth... Hmmm

The autopsy report clearly states that they can not determine if the tape was applied pre or post mortem. Given the other evidence it is not a big leap to think of Caylee being knocked out by Chloroform then sufficated with duct tape.

Hi USARDOG, Yes, what you say is the most logical about suffocating her with the duct tape.

I was running with the preface of the NG show that it was added post mortem and tried to find a reason for adding it after death which might be due to the rate of decomposition.

I don't think we will ever know the truth about this.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Although, I think if it were a "staging" attempt after death, what is the purpose of several pieces of duct tape? I'd think one would suffice.

Exactly what I was thinking.

I used to think the tape was applied postmortem but before decomposition had begun. I'm a bit read-up on the JonBenét Ramsey case, and bloody mucus on her face, under the tape, along with the tape being of ineffective size and questionable adhesion (and a perfect set of lip imprints, showing no sign of struggle whatsoever, along with lack of damage to the interior of the cheeks and tongue), IMO, proves the tape was added postmortem as staging, and had not been present on her face while she was being strangled to death.

I had pretty much assumed it was the same with Caylee - my theory was that Casey suffocated her to death on the night of the 15th, perhaps with a pillow or blanket, and applied the tape afterwards to stage a kidnapping scene...

But IMO, Casey is lazy and careless at best, and I would think, if the tape was applied to Caylee's face postmortem, it would only have been one strip, not several layers. Now my theory has changed - the fact that Casey cranked off several pieces of tape and plastered them over her baby's mouth - and dear lord, it sounds like her little nose as well - and over her hair seriously indicates that she felt she needed a good amount because she was concerned about making sure she had a tight seal...to be sure Caylee would asphyxiate to death.

I just hope she chloroformed Caylee first, and Caylee never had any idea her own mother was sealing her nose and mouth with that scary awful tape. Please let that be the case, for the sake of poor baby Caylee.

The sticker does nothing but prove that someone who has an obsession with hearts and uses them as some sort of signature is responsible for putting it there IMO. I suspect Casey is not a true sociopath, and did in fact, still have some sort of affection left in her cold, black heart for the child she didn't want as much as she wanted free of the burden of motherhood, out from under whatever hold her mother could exercise over her, and revenge on anyone who dared to love Caylee as much as or more than they love Casey. I think, I hope, she meant that sticker as a sign of that affection.

 

[USARDOG]

scandi, it seems to me the prosecution is going to present a very thrall case... The truth... As far as I can see it, it looks like KC killed Caylee... I doubt it was by accident. All points to deliberate homicide.

The defense... so far it consists of JB's childish outbursts, which does not speak well for the trial.

 

[Balthazar]

A kidnapper would not put a heart shaped sticker on the duct tape, do you think?

I don't think it's over thinking as far as the duct tape being the murder weapon. I thought it stated in the autopsy report that the duct tape was placed over the mouth and nose. I will go back and read this portion of the autopsy report.

There was no kidnapping scenario until after CA called the police. She wanted to leave town was her plan. She bought time with her stupid parents by manipulating them. Caylee is here and there for 31 days. She killed her daughter and then didn't know what to do. I think that's obvious because she left her in the trunk for so long.

Actually in John Saul's novel "Perfect Nightmare" the kidnapper does place a fake smile on the duct tape over the victims mouth. Usually writers get ideas like this from actual cases and plug them into their fictional books. So, yes, a kidnapper might put a heart shaped sticker on duct tape or, if Casey is guilty, she may have got that idea from John Saul's book which was in popular release in paperback last April -June.

 

[Devon]

I would imagine as an RSO he had some pretty well documented whoppers. I am just going to guess that honesty was not his strong suit.

Don't want to go OT and I am not even saying the cases are similar in any respect except one. This dude murdered a young woman, disposed of her body, covered his tracks and lied about it.He was able to get a 5 year involuntary manslaughter charge and sentence and that is just wrong.

I hope you don't think my was directed at your comments JBean - it was to indicate my feelings on KC's lies.

I think the problem is that in any case were someone tries to deny knowledge of, or involvement in another's death, and then later claims that it was an accident, the veil of suspicion is already drawn over them by their very act of evasiveness or deceit, but in some cases their actions really could have been driven by panic, or because of either some actual or just perceived/imagined culpability, or just because they feared they wouldn't be believed.

I haven't read up on the case you refer to, but would be interested to know whether it's the fact that he clearly lied that persuades you that he is guilty of murder, or if there is other clear evidence that it was unlikely to have been an accident.

How big a part does our emotional and psychological reaction to deceit, and society's shared abhorrence for liars, play in our evaluation of the evidence before us, and how much of our opinion forming is based on logical and impartial analysis and how much on societal or personal influence? I think it's impossible to be totally impartial and unaffected emotionally and still be called human, and that presents a major flaw in jury based justice systems IMO. Until we can try people before a panel of robots or by connecting them up to some sort of 'truth' extractor, then I think there will always be some convictions based more on our emotional responses than on the actual facts.

Hmm....well I seem to be warbling on here :talker: and drifting aimlessly into a state of totally OT musing. :bang:

Time to hit the sack I think, so you can delete my OT ramblings while I'm sending up the zzzzzzzz's and I'll be none the wiser in the morning! :waitasec: :hypno:

 

[Balthazar]

If she had wanted to stage a kidnapping she would have ditched the car with Caylee in it immediately, rather than driving around with her in it for a few days and then commenting to Amy about the poor squirrels. Plus, there would be no reason for the multiple layers of duct tape. All the movies and TV shows that I've seen with kidnappings, there is one piece of duct tape over the mouth to keep the victim quiet. Lots of tape over both nose and mouth to me means deliberate suffocation.

As for co-sleeping, I've never heard of a child over the age of 16 months dying because of it. At nearly three years old I don't believe for one second that Caylee could have just randomly suffocated in bed.

You are mistaken. There are more ways to die from co-sleeping than just the parent rolling over on the child. I personally know of one case where a 4 year old died when she somehow got her head caught between the mattress and headboard.

Look at this link for more information:

http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PREREL/PRHTML99/99175.html

 

[Shear22]

If she was smart enough to stage a kidnapping, she would have been smart enough to go out and buy things to put Caylee in instead of using items from her own house. This girl is a straight up idiot and IMO if she wanted to stage a kidnapping and cover-up, could have done a LOT more to implicate a stranger than using things that point back to herself.

I agree, and as far as I'm concerned if Caylee did die by accident and KC tried to cover it up by staging a kidnapping, she still deserves the death penalty for doing such a pathetic job of it.

 

[JBean]

I hope you don't think my was directed at your comments JBean - it was to indicate my feelings on KC's lies.

I think the problem is that in any case were someone tries to deny knowledge of, or involvement in another's death, and then later claims that it was an accident, the veil of suspicion is already drawn over them by their very act of evasiveness or deceit, but in some cases their actions really could have been driven by panic, or because of either some actual or just perceived/imagined culpability, or just because they feared they wouldn't be believed.

I haven't read up on the case you refer to, but would be interested to know whether it's the fact that he clearly lied that persuades you that he is guilty of murder, or if there is other clear evidence that it was unlikely to have been an accident.

How big a part does our emotional and psychological reaction to deceit, and society's shared abhorrence for liars, play in our evaluation of the evidence before us, and how much of our opinion forming is based on logical and impartial analysis and how much on societal or personal influence? I think it's impossible to be totally impartial and unaffected emotionally and still be called human, and that presents a major flaw in jury based justice systems IMO. Until we can try people before a panel of robots or by connecting them up to some sort of 'truth' extractor, then I think there will always be some convictions based more on our emotional responses than on the actual facts.

Hmm....well I seem to be warbling on here :talker: and drifting aimlessly into a state of totally OT musing. :bang:

Time to hit the sack I think, so you can delete my OT ramblings while I'm sending up the zzzzzzzz's and I'll be none the wiser in the morning! :waitasec: :hypno:

Truly great questions and excellent post Devon.
I linked the websleuths thread in my last post but here is a little background on Donna for the heck of it.
http://donnajou.com/Contactlaw.html
http://donnajou.com/


ETA: Your post also touches on a long time debate of using professional jurors. But that is for another thread

 

[Reznor]

Actually in John Saul's novel "Perfect Nightmare" the kidnapper does place a fake smile on the duct tape over the victims mouth. Usually writers get ideas like this from actual cases and plug them into their fictional books. So, yes, a kidnapper might put a heart shaped sticker on duct tape or, if Casey is guilty, she may have got that idea from John Saul's book which was in popular release in paperback last April -June.

Yep, it could have happened that way. Casey staging a kidnapping but I don't think so.

IMO She murdered her daughter. It was not an accident that she tried to cover up.

 

[TallyHo]

The autopsy proves that Casey did not stage a kidnapping. With the tape over Caylee's mouth and nose, the only thing she could have been trying to stage was a murder. And I don't think she did that either. :furious:

 

[snow_walker]

I am not in any doubt that Caylee's death was intentional. Just too many things point to it being a premeditated act, not an accident, not the least of which is the layered duct tape.
I wish I could believe the chloroform was used to put her to sleep first, I have tried hard to believe that, but I have quit trying. I dunno where it came from or what it was used for, for a fact, but at a guess I would say they were using it to try to clean the trunk. None was found in Caylee's hair, which would probably be the case if it had been used to subdue her first. and if it had been used to knock her out first, a pillow would have been a more logical death weapon.
The ONLY reason for the layers of duct tape is to suffocate, and the only reason anyone would use duct tape as a weapon is to say "SHUT UP! SHUT UP FOREVER!!" and I am finally going to face the fact that is what I believe happened, the truth is the truth, no matter how much I wish the truth were something less grim.

I also know that to subdue a child you need only place them on a bed, and straddle over their waist area, holding their arms with your knees and legs, then this leaves your hands free for (in this case) the duct tape, and the child would not be able to try to pull it off or resist whatever you might choose to do to them.
This was actually a form of non-violent intervention, out of date now, and no longer used as far as I know, but used to be used with a kid that was totally out of control and attacking people, only the hands of the adult were used to stroke their foreheads, as you talked or sang to them, until they felt calmer.

 

[USARDOG]

The autopsy proves that Casey did not stage a kidnapping. With the tape over Caylee's mouth and nose, the only thing she could have been trying to stage was a murder. And I don't think she did that either. :furious:

Agreed, the fake kidnap is now out the window with the revelation that there was duct tape over her little nose too... This is not a kidnap, its a murder.

 

[Shear22]

You are mistaken. There are more ways to die from co-sleeping than just the parent rolling over on the child. I personally know of one case where a 4 year old died when she somehow got her head caught between the mattress and headboard.

Look at this link for more information:

http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PREREL/PRHTML99/99175.html

Granted, but that's not a danger of co-sleeping. It's a danger of sleeping in a bed, period. Plus, if Caylee suffered a tragic accident such as that I can't imagine that KC would sit on death row rather than just come clean about it.