Autopsy

[raisincharlie]

I'm still trying to reconcile the injuries on her hands vs. the head wounds.

Sorry if this has been brought up before but what do you guys think about her being down on the ground (facing down) trying to protect the back of her head with her hands behind her head.

Seems like most of the injuries to her hands are on the left hand and the injuries (striations) seem to go the same direction as those to her head.

Lately, MY has been on my mind as I drift off to sleep, especially after seeing this autopsy report and seeing the rage involved in her murder.

It's also interesting to me that there are no wounds to her stomach area. No signs of being kicked there or beaten there. Interesting w/the pregnancy and all.

I wonder what kind of shoes he wore as I think he could have kicked her while she was down. Maybe that's how her teeth were knocked out. Some tennis shoes have striations on the toes.

Just messing around with what we have which isn't much! Seems like news in this case happens on Fridays, so I'm hoping for something to happen soon!

Taximom,

I have wondered about the wounds to the hands as well - they seem to be defensive in nature but IMO there is a significant difference between wounds received when one is defending versus when one is fighting. The wounds only to the back of the hands makes me think she was in duck and cover mode rather than fighting.

Overall and with my untrained sense of logic I am wondering why LE has said there was a struggle - these wounds on her hands don't scream struggle to me. The only thing that says struggle to me are the scratches on her neck and that is only because I think she made them.

Perhaps the scene in the room where she was found is more indicative or there are other signs in other areas of the home. I am wondering why Sheriff Harrison has said "there was a struggle and I'll stop at that".

Again - I have no training in interpreting these things but it doesn't fit in my mind based on the wounds. I go back to Pamela Vitale - there was no doubt she fought and fought hard. I am having trouble believing Michelle fought very much at all. JMO

ETA - since most of the wounds are on the left is it possible she was in a location in which the murderer could only access the left side of her body ?

 

[concernedperson]

Taximom,

I have wondered about the wounds to the hands as well - they seem to be defensive in nature but IMO there is a significant difference between wounds received when one is defending versus when one is fighting. The wounds only to the back of the hands makes me think she was in duck and cover mode rather than fighting.

Overall and with my untrained sense of logic I am wondering why LE has said there was a struggle - these wounds on her hands don't scream struggle to me. The only thing that says struggle to me are the scratches on her neck and that is only because I think she made them.

Perhaps the scene in the room where she was found is more indicative or there are other signs in other areas of the home. I am wondering why Sheriff Harrison has said "there was a struggle and I'll stop at that".

Again - I have no training in interpreting these things but it doesn't fit in my mind based on the wounds. I go back to Pamela Vitale - there was no doubt she fought and fought hard. I am having trouble believing Michelle fought very much at all. JMO

I do think there was a struggle and that it was Michelle trying to protect herself from being strangled. However, she would be no competition for an object being thrust, with great force, to the back of her head.

Head injuries make you see stars at the beginning and then you fade quickly into oblivion.

 

[raisincharlie]

I do think there was a struggle and that it was Michelle trying to protect herself from being strangled. However, she would be no competition for an object being thrust, with great force, to the back of her head.

Head injuries make you see stars at the beginning and then you fade quickly into oblivion.

I agree MY would struggle over the hand(s) about her throat - but that's it nothing else says struggle to me. What does it take 45 seconds for someone to pass out from being choked? The strangulation was not the cause of death so perhaps she was able to stop this portion but it was a very short struggle in my mind. I do not mean to belittle this struggle but IMO it doesn't fit with how the media has portrayed it nor does it coincide with the comment by the sheriff IMO.

 

[Samiya]

Blunt force injury to the left deltoid region (upper arm) which includes abrasion (scraping) and multiple contusions (bruises)
Blunt force injury to the extremities (hands, wrist area)...
Laceration of the left thumb
Abrasion of the right wrist
Multiple confluent contusions of both hands. (confluent = means that the bruises run together blending into one mass)

The autopsy shows otherwise apart from an attempt at removing the cause of 'strangulation' (fingernail marks on left side of neck). The wounds described above are 'defensive' wounds. They are obtained when a person uses their arms and hands to protect the areas of the body being subjected to violence. These 'defensive wounds' include the one on the deltoid area. They seem to be consistent with the defensive posture of both hands on the top of the head from the front of the head, this would bring the left deltoid region up to the base of the ear, but also leave space enough for the weapon to cause injuries on the left side of the head.

BFT5 can be from a blow direct to the face coming in on a slight right angle to Michelle, but as it is reported that the teeth were found near her head, it is more likely to have happened during the attack on the back of the head while she was face down on the floor.

BFT’s 2 & 3 may have occurred while Michelle was on her knees with one of the blows causing her to collapse sideways, hence the ‘twist’ in her body.

Note: The teeth weren’t reported as being Avulsed due to BFT 2 to the left mandible.

Note: Jason would be plenty strong enough, and considering the size of his hands, to have been able to carry out a complete manual strangulation no matter how much Chelle struggled. If he did this, and it was an attempt at strangulation only, the non completion may have been that he couldn't look her in the face during.

Note: Even a light weapon can cause significant injuries when wielded by someone with strength. There are enough injuries present to know what the outcome was meant to be and that the perp had no idea what it would take to achieve that end. She was probably still breathing when the perp left, although it would've been probably barely noticeable.

Sami

ETA: JMO

 

[otto]

Sounds to me like he was trying to add another element of Laci's case to his own if that was his intention. I definitely don't think this was planned as a bludgeoning since the strangulation was attempted, so yes, something definitely didn't go right for the "perp". I agree too with the rage that would've occurred if he'd tried to kill her in the accident and failed, then tried to strangle her, and failed.

I've had a really rough week so maybe I'm not thinking straight, but when you say it like that it almost seems funny. What happened to Michelle is by no means funny, but thinking about Jason as such a failure that he can't celebrate the gifts in his life, can't succeed in a career, can't do anything right ... and I made some long post a while ago about how I thought he was possibly a victim of an overbearing parent figure all his life ... this guy is just an all round loser. I can just see him trying to strangle Michelle and she successfully fights him off ... that could easily have tipped him over the edge but only because he would have faced his own pathetic existence.

 

[otto]

You know, I was also perplexed as there were no injuries to the palms of the hands, were there? So, I guess, after his strangling attempt failed, he must have hit her hard with something, knocking her to the ground. Then, she must have tried to cover her head as he beat her to death.

I sure hope that no news is good news in this case. I hope that the police are working silently but feverishly to bring the murderer to justice.

I was thinking that after the failed strangulation, he either grabbed something long, sharp and available, or he had a weapon with him. I think he took a couple of swings at her and she used her arms and hands to deflect the blows. I think it's instinctive to put up our hands with palm in to protect ourselves from someone swinging at us - that's just a guess though. She would have tried to run at the same time and then he could have hit her in the side of the head. That would have stunned her and he then could have had the advantage in the attack. I think after he got the advantage, he kept hitting her, she fell, she probably kept her hands in place to protect her head but then it was too late.

 

[otto]

I do think there was a struggle and that it was Michelle trying to protect herself from being strangled. However, she would be no competition for an object being thrust, with great force, to the back of her head.

Head injuries make you see stars at the beginning and then you fade quickly into oblivion.

You know what's bothering me about the autopsy is that there is bruising on the hands. Bruising can only happen while the blood is still running, or am I mistaken? Would there be bruises if Michelle died right away? Or would bruises only form if she was fatally injured and lay there for several hours bleeding.

 

[jilly]

Hi Sami!! Can you please tell me what the word "avulsion" means.

Is is simply a normal term for teeth being knocked out no matter how?I'm just wondering if there is a difference between teeth knocked out as a result of being hit in the back of the head or jaw than there is if you were punched in the mouth.

Also, this question about a struggle. I remember Amanda Lamb (I think) reporting that LE removed a piece of the wall, maybe gyprock from the front hall. Any comments about this anyone?

 

[Taximom]

You know what's bothering me about the autopsy is that there is bruising on the hands. Bruising can only happen while the blood is still running, or am I mistaken? Would there be bruises if Michelle died right away? Or would bruises only form if she was fatally injured and lay there for several hours bleeding.

I think she bled out slowly and was hopefully unconscious the whole time.

I keep thinking of Cassidy's little footprints in blood. Some of it had to be wet still when she got up, or the carpet (is there carpet?) was still soaked w/blood. Or she could have been up during (or right after) the struggle and stayed up all night and made the tracks while the blood was still fresh.

 

[otto]

Blunt force injury to the left deltoid region (upper arm) which includes abrasion (scraping) and multiple contusions (bruises)
Blunt force injury to the extremities (hands, wrist area)...
Laceration of the left thumb
Abrasion of the right wrist
Multiple confluent contusions of both hands. (confluent = means that the bruises run together blending into one mass)

The autopsy shows otherwise apart from an attempt at removing the cause of 'strangulation' (fingernail marks on left side of neck). The wounds described above are 'defensive' wounds. They are obtained when a person uses their arms and hands to protect the areas of the body being subjected to violence. These 'defensive wounds' include the one on the deltoid area. They seem to be consistent with the defensive posture of both hands on the top of the head from the front of the head, this would bring the left deltoid region up to the base of the ear, but also leave space enough for the weapon to cause injuries on the left side of the head.

BFT5 can be from a blow direct to the face coming in on a slight right angle to Michelle, but as it is reported that the teeth were found near her head, it is more likely to have happened during the attack on the back of the head while she was face down on the floor.

BFT’s 2 & 3 may have occurred while Michelle was on her knees with one of the blows causing her to collapse sideways, hence the ‘twist’ in her body.

Note: The teeth weren’t reported as being Avulsed due to BFT 2 to the left mandible.

Note: Jason would be plenty strong enough, and considering the size of his hands, to have been able to carry out a complete manual strangulation no matter how much Chelle struggled. If he did this, and it was an attempt at strangulation only, the non completion may have been that he couldn't look her in the face during.

Note: Even a light weapon can cause significant injuries when wielded by someone with strength. There are enough injuries present to know what the outcome was meant to be and that the perp had no idea what it would take to achieve that end. She was probably still breathing when the perp left, although it would've been probably barely noticeable.

Sami

ETA: JMO

Thanks for that clarification and it's consistent with what I'm thinking. The only other point I really wonder is whether he thought he could strangle her and make her disappear, but resorted to a vicious beating because he couldn't complete the strangulation. If that's the case, then he probably made a lot of mistakes by having to change the plan ... more chances of him being successfully prosecuted.

 

[Samiya]

Hi Sami!! Can you please tell me what the word "avulsion" means.

Is is simply a normal term for teeth being knocked out no matter how?I'm just wondering if there is a difference between teeth knocked out as a result of being hit in the back of the head or jaw than there is if you were punched in the mouth.

Also, this question about a struggle. I remember Amanda Lamb (I think) reporting that LE removed a piece of the wall, maybe gyprock from the front hall. Any comments about this anyone?

Hi Jilly,

Avulsion means 'tearing away'. There would be significant damage to the gums.

Sami

 

[jilly]

Thanks for that clarification and it's consistent with what I'm thinking. The only other point I really wonder is whether he thought he could strangle her and make her disappear, but resorted to a vicious beating because he couldn't complete the strangulation. If that's the case, then he probably made a lot of mistakes by having to change the plan ... more chances of him being successfully prosecuted.

Hi Otto! Some are thinking since there are only scratches to the left side of MYs neck that maybe he held her with one hand while he beat with the other fwiw.

 

[concernedperson]

Hi Jilly,

Avulsion means 'tearing away'. There would be significant damage to the gums.

Sami

I am beginning to think you are a ME and I missed it. You sure have the terminology down pat. Or you? None of my business just curious.

 

[jilly]

I am beginning to think you are a ME and I missed it. You sure have the terminology down pat. Or you? None of my business just curious.

Since Sami's not around, I'd answer for you but I don't know for sure either. Kind of got the same impression as you that's why I asked.

 

[Samiya]

Hi Sami!! I'm just wondering if there is a difference between teeth knocked out as a result of being hit in the back of the head or jaw than there is if you were punched in the mouth.

This question of yours needs an answer....good question.

Yes, there is a difference. Multiple underlaying complex fractures of the mandibular. Complex fractures are exactly that "complex" meaning multitudes of cross-sectioning fracture paths and includes shattering as opposed to linear or branching. For an even wider 'view' "compound fractures" are fractures where the fractured (broken) bones comes up through the skin. Underlaying means that the fractures are under the outer surface wound.

One punch or a blow with a heavy weapon to the face can create fracture/s and teeth to be knocked inwards. Any avulsed teeth are usually 'spat out' by the victim or 'dribbled out' in reflex, sometimes swallowed. The chances of Michelle's head ending up where she stood are slim. The chances of her teeth landing in a 'cluster' if spat out are even slimmer. Even if Michelle had been kneeling and the blow to the front of her face occured then, her head would still not end up in the spot where her teeth would have come out had she spit or dribbled them out.

So, being that the teeth were 'near victims head', this injury is a secondary injury occurring during the injuries to the back of the head. It was caused by the force of the front of the face against the floor during the beating occurring on the back of the head.

All said, I am going to have at least a 10 minute break.

Jilly, I do think that it was a one handed hold because of the injuries stated. I don't believe that Michelle would 'stand by' and watch her attacker pick up or 'pull out' a weapon to hit her with. I believe that she would have in the least either jumped on him or ran had she been free to do so. I also believe that the perp is right handed.

Sami

ETA CP & Jilly,

LOL you do know that curiosity killed the cat? hehehe love that song

Hugs

 

[otto]

Hi Otto! Some are thinking since there are only scratches to the left side of MYs neck that maybe he held her with one hand while he beat with the other fwiw.

I think that it would be really hard to hold onto someone's neck with one hand and beat them with a weapon in the other. To understand the relationship between Jason with big hands and Michelle, 5'6", we could imagine an adult and a child. If the child is flailing around, struggling to get away, would it be possible to hold them by the the neck with one hand? Perhaps, but I'm not sure I could do it. I think the adult human body is strong enough to escape a one hand grasped around the neck, if only by pulling in the direction where the fingers don't meet.

Ergonomics charts say that with 50 %-ile men at 6'9", the palm to fingertip length is 7.5 inches. Let's estimate a bit (don't feel like looking for the humanscale 1-9 charts) and say that even at 6'4", the palm-fingertip length is probably no more than 9 inches. There isn't too much data about neck circumference on females, but if we think about men's shirts and 14", we might be fairly close. Even at 12 inches, which is a really tiny neck, could a man really put his hand entirely around the neck of a 5'6" woman and hold her?

 

[panthera]

I've had a really rough week so maybe I'm not thinking straight, but when you say it like that it almost seems funny. What happened to Michelle is by no means funny, but thinking about Jason as such a failure that he can't celebrate the gifts in his life, can't succeed in a career, can't do anything right ... and I made some long post a while ago about how I thought he was possibly a victim of an overbearing parent figure all his life ... this guy is just an all round loser. I can just see him trying to strangle Michelle and she successfully fights him off ... that could easily have tipped him over the edge but only because he would have faced his own pathetic existence.

I know what you're saying otto and that's the same impression I got of him. Adding in the car accident to the murder and assuming he committed the murder, he would've failed in his first attempt at killing her and moved to "plan B" which also failed if he'd planned on her dying from strangulation. Sociopath best fits as a description, imo.

 

[panthera]

I think that it would be really hard to hold onto someone's neck with one hand and beat them with a weapon in the other. To understand the relationship between Jason with big hands and Michelle, 5'6", we could imagine an adult and a child. If the child is flailing around, struggling to get away, would it be possible to hold them by the the neck with one hand? Perhaps, but I'm not sure I could do it. I think the adult human body is strong enough to escape a one hand grasped around the neck, if only by pulling in the direction where the fingers don't meet.

Sorry if it's already been posted somewhere here, but what is the height and weight of Jason, and does anyone know if he regularly worked out at a gym?

 

[otto]

Sorry if it's already been posted somewhere here, but what is the height and weight of Jason, and does anyone know if he regularly worked out at a gym?

I was just wondering about the same thing. I added to my earlier post with some ergonomic info and would add to it and actually do a complete analysis of hand span if we knew his height. I was guessing that he was about 6'2", but that's a complete guess. If we have his height, we can determine the hand span and we already have enough info on Michelle to know her neck circumference.

 

[panthera]

I was just wondering about the same thing. I added to my earlier post with some ergonomic info and would add to it and actually do a complete analysis of hand span if we knew his height. I was guessing that he was about 6'2", but that's a complete guess. If we have his height, we can determine the hand span and we already have enough info on Michelle to know her neck circumference.

I'm quite interested in what you're trying to figure out. I'm about Michelle's size but my husband who's 6' wouldn't be able to get his hand completely around my neck and he has slender hands with long fingers. Wish we had a pic of Jason's hands since he may be tall but could have short, fat hands~ know what I mean?