Autopsy

[concernedperson]

I'm quite interested in what you're trying to figure out. I'm about Michelle's size but my husband who's 6' wouldn't be able to get his hand completely around my neck and he has slender hands with long fingers. Wish we had a pic of Jason's hands since he may be tall but could have short, fat hands~ know what I mean?

I saw a pic and he has long skinny hands.It had nothing to do with his strength it had to do with his weapon and the velocity behind it. He is a pitiful excuse for a husband and father and son. JMO.

 

[otto]

I'm quite interested in what you're trying to figure out. I'm about Michelle's size but my husband who's 6' wouldn't be able to get his hand completely around my neck and he has slender hands with long fingers. Wish we had a pic of Jason's hands since he may be tall but could have short, fat hands~ know what I mean?

The theory is that the length from finger tip to finger tip is equal to the distance from the top of your head to the bottom of your feet. The length of the hand is directly proportional to height, unless there is something irregular going on ... but the average, 50th percentile person has those dimensions.

I'm having trouble finding a good online site with all the info, but here's an example: http://bergeron.stores.yahoo.net/50peradmanfr.html and another http://bergeron.stores.yahoo.net/50peradmalsi.html for males and here's females: http://bergeron.stores.yahoo.net/50peradmalsi.html (height 6'4")

 

[jilly]

So, being that the teeth were 'near victims head', this injury is a secondary injury occurring during the injuries to the back of the head. It was caused by the force of the front of the face against the floor during the beating occurring on the back of the head.

All said, I am going to have at least a 10 minute break.

Jilly, I do think that it was a one handed hold because of the injuries stated. I don't believe that Michelle would 'stand by' and watch her attacker pick up or 'pull out' a weapon to hit her with. I believe that she would have in the least either jumped on him or ran had she been free to do so. I also believe that the perp is right handed.

Sami

Oh my goodness! This is horrible. :furious:

Thank you Sami for taking the time to explain this. Very interesting indeed.

As far as the strangling, from the injuries I have to agree but I'm having a hard time visualizing it because his hand is so big I think it could wrap around her entire neck.

I keep going back to the pic RC posted:http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1175401/

 

[panthera]

I saw a pic and he has long skinny hands.It had nothing to do with his strength it had to do with his weapon and the velocity behind it. He is a pitiful excuse for a husband and father and son. JMO.

I know and I have the same opinion of him, but I was thinking of the size of his hands in relation to strangling Michelle and her being able to grab his hand off her neck.

 

[Taximom]

If my husband was sitting on me with his left hand around my neck, he would be able to pound me quite easily with me only able to protect my head with my hands and arms. (Ack, the thought.)

I'm torn between JY doing that, or him being behind her while she's crouched down (face-down) with her right side being against the bed, dresser or wall, since that side has the least damage.

 

[raisincharlie]

<snip>

So, being that the teeth were 'near victims head', this injury is a secondary injury occurring during the injuries to the back of the head. It was caused by the force of the front of the face against the floor during the beating occurring on the back of the head.

All said, I am going to have at least a 10 minute break.

Jilly, I do think that it was a one handed hold because of the injuries stated. I don't believe that Michelle would 'stand by' and watch her attacker pick up or 'pull out' a weapon to hit her with. I believe that she would have in the least either jumped on him or ran had she been free to do so. I also believe that the perp is right handed.

Sami

ETA CP & Jilly,

LOL you do know that curiosity killed the cat? hehehe love that song

Hugs

Sami,

Please bear with me here - if MY is face down on the floor and the blows to the back of her head were strong enough to knock her teeth out - would there not be abrasions to her face if the surface was carpeted. Would there not be some damage to the nose and possible bruising? Having trouble picturing this. No argument as this is over my head.

This type of injury was present in the Vitale case - she was face down on the floor while her head received several blows (more than 20) - there was considerable abrading of the face from carpeting and nasal damage - but perhaps this would have more to do with the surface area of the weapon used for striking?

 

[panthera]

The theory is that the length from finger tip to finger tip is equal to the distance from the top of your head to the bottom of your feet. The length of the hand is directly proportional to height, unless there is something irregular going on ... but the average, 50th percentile person has those dimensions.

I'm having trouble finding a good online site with all the info, but here's an example: http://bergeron.stores.yahoo.net/50peradmanfr.html and another http://bergeron.stores.yahoo.net/50peradmalsi.html for males and here's females: http://bergeron.stores.yahoo.net/50peradmalsi.html (height 6'4")

Interesting! Thanks for finding those links and they are useful in trying to figure this out.

 

[jilly]

If my husband was sitting on me with his left hand around my neck, he would be able to pound me quite easily with me only able to protect my head with my hands and arms. (Ack, the thought.)

I'm torn between JY doing that, or him being behind her while she's crouched down (face-down) with her right side being against the bed, dresser or wall, since that side has the least damage.

The marks on her neck are thought to be those of fingernails possibly MYs. If someone has their left hand on my throat & is pounding me with a flashlight, I don't think I'd be trying to get his hand off - I think I'd be trying to protect my head (as you say). So maybe he was trying to strangle her.

LE said there was a struggle here so I think during this beating, Michelle was in a combination of positions. At some point she was on the bed (blood on bed). Maybe he was on top of her beating the back of her head. I think she ended up on the floor on her side trying to protect her baby and holding her head. I really don't know.

 

[panthera]

The marks on her neck are thought to be those of fingernails possibly MYs. If someone has their left hand on my throat & is pounding me with a flashlight, I don't think I'd be trying to get his hand off - I think I'd be trying to protect my head (as you say). So maybe he was trying to strangle her.

LE said there was a struggle here so I think during this beating, Michelle was in a combination of positions. At some point she was on the bed (blood on bed). Maybe he was on top of her beating the back of her head. I think she ended up on the floor on her side trying to protect her baby and holding her head. I really don't know.

I think it started on the bed also with him strangling her, and then she may have fallen to the floor and maybe tried to crawl away and not knowing how far she was from the bed when she was found, but her tooth part was found under it. There was blood on a lamp which does suggest that the struggle started on the bed, in addition to the blood there.

 

[jilly]

I think it started on the bed also with him strangling her, and then she may have fallen to the floor and maybe tried to crawl away and not knowing how far she was from the bed when she was found, but her tooth part was found under it. There was blood on a lamp which does suggest that the struggle started on the bed, in addition to the blood there.

Yup. I think so too. How about the mouth injuries? Do you think he punched her in the mouth first? That might indicate an argument....I'm still not convinced about her sleeping in those clothes so I'm thinking that she was awake when he came in. On the otherhand, I can't see her wanting to argue in the bedroom across from Cassidy.

ETA - If she was beaten on the bed, then this might answer RCs question?

 

[panthera]

Yup. I think so too. How about the mouth injuries? Do you think he punched her in the mouth first? That might indicate an argument....I'm still not convinced about her sleeping in those clothes so I'm thinking that she was awake when he came in. On the otherhand, I can't see her wanting to argue in the bedroom across from Cassidy.

ETA - If she was beaten on the bed, then this might answer RCs question?

The force of the blows to the head (with the weapon) would knock her teeth out so I hadn't thought much about him punching her in the face with his fist. I'd like to know if the bed was found turned down or not, which would give us more of an idea if she'd already gone to bed. I still don't see her sleeping in the black pants, but at the same time I can't see her being totally awake when he entered the room since the first thing seems to be an attempted strangulation.

 

[otto]

Yup. I think so too. How about the mouth injuries? Do you think he punched her in the mouth first? That might indicate an argument....I'm still not convinced about her sleeping in those clothes so I'm thinking that she was awake when he came in. On the otherhand, I can't see her wanting to argue in the bedroom across from Cassidy.

ETA - If she was beaten on the bed, then this might answer RCs question?

She has the cuts on her face near her mouth that look worse than a regular cut lip or bruise, so I think he hit her in the face with some kind of weapon.

I don't think she was sleeping in those clothes either ... black pants and a zip up hoodie would be really uncomfortable for sleeping in without being pregnant. Maybe she was lying on the bed reading when he came home unexpectedly.

 

[jilly]

The force of the blows to the head (with the weapon) would knock her teeth out so I hadn't thought much about him punching her in the face with his fist. I'd like to know if the bed was found turned down or not, which would give us more of an idea if she'd already gone to bed. I still don't see her sleeping in the black pants, but at the same time I can't see her being totally awake when he entered the room since the first thing seems to be an attempted strangulation.

Right! According to the AR - the avulsion of teeth resulted from multiple blunt force injuries to the head. Oh! - just reading the AR -"There is injury to he neck consistent with manual strangulation". So there we go!

I'm thinking that because of the injuries to her lips that she might have been punched in the mouth to begin with because of something she might have said.

 

[Samiya]

Sami,

Please bear with me here - if MY is face down on the floor and the blows to the back of her head were strong enough to knock her teeth out - would there not be abrasions to her face if the surface was carpeted. Would there not be some damage to the nose and possible bruising? Having trouble picturing this. No argument as this is over my head.

This type of injury was present in the Vitale case - she was face down on the floor while her head received several blows (more than 20) - there was considerable abrading of the face from carpeting and nasal damage - but perhaps this would have more to do with the surface area of the weapon used for striking?

Hey hon,

It would depend on both the weapon (force used as well as angles used) and the position her head was in and how much her head moved. If her face was at a slight angle to the right and resting mostly on the jaw itself or even slightly angled resting partially against her right upper arm her nasal passage (cartiledge and bone) and other areas of her face could be saved from injury.

I have no idea if the Youngs bedroom was carpetted, but carpet fibres do tend to create more abrasions due to friction. Unfortunatley also, the ME in this case has left out any other particulars of bruising in the diagram to that area of the face. He is drawn in only the two lacerations and none of that areas bruising, which to me is a real pain in the butt as it doesn't give a very good diagnostic 'view' of the injury in regards to the bruising in that area, unless the bruising was internal.

But as I had in my first post it was JMO and as I've said before, it is hard to 'read' an autopsy report unless you are the one who wrote it. And I'll add that even harder is to work out a crime scene you can't look at.

The good thing is that while I was wary of posting any info, it has created good discussion...and....this is why I love WS

Hugs
Sami
(ok you've peaked my interest in Pam Vitale. I don't want to sound 'off' but is an AR available from that case?)

 

[jilly]

She has the cuts on her face near her mouth that look worse than a regular cut lip or bruise, so I think he hit her in the face with some kind of weapon.

I don't think she was sleeping in those clothes either ... black pants and a zip up hoodie would be really uncomfortable for sleeping in without being pregnant. Maybe she was lying on the bed reading when he came home unexpectedly.

Pg 9 of the AR (diagram) show that there are lacerations directly to the upper & lower lip.

"BLUNT FORCE INJURY #5:
Blunt force injury #5 consists of bruising, swelling and two lacerations to the lips. There is a laceration of both the upper lip and lower lip, both surrounded by extensive bruising. There are multiple underlying complex mandibular fractures. There are multiple avulsed teeth as well."

I think it could be either a fist or a weapon.

 

[raisincharlie]

Hey hon,

<snip>
The good thing is that while I was wary of posting any info, it has created good discussion...and....this is why I love WS

Hugs
Sami
(ok you've peaked my interest in Pam Vitale. I don't want to sound 'off' but is an AR available from that case?)

Thanks Sami - as I said this is over my head so I have questions.

As to Vitale - I have not seen that autopsy linked to the web except on a crazy person's website which I can't now remember. This is the one that my SIL picked up for me in CA - when I get back home I'll see if I can still find it, might be able to scan it in and get it to you. I will just say there was no place on that woman's body that wasn't harmed. Her killer was a 16 year old boy, much smaller than her, who used everything from a flower pot to crown molding, to a flashlight, and although the actual bludgeoning weapon was never found - the DA alluded to and the ME concurred - a rock, limestone rock to be specific. This is why I questioned the surface area of the weapon.

 

[Samiya]

Thanks Sami - as I said this is over my head so I have questions.

As to Vitale - I have not seen that autopsy linked to the web except on a crazy person's website which I can't now remember. This is the one that my SIL picked up for me in CA - when I get back home I'll see if I can still find it, might be able to scan it in and get it to you. I will just say there was no place on that woman's body that wasn't harmed. Her killer was a 16 year old boy, much smaller than her, who used everything from a flower pot to crown molding, to a flashlight, and although the actual bludgeoning weapon was never found - the DA alluded to and the ME concurred - a rock, limestone rock to be specific. This is why I questioned the surface area of the weapon.

No problemo

And I'll add this too. A 'double injury' in regards to the mouth area can also be a hit directly to the mouth and subsequesent further fracturing from the blows to the back of the head.

I am enjoying reading the board now. Everyone has great things to say and all are possible....and if I wanted a team of PI's, you guys and gals'd be them

RC, I found a copy of the report online. I'm slowly going through and have to say I am impressed so far (just in the first 4 pages!) as the amount of paperwork there is. Michelle's AR seems very basic for a MAR (Murder Autopsy Report) compared to Pam's and ones here that are done.

I see Hurricane JTF has hit CTV again, lol. Might pop over and ask one question of the insiders and see if I can get an answer to it.

Hugs
Sami

 

[raisincharlie]

No problemo

And I'll add this too. A 'double injury' in regards to the mouth area can also be a hit directly to the mouth and subsequesent further fracturing from the blows to the back of the head.

I am enjoying reading the board now. Everyone has great things to say and all are possible....and if I wanted a team of PI's, you guys and gals'd be them

RC, I found a copy of the report online. I'm slowly going through and have to say I am impressed so far (just in the first 4 pages!) as the amount of paperwork there is. Michelle's AR seems very basic for a MAR (Murder Autopsy Report) compared to Pam's and ones here that are done.

I see Hurricane JTF has hit CTV again, lol. Might pop over and ask one question of the insiders and see if I can get an answer to it.

Hugs
Sami

That didn't take you long to find ! I was going to refer you to page 3 of this forum:

http://websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=94

Many of the details are laid out there but since you have the report you will soon learn how incredibly intense it is. Absolutely sickening and subhuman what that boy did.

 

[raisincharlie]

No problemo

And I'll add this too. A 'double injury' in regards to the mouth area can also be a hit directly to the mouth and subsequesent further fracturing from the blows to the back of the head.

I am enjoying reading the board now. Everyone has great things to say and all are possible....and if I wanted a team of PI's, you guys and gals'd be them

RC, I found a copy of the report online. I'm slowly going through and have to say I am impressed so far (just in the first 4 pages!) as the amount of paperwork there is. Michelle's AR seems very basic for a MAR (Murder Autopsy Report) compared to Pam's and ones here that are done.

I see Hurricane JTF has hit CTV again, lol. Might pop over and ask one question of the insiders and see if I can get an answer to it.

Hugs
Sami

Makes you wonder why it took them 2 and a half months to complete it doesn't it ? I suspect thatthere are lots of attachments that have not and will not be released, at least publically. JMO

 

[Samiya]

That didn't take you long to find !

RC,

Just finished reading....All I will say is I can certainly understand your reaction a while back when you first mentioned Pam's AR (don't ask where that post is, but I remember you saying someone got it for you) so hugs for you too.

Sami