awaiting sentencing phase

[jay-jay]

OP’s “terror” was 100% irrational.

~rsbm~

Absolutely, and therefore his story cannot possibly be true. I would maybe have been able to believe him/his version more if the 'incident' had happened downstairs, and while he was upstairs he had heard a noise downstairs and gone tip-toeing down but the very fact that his bedroom and en-suite is such a tiny area in just one small part of the house, it's just absolutely ridiculous to me that Pistorius would ever just automatically assume that the noise he supposedly heard would've been that of an intruder, instead of the other person who is sharing that tiny space with you.

It. Never. Happened.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Something I would like to ask of those who believe that this was all just one horrible, tragic accident .. just hypothetically speaking, say this whole crime scene was replicated, and a couple did actually have a domestic fight, and the man ended up shooting his girlfriend dead through a toilet door, could they please tell me what they believe the perpetrator of that crime would do/say upon the arrival of those arriving at the scene (security guards, neighbours, police, etc, etc)? Do they believe that someone who had committed a crime like that would immediately own up to the murder of their girlfriend, and if the answer to that is 'No' (and it has to be 'No' because no murderer is ever going to admit to being the murder, they will come up with all sorts of lies and excuses in order to get themselves off the hook .. they really do not want to spend 25 years in jail!) .. then why do they not believe that is what Pistorius is most likely to have done? It doesn't make any sense to me that those who believe Pistorius's account don't seem to be able to understand what a murderer is more likely to do, and something they are never going to do before their trial is admit the truth!

I find it infuriating that anyone, and most importantly JMasipa, believes that a person who murders can't come up with a story so quick. My lawd, we're in the age of instant everything, a liar will instantly have an excuse, OP was quick to get his friend to take the blame at Tasha's.

The 'intruder' story is as old as the hills. Darlie Routier says an intruder stabbed her boys, Dr Jeffery MacDonald said intruders killed his pregnant wife and two daughters, and these are just the well known cases, there are many others.

Drives me :nuts:

 

[jay-jay]

And there's a recent photo of him goofing around with his brother, Prime, on Carl's twitter:

https://twitter.com/carlpistorius/status/515853128747728897

He's the one wearing the sleep eye-mask with the Boom! explosion graphic on it! :facepalm:

Not sure I'd want to be sleeping at night in that if I was in the Pistorius household.

Oh right, so they actually think this is funny then .. right 'o.

What a family.

 

[jimmy73]

One irrational line of reasoning in the judgment I haven't seen mentioned much: Basically, Masipa says how could he have come up with his version at the bail application before he was privy to the state evidence?

This makes no sense to me. He didn't offer a detailed alibi defence which the state evidence confirmed only someone genuinely where he said he was at the time would know. He was at the crime scene and the only living eyewitness and he knew it.

The only thing he wouldn't know is what any earwitnesses might have heard. And guess what - we had earwitnesses who heard an argument beforehand, and who heard a woman screaming for her life before shots or bangs. His bail application mentioned exactly when he screamed something, when he cried something out loud, and totally missing is any mention of screaming between the gunshots and the bat strikes. He invented this after he was privy to the state evidence, right down to him remembering clearly (in the time he couldn't remember anything else clearly of course) that his last scream was as he hit the last bat strike. Forget tailoring, he donned a lycra suit and Masipa marvelled at the perfect fit.

He was also caught out by the duvet/jeans/bloodsplatter - state evidence which disproves his attempted explanation for the intruder mistake. As well as "the fan"/two fans - because he didn't do anything with the fans and forgot the scene. And he never foresaw an estimated meal time by the pathologist - and got caught out by his 'normal evening then bedtime' picture.

As some have speculated, Pistorius may have seen/heard the Stipps talking to security from the window. This could definitely have influenced his behavior at the scene and his bailed statement. ie. I know someone heard /saw, I need to throw in some of the real events and not just make it all up.

 

[jay-jay]

I find it infuriating that anyone, and most importantly JMasipa, believes that a person who murders can't come up with a story so quick. My lawd, we're in the age of instant everything, a liar will instantly have an excuse, OP was quick to get his friend to take the blame at Tasha's.

The 'intruder' story is as old as the hills. Darlie Routier says an intruder stabbed her boys, Dr Jeffery MacDonald said intruders killed his pregnant wife and two daughters, and these are just the well known cases, there are many others.

Drives me :nuts:

It is, isn't it. Does Judge Masipa live in a cave or sommat, she does not seem to have much knowledge of the outside world as far as I can make out.

 

[homegirl]

My guess is that it went like this.
Micki P knew him through work as a former colleague.
He said to OP "I know your aunt" or "I'm a friend of your aunt". Reporters twisted this into "family friend".
People then picked up on the word "family" and on it went, Chinese Whispers style.

If I understand correctly, he worked with the police dept. and was trusted by Nel advise him on OP's behavior. I think he may have been playing good cop with OP, trying to gain his trust and to get him to talk.

 

[Cherwell]

OP: I was taken to the foyer of the reception area of my home. An officer, Mr. Labuschagne came up to me and that he was a friend of my family and that he would look after me.

http://news.sky.com/story/1239408/oscar-pistorius-trial-stenographer-updates

There you are then. Definitely doesn't sound like he's a relative.

Allowing for the facts that OP was paraphrasing and it's also come through a reporter, I bet GL actually said "friend of your aunt" rather than "family". It sounds more natural given that he was the aunt's work colleague.

 

[Angela Carr]

Poor poor reeva, she screamed for someone to help her, and her screams have now been drowned out by masipas verdict. But we at websleuthers heard her screams and know exactly why she was screaming, we will never forget her, beautiful Reeva. RIP

 

[foxbluff]

<snipped for subj focus> OP: I was taken to the foyer of the reception area of my home. An officer, Mr. Labuschagne came up to me and that he was a friend of my family and that he would look after me.

OP: At that stage Col. Van Rensburg said because I was the only person in the house at the time, they were going to arrest me. I walked with Mr. Labuschagne to the vehicle.

OP: As we were leaving the estate, I was told that there was a lot of media outside the estate and that I must put my head down and he would tell me when I could raise my head.
<snipped for subj focus>

Way to go PrimeSus !! I love it when sleuths solve puzzles in one day !!

Like @Cher said, the officer would have introduced himself to OP as a friend of his Aunt Mikki. Smart thing to do... makes for a nice ice breaker and, I should think, would make OP more comfortable and trustful of him.

I'm now no longer worried about a possible conflict of interest in having this officer assist the State during trial, etc. Ty.

 

[Angela Carr]

Oh for a fly on the wall so we could find out exactly what happen that night, it will for sure find OP a moody highly strung liar and a dangerous man.

 

[jay-jay]

Oh for a fly on the wall so we could find out exactly what happen that night, it will for sure find OP a moody highly strung liar and a dangerous man.

Yup, that's why he needs a custodial sentence, to remove him from society and protect people (especially future girlfriends) from what might happen to them if they come into contact with him upset him.

 

[jay-jay]

Poor poor reeva, she screamed for someone to help her, and her screams have now been drowned out by masipas verdict. But we at websleuthers heard her screams and know exactly why she was screaming, we will never forget her, beautiful Reeva. RIP

.. beautifully put, Angela.

I can't get over the whole irony of this .. Reeva, so strongly and vocally against domestic violence, and yet she became a victim herself, in the most horrific way you could ever imagine (not that any other domestic violence murders are any more pleasant, but you know what I mean). But then again, that is exactly what violent abusers don't like is strong women .. well, theory goes that they are attracted to strong women because it's more of a challenge for them, but then find they cannot handle it when someone stands up to them and fights them back, so they let rip .. and this is what I believe happened with OP and Reeva, she was a feisty girl (and too right, too) and whilst it was something that attracted him to her in the first instance, he didn't like the fact that she didn't bow and scrape to him all the time and had her own mind.

The most ironic tweet of all being the one where she said how she '.. woke up in a happy safe home this morning. Not everyone did. Speak out against the rape of individuals&#8230; ' .. how sad that only days later, she became one of those who did not wake up in a safe happy home.

 

[foxbluff]

From what I can make out, I think the hole in the door would've been big enough to reach through (3 panels were out, 1 still left in by that stage?) .. but, seeing as it's so small in there, and Reeva was collapsed all over the floor, blood everywhere, what are the chances of him actually being able to spot the key that quickly? It would either have landed on top of Reeva, then got buried in the folds of her clothing, or just underneath her (fallen through her legs or something), or gone into a pool of blood, it wouldn't just be all shiney and new, glistening out at him from a large bare patch of tiles .. and that's on top of what I already said about that type of key not being very easy to either drop out of the keyhole, or shoot out when the door was hit with the bat, not if it was in the locked position. The green tag of the key that we saw in the photos appeared to be clean, too .. not a hint of blood on it. The whole thing sounds fabricated to me.

bbm - Same here jay !! The key thing simply didn't have a ring of truth to it... I'm still not convinced the door was actually locked... (in the same way I'm not convinced that the alarm was on that night... heck, I don't even know if she had her cell phone with her.)

Yet, for some reason, Nel must have believed the toilet door was locked as he put it under common cause in his HoA:

"43 The objective facts that are common cause are the following:
· The accused fired the shots that killed the deceased
· The deceased was shot and killed whilst in the toilet cubicle
· The deceased was shot and killed after 03:00 on the morning of 14 February 2013
· There was a good grouping of the shots in the toilet door
· Bullet hole “A” was the first shot fired and the deceased was close to the toilet door facing the accused when she was shot in the hip
· The deceased was fully clothed when she was shot
· The accused fired four shots
· The accused used Black Talon ammunition
· There was screaming (who screamed is, however, an aspect of contention)
· The door of the toilet cubicle was locked from the inside
· The door of the toilet cubicle was broken down with a cricket bat (Exhibit no “1”)
· The deceased’s phone was found in the bathroom (Exhibit “E” photo 104)
· The accused’s phone was found in the bathroom (Exhibit “E” photo 108 and 109)
· The accused used his other phone to make phone calls from the bedroom area and later from the kitchen area
· The accused said to people who arrived on the scene that he thought she (the deceased) was an intruder
· The accused was on his stumps when he fired the shots
· The firearm was found in the bathroom
· Mrs Van der Merwe heard a woman talking as if arguing at 01:56 on the morning of the murder
· During the post mortem Professor Saayman discovered that the stomach of the deceased contained approximately 200 millimeters of partially digested food residue with the appearance of primarily vegetable matter
· The hroom light was on (when exactly it was switched on is a contentious issue)
· The accused carried the deceased from the bathroom downstairs to the foyer of his house
· The accused spoke to Mr Baba on the phone"

 

[jay-jay]

bbm - Same here jay !! The key thing simply didn't have a ring of truth to it... I'm still not convinced the door was actually locked... (in the same way I'm not convinced that the alarm was on that night... heck, I don't even know if she had her cell phone with her.)

Yet, for some reason, Nel must have believed the toilet door was locked as he put it under common cause in his HoA:

~rsbm~

Yes, I was really surprised to hear that it had been declared 'common cause' and just wondered if the PT had fallen down the rabbit hole with some of these things. Or, it might just be that they aren't able to prove otherwise .. as seems to be the case with so many things in this trial. Pistorius has committed the 'perfect murder', hasn't he :-/

 

[Angela Carr]

I wonder what Nel and his team are planning for the next stage of this sorry saga? He must surely be fed up at how things have turned out? Can they appeal this sentence? Or is he going to wait and see what jail time is given, if any. Would another more experienced judge not see things differently. Masipa does not have a lot of experience and was an affirmative action appointment.Surely reevas family deserve better.

 

[AW2B]

It is, isn't it. Does Judge Masipa live in a cave or sommat, she does not seem to have much knowledge of the outside world as far as I can make out.

I don't think it's lack of legal experience as a judge..I don't think it's lack of social experience as a person..I think she is simply BIASED!

None of us has more experience in the field of criminal trials..yet it's obvious to us that his story is beyond RIDICULOUS..it's obvious to us that the evidence points to DOMESTIC fight that escalated to murder...it's obvious to us that his theatrical cries are nothing but just that ---> THEATRICAL..

 

[Susza]

Oscar Pistorius and Reeva Steenkamp’s relationship was far from ‘normal’

In acquitting Pistorius of murder, Judge Masipa seems to be saying that brutality is part and parcel of ordinary life

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...eenkamp-murder-normal-relationship?CMP=twt_gu

There are 1480 comments on this article!

"What is a “normal relationship”? Excitingly, this long-mulled-over question has at last been resolved. “Normal relationships are dynamic and unpredictable most of the time, and human beings are fickle,” Judge Thokozile Masipa said on Thursday, explaining why she was not convicting Oscar Pistorius of the murder of Reeva Steenkamp.

This dynamism, according to Masipa, is why Steenkamp professed herself in messages to Pistorius to be “scared of you sometimes and how u snap at me and of how you will react to me”. (This message was prescient, seeing as, on 14 February 2013, Pistorius was to pump her full of bullets.) Steenkamp felt “attacked”, she wrote, by the person she “deserved protection from.” This, according to the judge, is a normal relationship. And thus, even though Pistorius killed Steenkamp, he did not murder her, according to the judge. Instead, she convicted him of culpable homicide."

"Masipa's ruling sends out “a very negative message that you can kill someone and claim it was a mistake and get away with it”.

"And this is an issue that, of course, goes far beyond celebrity. In South Africa, a woman is killed by her partner every eight hours. In the UK, two die a week. Perhaps Masipa was right after all. Perhaps this was a “normal relationship.” But that doesn't make it right."

I totally agree!

 

[east2west]

I've just finished listening to the first part. Judge G is brilliant at cutting through all the crap, all the stuff that has endlessly fascinated us but which is really mostly window dressing (the belted or non-belted jeans being a perfect example!), and saying it mainly comes down to what was OP thinking when he pointed his 9mm at the door and fired.

His comments on OP's reaction after the crime and how Masipa really should not have taken this into account were interesting in that he queried whether Masipa had had enough experience to understand that a guilty person can be remorseful immediately after committing a crime. My question is how much experience does one really need to have to work that one out? Twenty years as an advocate and judge or just a healthy dose of scepticism???

His comments on what he felt was mishandling of court proceedings were interesting too - he felt some (state) witnesses had been badgered and that Masipa should have intervened. Looking back on the trial, Masipa's lack of engagement now seems quite telling. At the time I thought this was just how judges behave in SA, whereas I think in the UK there is much more of a sense that the judge is in charge. In this case, it often felt to me that Nel and Roux were running the show entirely. Masipa just didn't seem to have much of a presence or influence other than deciding on when they were to have the next tea break.

She barely spoke, except to declare "break for Tea" and not wanting to punish him "twice".
I could have done that without a law degree.[emoji15]

 

[AW2B]

OscarTrial &#8207;@OscarTrialNews Apr 2
#OscarPistorius has lunch with his legal team in Sandton. pic.twitter.com/A7xg1s1YmI

OscarTrial &#8207;@OscarTrialNews Apr 2
#OscarPistorius seen wearing a cream formal jacket while having lunch in Sandton earlier. JM pic.twitter.com/TWl2LpEeCM


Notice how OP's demeanor changes when he's been told he's been spotted by the media. A minute before he's laughing his head off.

What an actor!! With that said..Masipa was more than willing to be fooled!!

 

[JudgeJudi]

Another possibility is that Reeva was standing at the door, gripping the handle to hold the door shut.

Remember there is NO evidence (other than Pistorius' word) that the door was locked. There may not have been a key in the lock, hence no means of locking it.
It was his private en-suite toilet, not one for general use by visitors.

I just had another thought about the toilet door. You know the grains of truth contained within lies – OP said he heard the toilet door slam shut. We know it wasn’t an intruder and Reeva couldn’t slam it shut because the door opens outwards. I think there’s a good possibility that Reeva ran into the toilet with OP chasing her, cricket bat in hand. OP himself slammed the door shut, not her, and then hit the bath plate. At this point she certainly wouldn’t have opened the door knowing he was going crazy with the bat. While she was talking/pleading with him he got the key and locked her in. At this point she started screaming the blood-curdling screams, knowing he was in the midst of a rage. I believe that after being shot in the hip she put her hands in a defensive position up to her head because she knew it wasn’t an intruder and did know it was him trying to kill her. After being shot in the hip like that, wouldn’t your natural reaction be to put your hands where that injury was, not up to your head?

ETA: I don't believe if the door was in the locked position that the key would have fallen out onto the floor.