awaiting sentencing phase

[Lux et Veritas]

Originally Posted by delilah
I've just finished listening to the first part. Judge G is brilliant at cutting through all the crap, all the stuff that has endlessly fascinated us but which is really mostly window dressing (the belted or non-belted jeans being a perfect example!), and saying it mainly comes down to what was OP thinking when he pointed his 9mm at the door and fired.

His comments on OP's reaction after the crime and how Masipa really should not have taken this into account were interesting in that he queried whether Masipa had had enough experience to understand that a guilty person can be remorseful immediately after committing a crime. My question is how much experience does one really need to have to work that one out? Twenty years as an advocate and judge or just a healthy dose of scepticism???

His comments on what he felt was mishandling of court proceedings were interesting too - he felt some (state) witnesses had been badgered and that Masipa should have intervened. Looking back on the trial, Masipa's lack of engagement now seems quite telling. At the time I thought this was just how judges behave in SA, whereas I think in the UK there is much more of a sense that the judge is in charge. In this case, it often felt to me that Nel and Roux were running the show entirely. Masipa just didn't seem to have much of a presence or influence other than deciding on when they were to have the next tea break.

BBM: No kidding! Its really incredible to me that Masipa basically publicly admitted to this. To me, that is quintessential naiveté. Seriously.

[underlining and bolding by me]

Somehow, I doubt it was naivete. Masipa was absolutely on a mission. Whether it was a profoundly biased mission of "mercy" in favor of saving the Blade Runner (those days are over!), who's been "punished" enough or whether it was a mission under dire threat from outside forces, we're likely never to know.

Defense's evidence, witnesses and most especially OP himself were so dismal and ridiculous, the ONLY thing Masipa could put forth to "absolve" OP of dolus eventualis was his "remorse" ... she surely could not absolve him under the law. And even though remorse after the fact is zero indicator of absence of intent to commit murder ... PLUS the fact that remorse is used at sentencing, not judgement. LOL What a freakin mess.

While she reviled the State's witnesses out of hand, she very curiously relied on the suddenly highly credible testimony of Dr. Stipp as eye witness to Ozzie's hysterics (even while she condemned the good doctor as "mistaken" about everything else that night). :lol:

This rotten cherry-picked verdict should be catapulted into the Appeals Court.

 

[lisasalinger]

Hey guys,

I added written transcripts of the interview to my blog, if you want to check them out... that way you don't have to suffer through my "ums" and audio glitches

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/09/27/judge-and-juror-vs-a-miscarriage-of-justice/


Hope you all had a great weekend.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

The 'intruder' story is as old as the hills and, as a matter of fact, I just saw a story on Friday which showcased it yet again.
The case was about Seth Techel, 23, who was recently found guilty of first-degree murder and sentenced to life in prison following the shooting death of his recent bride, Lisa Caldwell Techel.
They were married only seven months and she was four months pregnant when he shot her as she slept, (so he could date a co-worker,) and then tried to blame the killing on an intruder.
He put on a good Pistorius-like performance during his call to 911 and for the attending police and EMS personnel.
Some of the “acting” is sampled in the following brief clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa_0zjjzFvc

Undoubtedly Masipa would have been convinced of his innocence, because surely he couldn't have been "play-acting, merely to delude the onlookers."


The clip was taken from a two-hour Dateline episode:
http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/dateline-full-episodes/full-episode-dawn-n213106

Thanks cynic, I listened to the youtube 911 call, what an act, all the sobbing and his story??!! Pathetic! And Techel wondering round with his shirt off, that was a weird moment, probably trying to look disorientated. I have bookmarked the Dateline link to watch later, I haven't heard of this case before and it does help identifying similar actions and behaviour by these killers.

Also, I watched yesterday, 'OJ Simpson-Caught on Camera', aired by our local channel, the court scene of Nicole's sister describing the night OJS 'blew a gasket' and threw her, Nicole and some man out of the house reminded me of OP yelling, 'Get the **** out of my house!' the night he killed Reeva.

OP threw everyone out of the house the night he fought with his previous girlfriend, he punched the front door, broke a panel which injured Taylor-Memmory.

If Masipa doesn't give OP jail time which he MUST serve, it will be OJ all over again. :gaah: JMO

 

[saraomar]

Does anyone think/know if j masipa and assessors have any idea that their verdict has caused an uproar? Do they care? Surely their friends and family, social media, newspapers, colleagues at court have pointed out the errors and ridiculous, incomplete verdict devoid of any detailed explanation. Anyone in SA who can comment on this?

 

[vanatos]

Hey guys,

I added written transcripts of the interview to my blog, if you want to check them out... that way you don't have to suffer through my "ums" and audio glitches

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/09/27/judge-and-juror-vs-a-miscarriage-of-justice/


Hope you all had a great weekend.

Thanks Lisa!

it was a great interview you had with Judge Greenland, you can really see his passion for justice and his great dissapointment with this case, because it really should have been a turning point for SA.

It really was a simple case...

 

[JudgeJudi]

If eyes are the windows to the soul, what does this photo say to you?

 

[zoran]

I don't think its fair to label still shots. I mean for all we know he may have just poo"d his pants and is looking for the exit :laugh:

 

[jay-jay]

Thanks cynic, I listened to the youtube 911 call, what an act, all the sobbing and his story??!! Pathetic! And Techel wondering round with his shirt off, that was a weird moment, probably trying to look disorientated. I have bookmarked the Dateline link to watch later, I haven't heard of this case before and it does help identifying similar actions and behaviour by these killers.

~rsmb~

I noticed that that was exactly the same type of 'sobbing' produced by OP on the stand .. remember the one when he was saying on gaining entry to the toilet and finding Reeva "... she wasn't breathing .. <sob sob .. I really must show how upset I am otherwise I'm going to jail .. sob sob > " .. EXACTLY the same, and totally false! Anyone believing this BS needs a fluppin good shake .. wake up and smell the coffee!

 

[jay-jay]

I don't think its fair to label still shots. I mean for all we know he may have just poo"d his pants and is looking for the exit :laugh:

:giggle:

 

[Deleted member 102539]

If eyes are the windows to the soul, what does this photo say to you?[/QUOTE

To me it says: Back to Weskoppies!

 

[mrjitty]

Oh really - Masipa should retire because Greenwood 'thinks' she's incorrect? That's a bit premature. Unless the court of appeal say so, there hasn't been any mistake. This is only an opinion from a retired judge, who had to maintain his stance as he laid his cards on the table very early in the trial during his regular PR appearances. If a mistake was made it will be appealed. If there is no appeal, we can presume that there has been no mistake.

I wouldn't read to much into the comments of lawyers/judges outside of the case as they all interpret the law in their own way. Both Greenwood and Masipa have been wrong before and had successful appeals against their decisions. The same goes for lawyers. If their opinions were always correct they'd never lose a case.

Are you a lawyer? What do you base these comments on?

First instance judges frequently screw up the law. However it may not be appealed if the prosecution decides to accept the end result, as the State must balance many factors - especially use of resources.

A related point is that the Supreme Court has already set out the law for DE quite clearly and as an inferior Court, Masipa's judgement is not good law. It's unlikely other Courts of first instance will follow this decision

And the legal community is actually quite good at identifying when such mistakes are made - as its a key part of the development of the law. While everyone gets hot under the collar about Pistorius, detailed analysis of decisions happens on a daily basis in the real world.

Seldom is it so clear that the judge has made such a bad mistake. That is why it was ripped to bits overnight.

Usually these things take quite a bit longer - but its child's play when the Judge misstates the law in her oral discussion.

 

[saraomar]

I havent been able to go back and listen to the verdict....but felt I should listen and watch carefully so went back.
2 things I noticed straight away:
1) Nel does not once look up, instead looks for his pen and immediately starts writing. Please note how he waves his hand to someone (as if dismissively), does he know from the start this is a joke?
2) the female assessor looks towards the defence team and smiles? (30 seconds from beginning)

http://youtu.be/m1_ra2K6Ij4

 

[AW2B]

I don't think its fair to label still shots. I mean for all we know he may have just poo"d his pants and is looking for the exit :laugh:

:hilarious:

That's a good line Masipa can add to her list of excuses..

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Ty for link... interesting to see pics of uncle Arnold's home. It's not at all what I had expected. I had envisioned a mansion on large acreage with guest houses, caretaker house and servant houses spread out on the estate.

The house looks very pompous, but you are right: I also had expected more space and some buildings with inner courtyard or so. :smile:

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Apropos pic of Oscar:
I always wonder about OP's completely relaxed lips, no matter the stress he has.

 

[mrjitty]

When she declared that Pistorius was not guilty of murder..several experts said that she misapplied the test of Dolus Eventualis..I'm sure she heard those comments ..so she corrected it the following day..but not quite according to the experts..in other words..it won't work.
I think she knew she was in trouble..

It's not really surprising that her knowledge of criminal law was shown up.

Top professors will typically have significantly superior and up to date knowledge to Judges who are many years out of law school.

And this Judge never had a big background in criminal anyway and is a lightweight by international standards.

Often the judges rely on their clerks and counsel to understand this stuff.

She clearly relied upon the dodgy submissions by defence counsel as they have been virtually cut and pasted in.

IMO the greatest concern is the intellectual laziness revealed by that.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I havent been able to go back and listen to the verdict....but felt I should listen and watch carefully so went back.
2 things I noticed straight away:
1) Nel does not once look up, instead looks for his pen and immediately starts writing. Please note how he waves his hand to someone (as if dismissively), does he know from the start this is a joke?
2) the female assessor looks towards the defence team and smiles? (30 seconds from beginning)

http://youtu.be/m1_ra2K6Ij4

I noticed that too saraomar when it was shown live, there was Nel furiously writing away.

Ohoh, look at 45:39 on full screen, Nel is clearly drawing a picture. :floorlaugh:

 

[PrimeSuspect]

To me it says: Back to Weskoppies!

:giggle:

So true FG, there is a rage inside this man and it doesn't take much for it to come to the surface.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

It's not really surprising that her knowledge of criminal law was shown up.

Top professors will typically have significantly superior and up to date knowledge to Judges who are many years out of law school.

And this Judge never had a big background in criminal anyway and is a lightweight by international standards.

Often the judges rely on their clerks and counsel to understand this stuff.

She clearly relied upon the dodgy submissions by defence counsel as they have been virtually cut and pasted in.

IMO the greatest concern is the intellectual laziness revealed by that.

Exactly mrj, funny thing though, this whole trial process on camera was suppose to show SA in a good light, it's done the opposite. :aktion1:

 

[mister happy]

Exactly mrj, funny thing though, this whole trial process on camera was suppose to show SA in a good light, it's done the opposite. :aktion1:

From what I saw, most often, the judge and her two assessors looked like zombies sitting up there.