awaiting sentencing phase

[homegirl]

Ok.

I don't believe it is reasonable to believe in this sequence of events.

1. Pistorius grabbed his gun under the bed, yet could not confirm Reeva was on the bed, when he would be right next to her
2. I do not believe any reasonable person would hear a sound in the bathroom and not consider it is the person sleeping over
3. I do not believe Reeva would be at the door of the toilet rather then sitting on the toilet, unless she was in fact talking/arguing with Pistorius, because usually you go to the toilet to use the toilet, not the door, on the other side.
4. I do not believe Pistorius could aim so well, in such a sequence, first knowingly being able to hit Reeva at the position of the door, which requires knowing she was at the door,
instead of the toilet, then adjusting his aim to shoot at her fallen body which then fell on the toilet, instead of simply backwards from the door.



Given Pistorius' well known history of verbal abuse, both publicly in front of his girlfriend, and privately, it is clear and fact that Pistorius is mentally unbalanced with regards to relationships with women.

In that regard, nothing is outside the realm of reasonable possibility in his abuse of women.

RBBM
I am just taking off on this point, Vantos, though I agree with everything you said. I have been working for a while, in 3D, on recreating some of the sequence of events on Feb. 14. I have done an animation recreating the actual shooting. I am not very good with animation. I have feet going through the floor, a hand going through the toilet, my camera work sucks and the timing is off here and there, but this is more or less what I think happened to Reeva in the WC. Op's figure is not animated except that I moved him backwards down the entry while he is firing as was shown in the Sunday Night video. I posed him as he demonstrated his shooting position, also in the video. He clearly could not have made most of the shots as he moved backwards in the entry.

I know the exact heights of bullet A (depicted in red) and B (depicted in green). I used the heights of the bullet holes in the door for bullets C (blue) and D (yellow). They would actually be a little lower because of the 5 to 6% downward trajectory, but I don't know how to figure that. I know where B hit the wall. I was surprised at how high bullets C (blue) and D (yellow) were. I got some clues about the bullet positions from the back and forth between Wolmerans and Nel during cross. He said that one bullet probably would have hit the short wall, probably A (hip shot). That helped me position A in space and helped with Reeva's standing position. B (missed shot) is known to have hit at mark E in the corner of the back wall and the short wall. He said that one bullet would have hit close to the bullet ricochet marks E and F. I have decided that bullet C was the third shot. I can't be absolutely sure, but it seems to be most likely to me. So I positioned bullet C the (arm shot) close to the ricochets. This meant that Reeva had to be a little higher than she would have been had she been sitting on the magazine rack at that point. I am the least sure about the position of bullet D (head shot), so did the best I could with that one. I positioned it where it could have caused the blood and tissue on the toilet lid.

The animation starts with the hip shot. She falls backwards with weight still on her left foot and with her back against the wall. She balances there, on her left foot, using the wall to stay half standing for a very brief time, just long enough for bullet C to hit her in her right arm. Her right arm drops. She drops onto the Magazine rack. She tries to cover her head with her left hand as she continues to fall towards the toilet. Bullet D hits her between her fingers and in the head, as she is falling. She ends up with her head on the toilet bowl and her lower body on the magazine rack.

I want to do an animation using OP's version one of these days. I am really glad that someone leaked the video as that will help me a lot.




http://s46.photobucket.com/user/alarka1/media/animationReeva2_zps03572a78.mp4.html?o=0

 

[JudgeJudi]

<Respectfully snipped>

RBBM

I wan't to do an animation using OP's version one of these days. I am really glad that someone leaked the video as that will help me a lot.

http://s46.photobucket.com/user/alarka1/media/animationReeva2_zps03572a78.mp4.html?o=0

Thank you Homegirl. I just clicked on your link. Your animation worked perfectly for me. I'm really impressed how you did that. I just hope you can do more. The animation is a lot better than a lot I've seen on TV. Well done.

 

[homegirl]

Thanks Judgejudi. I see that the link is working, so edited my post. It takes me a while because I am still learning to use my software, but it helps me a lot to understand things better. It will be challenging to decide which of OP's versions to use. I may have to do more than one for him. The only thing that he hasn't changed his story on is the position in which he says he found Reeva. That is another lie and I can demonstrate that it is.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

I don't think it's too much of an exaggeration to say that the family created the monster that is OP .. obv. he must already have had something within him, but they were also facilitators .. my violent ex partner's family were just the same, especially his mother who would always be making excuses for him. When he came around to my house while I was out, the weekend we broke up (for the last and final time), he smashed the front door in then trashed the rest of the house, leaving blood smears all down the walls and on the carpets (honestly, it was like something from a horror movie when I got back home, thank **** I hadn't been there when he broke in is all I can say) .. can you believe that his MOTHER came around and started trying to clear up, she told me on the phone later she was trying to sweep up all the glass etc, and it was all just so that her 'little boy' didn't look so bad. Fortunately the police weren't quite so taken in by it, and went round and arrested him at his mother's house. Whenever he used to get drunk and violent, she would end up turning it all around and blaming it on me .. it was never her precious son's fault, oh no .. the fact he had already been like it for 18 years before he met me didn't seem to register with her, the stupid woman.

Monster is right, JJ.

Dysfunctional/Pathological families (of all varieties) most often breed dysfunctional/pathological children (does anyone really believe that blueberries pop up when you plant corn?). This is why a culture of abuse is so often generational.

What’s really ironic is that all too often a violent sociopath ends up killing his ENTIRE family - some even become mass murderers. It defies common sense how such families can defend such sick, dangerous relatives, how they could ever feel safe around them.

Nothing that OP does in the future would shock or surprise me - nothing.

Several times, my abusive ex threatened that he’d go up on a rooftop with a rifle and take out as many “f##ckers” as he could before the cops took him out. When I hear news of a murder/suicide or mass murderer, I always half expect my ex’s name to be in the headlines.

 

[AJ_DS]

I cropped, enlarged, swapped the colors around and increased the sharpness as much as I could and rotated it, do you still see the same things? Not challenging you, just trying to see what's there.

View attachment 60056

This image is far less clear than the original&#8230; but I still don't see a belt.

Next, let's try : flip horizontal + flip vertical + invert + fresco + lens flare

Do you still see a belt ?










:hilarious:

 

[JudgeJudi]

Thanks Judgejudi. I see that the link is working, so edited my post. It takes me a while because I am still learning to use my software, but it helps me a lot to understand things better. It will be challenging to decide which of OP's versions to use. I may have to do more than one for him. The only thing that he hasn't changed his story on is the position in which he says he found Reeva. That is another lie and I can demonstrate that it is.

This in itself says how totally ludicrous this trial has been and why most of us are so against the verdict.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

I was considering that the jeans were something like this. I do agree with FromGermany about the grout line in the tile. That looks right. I can't believe photographing jeans went on my to do list for today LOL. I really don't have a strong opinion about the jeans. You could very well be right.

Well done, Homegirl! We sure have some talented and very dedicated websleuthers on this forum!

After carefully reexamining the outside jeans again and closely studying your recreation, I believe that Reeva's jeans were right-side out with no belt.

I cannot make out any bottom hem lines in the legs, which would be pretty visible if the jeans were inside out, due to the darker hem showing up on the lighter material of the inside.

The Outside Jeans will be one of the greatest mysteries of the OP case!

(GAH!! Why must we suffer with such low-res, grainy photos?!! How do they expect us to solve the damn case with shoddy evidence like this?!! :lol: )

 

[AW2B]

I cropped, enlarged, swapped the colors around and increased the sharpness as much as I could and rotated it, do you still see the same things? Not challenging you, just trying to see what's there.

View attachment 60056

WOW! I can clearly see a belt in this picture..

You did a great job...thanks :toast:

 

[AW2B]

Well done, Homegirl! We sure have some talented and very dedicated websleuthers on this forum!

After carefully reexamining the outside jeans again and closely studying your recreation, I believe that Reeva's jeans were right-side out with no belt.

I cannot make out any bottom hem lines in the legs, which would be pretty visible if the jeans were inside out, due to the darker hem showing up on the lighter material of the inside.

The Outside Jeans will be one of the greatest mysteries of the OP case!

(GAH!! Why must we suffer with such low-res, grainy photos?!! How do they expect us to solve the damn case with shoddy evidence like this?!! :lol: )

BRBM

I was about to post the same thing..almost word for word..

 

[K.T]

RBBM
I am just taking off on this point, Vantos, though I agree with everything you said. I have been working for a while, in 3D, on recreating some of the sequence of events on Feb. 14. I have done an animation recreating the actual shooting. I am not very good with animation. I have feet going through the floor, a hand going through the toilet, my camera work sucks and the timing is off here and there, but this is more or less what I think happened to Reeva in the WC. Op's figure is not animated except that I moved him backwards down the entry while he is firing as was shown in the Sunday Night video. I posed him as he demonstrated his shooting position, also in the video. He clearly could not have made most of the shots as he moved backwards in the entry.
<snipped>
The animation starts with the hip shot. She falls backwards with weight still on her left foot and with her back against the wall. She balances there, on her left foot, using the wall to stay half standing for a very brief time, just long enough for bullet C to hit her in her right arm. Her right arm drops. She drops onto the Magazine rack. She tries to cover her head with her left hand as she continues to fall towards the toilet. Bullet D hits her between her fingers and in the head, as she is falling. She ends up with her head on the toilet bowl and her lower body on the magazine rack.

I wan't to do an animation using OP's version one of these days. I am really glad that someone leaked the video as that will help me a lot.




http://s46.photobucket.com/user/alarka1/media/animationReeva2_zps03572a78.mp4.html?o=0

Fantastic work on the animation. Important to see, please try to sync with gun shots and his body actions if you have time.

Certainly seems better than the 1990's low level (defense paid) animation work from the 'The Evidence Room', seen on Channel Seven. They didn't even attempt any serious detailed recreation of his version/s.

 

[homegirl]

Originally Posted by Lux et Veritas

BBM

We sure have some talented and very dedicated websleuthers on this forum!

We certainly do! Our combined talents are formidable.

:laugh:

(GAH!! Why must we suffer with such low-res, grainy photos?!! How do they expect us to solve the damn case with shoddy evidence like this?!! )

 

[K.T]

Opps, on my mb and I just lost a post but I'll say quickly that its not surprising that Meneloas (sp) is renting the property of Pistorius. The sale was made by Ansie Louw, the wife of Pistorius' longtime trainer. Stander is a long time friend and estate manager of Silverlakes. Pistorius was one of the first buyers of Silverlakes a d obviously a 'name' client. I even speculate that the new buyer, a mining consultant, is peripherally connected in business with Pistorius clan...all these circles can be wealthy and incestous in business dealings.

They all have a slice in the Pistorius brand and clan, small or large, not only about friendship or loyalty. Makes these type of cases and how they are covered in the media so frustrating. Because none of the interviews/testimony given by these Pistorius defenders can be seen as financially clean, unbiased or independent.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/11005946/Oscar-Pistoriuss-house-sold.html

 

[cottonweaver]

We've heard a great deal about the things we have to believe in order to accept OP's version of events. However, I've yet to see anybody outline the particular things we need to believe in order to accept that OP is guilty of intent to kill Reeva. As we're supposed to look at the case for both sides with equally balanced points of reasoning, it would be interesting to hear anyone's views on what would need to be believed to accept their version of events. [SIZE=3[B]]Obviously, many people will have a different version of events[/B] [/SIZE]depending on how they believe OP committed the crime, but I presume that everybody's version isn't cut and dried, and relies on us having to take a leap of faith on a few things.

One of the things that make me a strong non-believer in many forum posters versions is the idea that OP mocked Reeva's screams in the way that has been suggested. I absolutely accept that people have been mocked sarcastically during domestic violence, but here we are talking about something entirely different. This couldn't possibly be quantified as a similar action. If you try and imagine someone doing this, they would direct mocking sarcasm at the victim, and the tone and demeanour would be one that shows disrespect and apathy towards the victim. Now try and place that same picture on the morning in question. [SIZE=3[B]]We are expected to believe that OP mocked Reeva, but rather than mocking her apathetically or sarcastically he decided to mock her by making a scream at such volume that it was heard over a distance almost 2 football pitches away.[/B][/SIZE]

This idea is the exact opposite of how domestic violence perpetrators operate. The modus operandi of such a person is to direct everything towards the victim, whilst attempting to maintain an outward image of normality to people outside the relationship. I fail to see the connection between someone screaming in a distressed manner at such extreme volume with someone supposedly using a disrespectful mocking tone towards a victim. The two really are miles apart.

It's worth remembering that this suggestion wasn't proffered by the prosecution. It would never have been suggested because it contradicts typical domestic violence indicators.

This was simply a passing comment made by Michelle Burger when she was pushed for a response as to why OP would have screamed, bearing in mind he was the one supposed to be committing the violence. The comment was made off the top of her head, which is clear to see by re-watching the court testimony. The reason we know that it was is because she didn't suspect or suggest that it may have been a mocking tone at any time whatsoever prior to Roux's question during testimony. Both herself and Charl Johnson were convinced that the noises were related to a burglary at the time, and this was never disputed. This was nothing more than a throwaway comment made by Michelle Burger when she got a bit riled in court. As with a few things, it was blown out of proportion by people thinking this may have happened. She didn't even suggest that she thought this is what happened - she said 'perhaps' he may have been mocking. A simple speculative comment made by a witness became a necessity, so much so that many versions fell apart if they did not include this as a definitive action. We have seen another example of witness speculation hindering the trial, rather than helping.

Miles apart?

Didn't want to snip your long post, hence up-sizing.
You have misinterpreted the testimony here (Burger's evidence) and then come up with a fallacious argument on which you hang your beliefs and how DV operates plus point to lack of plausibility. I could say an awful lot about that but I'll resist it.

Burger never said the screams were a mockery. Do you remember B's own tears on the stand?

She was simply responding to Roux's badgering about why OP may have called "Help help help". She said she didn't know and then suggested mockery. It was a plausible answer that Roux did not want to hear at that point.

 

[K.T]

Still think the evidence in photo's that we've discussed:
- jeans outside
- blood splatter in area's which do not appear consistent with Pistorius version
- bedroom door damage, holes, scrapping
- various broken tile pattern
- bath panel home damage
- breathing/blood splatter and time of death of Pistorius version implausibility
- etc.
Are rebuttals to Pistorius version/s against the 'reasonably, possibly true' defense.

One question - I've always thought that air pellet shot/s at the bedroom door could be a loud sound, not from the quiet noise release of the ammunition, but from the sound of a hard projectile piercing through or bouncing off the wooden doors.
Note: the doors were closed or broken/damaged, they are framed double-doors - this could increase the reverb off another half forced door rather than a single-door locked to wooden frame. Love to hear an accoustic test of broken/open double door with air gun pellet shots, has someone posted one already? I find nail guns when they go pierce through wooden partitions loud, wondering if that is a different but valid sound comparison.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Still think the evidence in photo's that we've discussed:
- jeans outside
- blood splatter in area's which do not appear consistent with Pistorius version
- bedroom door damage, holes, scrapping
- various broken tile pattern
- bath panel home damage
- breathing/blood splatter and time of death of Pistorius version implausibility
- etc.
Are rebuttals to Pistorius version/s against the 'reasonably, possibly true' defense.

One question - I've always thought that air pellet shot/s at the bedroom door could be a loud sound, not from the quiet noise release of the ammunition, but from the sound of a hard projectile piercing through or bouncing off the wooden doors.
Note: the doors were closed or broken/damaged, they are framed double-doors - this could increase the reverb off another half forced door rather than a single-door locked to wooden frame. Love to hear an accoustic test of broken/open double door with air gun pellet shots, has someone posted one already? I find nail guns when they go pierce through wooden partitions loud, wondering if that is a different but valid sound comparison.

“Prosecutor Gerrie Nel introduced photographs of Pistorius's main bedroom door damaged around its lock and with what is thought to be a projectile hole in it, and an air rifle fitted with a silencer leaning next to it”.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2014/03/14/reliving-the-horror

 

[jimmy73]

For me no leap of faith is required to reach the conclusion that Pistorius is guilty of murder. STRONG witness testimony of terrified female screams in direct contrast to his version. They are amongst the most distinctive sounds one can hear (along with a baby's cry, 1000s of years of evolution have tuned us to this) and on this basis I believe Pistorius is lying. Once you take that step, not leap, everything else falls into place.

I have tried to follow Pistorius' version but have to take a leap on several points (the startles, Reeva not responding, the probability of all these events).

FWIW, my unsubstantiated view is that Pistorius had probably fantasised / played through a break in scenario, how he would go into stealth mode and then blow the guy away.

I entertained this as the most likely way his version could be partly true.

BUT, given the screams and other strong circumstantial evidence (photos, gastric state?, I believe he was simply able to call on that imagining quickly, when he realised things had gone south.

One could extrapolate from that and assume the 'no, please no' heard by one witness after might be part of the same cover story.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Opps, on my mb and I just lost a post but I'll say quickly that its not surprising that Meneloas (sp) is renting the property of Pistorius. The sale was made by Ansie Louw, the wife of Pistorius' longtime trainer. Stander is a long time friend and estate manager of Silverlakes. Pistorius was one of the first buyers of Silverlakes a d obviously a 'name' client. I even speculate that the new buyer, a mining consultant, is peripherally connected in business with Pistorius clan...all these circles can be wealthy and incestous in business dealings.

They all have a slice in the Pistorius brand and clan, small or large, not only about friendship or loyalty. Makes these type of cases and how they are covered in the media so frustrating. Because none of the interviews/testimony given by these Pistorius defenders can be seen as financially clean, unbiased or independent.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/11005946/Oscar-Pistoriuss-house-sold.html

Ampie Louw was OP&#8217;s coach for nearly 10 years and is said to be like a father to him. He was one of the first on the scene after the shooting.

&#8220;The coach and Oscar had much in common, sharing a fascination with fast cars and guns: "I think that's a normal boy thing, there's a lot of people that like guns. And my son, if you talk about a machine gun, he will tell you an M16 is a good gun and Oscar even said he will take him to a shooting range for him to shoot with a machine gun."

Gun journals describe the M16 as an automatic rifle / light machine gun. So for what purpose did OP acquire this weapon &#8211; hunting defenceless animals or defenceless girlfriends who need to go to the toilet during the night. Oh, course, when multiple intruders climb up the ladder and into the bathroom.

http://www.channel4.com/news/oscar-pistorius-guns-reeva-steenkamp-court


And then I just discovered this little gem:

&#8220;Police confiscated a large stash of revolvers, shotguns, and rifles at Pistorius&#8217; home following his arrest, most of which he didn&#8217;t have a permit for. But just days after getting out of jail on bail, one of the first things Pistorius did was to reapply for a permit to replace the handguns the police had taken away&#8221;, The Guardian reported.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/blog/2014/03/03/the-dangerous-liaisons-of-oscar-pistorius/index.html


The more we learn, the more "we know the truth" to use that oft-quoted phrase.

 

[lisasalinger]

Hey guys, check it out:

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/09/27/judge-and-juror-vs-a-miscarriage-of-justice/

I had an opportunity to speak with Judge Chris Greenland via Skype last night and there is a link to the audio interview on my blog. He was extremely gracious and spoke with me for an hour and a half. It's a long audio (sorry), so grab a cup of coffee and kick back to listen.

Unfortunately Skype is not always totally reliable, so there are some areas where the Judge is a bit difficult to hear, and the first few minutes were a little awkward, but once we got past that we were able to dig in to some good conversation. I tried to get in as many questions as possible that related to topics we've been discussing here, and he was very honest in his answers. I hope you enjoy it.

P.S. I did not ask him about the belt on the jeans :giggle:

 

[cottonweaver]

FWIW, my unsubstantiated view is that Pistorius had probably fantasised / played through a break in scenario, how he would go into stealth mode and then blow the guy away.

I entertained this as the most likely way his version could be partly true.

BUT, given the screams and other strong circumstantial evidence (photos, gastric state?, I believe he was simply able to call on that imagining quickly, when he realised things had gone south.

RSBM

Agree with above- it would have been relatively easy for him to come up with his initial 2 line intruder story to Dr. Stipp, Standers, police who came on site that morning.

We already know from both ST and his ex-housemate that, from their experience sleeping at his, that he was scaring them with his readiness to get out his gun in the middle of the night due to his perception there was an intruder. Third was the tweeted washing-machine noise incident ( But he never pulled the trigger, of course. )

If your "flat-mate" confronts you with a loaded pistol in the early hours of the morning it's stretching credibility that you wouldn't discuss it with them the next morning in the cold light of day.
So if we agree that is plausible, what might you say to OP ?
"FFS I thought you were going to kill me last night ....You want to be careful ....you could end up killing someone Oscar" or something similar.

Logically it follows, OP has discussed this intruder scenario with others before.
If that is plausible - then it's not going to take long to come up with the intruder scenario is it?

I would go further and say the Op macho cronies- like the ones we see in the Mozambique bar photos a few weeks after killing Reeva- or the ones shooting watermelons - have all had a good joke with OP about this kind of thing, being trigger happy, being reckless, for a long, long time prior to that February when it became deadly serious.

 

[Giles]

Hey guys, check it out:

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/09/27/judge-and-juror-vs-a-miscarriage-of-justice/

I had an opportunity to speak with Judge Chris Greenland via Skype last night and there is a link to the audio interview on my blog. He was extremely gracious and spoke with me for an hour and a half. It's a long audio (sorry), so grab a cup of coffee and kick back to listen.

Unfortunately Skype is not always totally reliable, so there are some areas where the Judge is a bit difficult to hear, and the first few minutes were a little awkward, but once we got past that we were able to dig in to some good conversation. I tried to get in as many questions as possible that related to topics we've been discussing here, and he was very honest in his answers. I hope you enjoy it.

P.S. I did not ask him about the belt on the jeans :giggle:

This is fantastic. Thank you so much.