awaiting sentencing phase

[WilliamMunter]

I'm looking forward to seeing who the DT call as mitigation witnesses other than family. Possibly his personal trainer Jannie Brooks, his horse trainer Mike Azzi, and ... oh, of course, his pastor who visits him at home. It will be more than interesting to see what friends, if any, are prepared to come forward. Jenna? Any suggestions?

I'm sure Uncle Arnold will want to say a few words.

 

[ckra1000]

I know this recent case can't be directly compared with OPs, but just look at the sentence this South African killer got for CH .....

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Convicted-killer-sentenced-to-community-service-20140930

Apologies if it's been posted before and I've missed it.

 

[sleuth-d-]

Would an intruder flush the loo? OP must have heard it flush so I would have thought it support's the prosecution case. At the very least, OP should have checked if it was Reeva in the loo. Perhaps it flushes silently.

it doesn't support the element of pt case that - just prior to the shooting - she was locked in the toilet for possibly 5 minutes screaming and arguing though.

having said that, i thought it was discussed here that a build up of bleach in the toilet [from previous flushes] could have acted as a resist to the blood. i.e the streaks could have been caused even without flushing. which sounded v reasonable.

barry b is also working on theories...

 

[Cherwell]

Would an intruder flush the loo? OP must have heard it flush so I would have thought it support's the prosecution case. At the very least, OP should have checked if it was Reeva in the loo. Perhaps it flushes silently.

it doesn't support the element of pt case that - just prior to the shooting - she was locked in the toilet for possibly 5 minutes screaming and arguing though.

If she did flush the loo, it doesn't rule out the argument theory. She could still have fled in there, locked the door, and hey, if she needed to go, why not?

It would rule out the idea that the door wasn't locked, though - unless something happened that suddenly escalated the situation. The trigger could have happened while she was in the toilet.

Either way, if she flushed, he had to have have known it was her in there.

 

[Zinn]

On the topic of the deleted calls, I wonder if this explains some of the inconsistencies between the DT's timeline and the PT's witness statements. It's unfortunate the court seemed to accept the timeline presented by the defense, considering some of it relied on phone records that are reported to have been modified. IMO, the early evening call to a former girlfriend is less concerning than calls and messages around the time of the shooting.

All of the above is just my opinion.

 

[Mr Fossil]

On the topic of the deleted calls, I wonder if this explains some of the inconsistencies between the DT's timeline and the PT's witness statements. It's unfortunate the court seemed to accept the timeline presented by the defense, considering some of it relied on phone records that are reported to have been modified. IMO, the early evening call to a former girlfriend is less concerning than calls and messages around the time of the shooting.

All of the above is just my opinion.

Call history (time and other party's number) should be a matter of record if it's from the service provider. Not sure what purpose deleting it off the phone would serve. Message data is another matter: we didn't get to see anything from OP's phone. We're told it was all deleted.

 

[AJ_DS]

If she did flush the loo, it doesn't rule out the argument theory. She could still have fled in there, locked the door, and hey, if she needed to go, why not?

It would rule out the idea that the door wasn't locked, though - unless something happened that suddenly escalated the situation. The trigger could have happened while she was in the toilet.

Either way, if she flushed, he had to have have known it was her in there.

I believe we should keep in mind that we ONLY have OP's word as per :

1- The toilet door key being in the toilet door lock on a permanent basis

2- Reeva having locked the toilet door

The SOLE element which enables the Defence argument about the sequence of events (i.e. gun first then bat) is that the toilet door was locked and that OP had no choice but to break it down.

Without that locked door scenario, the damage to the toilet door would be INEXPLICABLE in the context of a mistaken identity intruder version of events… one could NEVER place bat strikes AFTER gunshots which is essential in a mistaken identity version… and bat strikes BEFORE gunshots would destroy the mistaken identity story and point to a classic DV scene that escalated.

Absolutely NOTHING in the evidence corroborates OP's allegation that the toilet door was indeed locked.

The alternative version without a key and locked toilet door is quite simple :

- Reeva is scared and takes refuge in the toilet cubicle whilst screaming

- OP is enraged and bashes around in furious anger (toilet door, bath panel, wall tiles)

- Toilet door is damage

- Reeva is terrified she holds onto and pulls on the door handle whilst screaming even more terrified

- OP fires 1st shot : right hip… Reeva looses all motor function in her right leg, she collapses downward with hands still on the door handle for stability, right arm pressed against her chest

- OP fires 2nd shot : right arm… Reeva looses all motor function in her right arm, let's go of the door handle and falls backwards

- OP fires 3rd shot : it misses… Reeva shields her face and head with her left arm/hand

- OP fires 4th shot : left hand webbing and skull… Reeva collapses fully to the right, slumped over the toilet bowl

- OP must camouflage the damage caused by the cricket bat for the intruder story

- OP kicks the toilet door in attempts to bust out the panel

- OP inserts the cricket bat into prior damaged portions and uses it as a lever to crack the door panel

- The crack will always follow the path of least resistance (i.e. through a bullet hole which offers no resistance)

- OP tears out the panel completely

- OP fetches the key from the bedroom and places it the toilet door lock

 

[sleuth-d-]

Call history (time and other party's number) should be a matter of record if it's from the service provider. Not sure what purpose deleting it off the phone would serve. Message data is another matter: we didn't get to see anything from OP's phone. We're told it was all deleted.

removing message data from op's phone is only half of the job though. any [whatsapp] messages he sent or received would still be sitting on the other person's phone.

tricky bit is... if the messages have been deleted at op's phone, the other phone owner is the only other person who knows...

and of course, carlp had access to both his and op's phone during the wiping phase... i wonder what was on those 7775 records that were removed from the evidence bundle?

shame the police did not/cannot grab binge's phone and edkin's phone to check the whatsapp chats on them.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

You know guys, I love coming into this thread and it's a busy beehive of activity, gives me good vibes. :loveyou:

We won't forget Reeva even though it seems many have, it's been OP and his sob story all the way.

I'm remaining hopeful, there is still the sentencing to come, and if OP even has to serve one whole year in jail, it will be a victory. He'll have his prosthetic legs, a cell to himself, and plenty of time for self reflection. lease:

 

[sleuth-d-]

I believe we should keep in mind that we ONLY have OP's word as per :

1- The toilet door key being in the toilet door lock on a permanent basis

2- Reeva having locked the toilet door

The SOLE element which enables the Defence argument about the sequence of events (i.e. gun first then bat) is that the toilet door was locked and that OP had no choice but to break it down.

Without that locked door scenario, the damage to the toilet door would be INEXPLICABLE in the context of a mistaken identity intruder version of events… one could NEVER place bat strikes AFTER gunshots which is essential in a mistaken identity version… and bat strikes BEFORE gunshots would destroy the mistaken identity story and point to a classic DV scene that escalated.

Absolutely NOTHING in the evidence corroborates OP's allegation that the toilet door was indeed locked.

The alternative version without a key and locked toilet door is quite simple :

- Reeva is scared and takes refuge in the toilet cubicle whilst screaming

- OP is enraged and bashes around in furious anger (toilet door, bath panel, wall tiles)

- Toilet door is damage

- Reeva is terrified she holds onto and pulls on the door handle whilst screaming even more terrified

- OP fires 1st shot : right hip… Reeva looses all motor function in her right leg, she collapses downward with hands still on the door handle for stability, right arm pressed against her chest

- OP fires 2nd shot : right arm… Reeva looses all motor function in her right arm, let's go of the door handle and falls backwards

- OP fires 3rd shot : it misses… Reeva shields her face and head with her left arm/hand

- OP fires 4th shot : left hand webbing and skull… Reeva collapses fully to the right, slumped over the toilet bowl

- OP must camouflage the damage caused by the cricket bat for the intruder story

- OP kicks the toilet door in attempts to bust out the panel

- OP inserts the cricket bat into prior damaged portions and uses it as a lever to crack the door panel

- The crack will always follow the path of least resistance (i.e. through a bullet hole which offers no resistance)

- OP tears out the panel completely

- OP fetches the key from the bedroom and places it the toilet door lock

i like a lot of the thinking behind that.
a couple of questions... just for discussion:
1. at the first strikes [2?, 3?], why did he then stop hitting the door with the bat if he wanted to get inside? ... the door proved very easy to break into.
2. could reeva have managed the 4 or five minutes holding the door handle closed against op's far superior strength trying to overpower her from the other side?

 

[jay-jay]

I believe we should keep in mind that we ONLY have OP's word as per :

1- The toilet door key being in the toilet door lock on a permanent basis

2- Reeva having locked the toilet door

The SOLE element which enables the Defence argument about the sequence of events (i.e. gun first then bat) is that the toilet door was locked and that OP had no choice but to break it down.

Without that locked door scenario, the damage to the toilet door would be INEXPLICABLE in the context of a mistaken identity intruder version of events… one could NEVER place bat strikes AFTER gunshots which is essential in a mistaken identity version… and bat strikes BEFORE gunshots would destroy the mistaken identity story and point to a classic DV scene that escalated.

Absolutely NOTHING in the evidence corroborates OP's allegation that the toilet door was indeed locked.

The alternative version without a key and locked toilet door is quite simple :

- Reeva is scared and takes refuge in the toilet cubicle whilst screaming

- OP is enraged and bashes around in furious anger (toilet door, bath panel, wall tiles)

- Toilet door is damage

- Reeva is terrified she holds onto and pulls on the door handle whilst screaming even more terrified

- OP fires 1st shot : right hip… Reeva looses all motor function in her right leg, she collapses downward with hands still on the door handle for stability, right arm pressed against her chest

- OP fires 2nd shot : right arm… Reeva looses all motor function in her right arm, let's go of the door handle and falls backwards

- OP fires 3rd shot : it misses… Reeva shields her face and head with her left arm/hand

- OP fires 4th shot : left hand webbing and skull… Reeva collapses fully to the right, slumped over the toilet bowl

- OP must camouflage the damage caused by the cricket bat for the intruder story

- OP kicks the toilet door in attempts to bust out the panel

- OP inserts the cricket bat into prior damaged portions and uses it as a lever to crack the door panel

- The crack will always follow the path of least resistance (i.e. through a bullet hole which offers no resistance)

- OP tears out the panel completely

- OP fetches the key from the bedroom and places it the toilet door lock

I think that post is spot on, particularly in regard to the key.

 

[Cherwell]

I believe we should keep in mind that we ONLY have OP's word as per :

1- The toilet door key being in the toilet door lock on a permanent basis

2- Reeva having locked the toilet door

The SOLE element which enables the Defence argument about the sequence of events (i.e. gun first then bat) is that the toilet door was locked and that OP had no choice but to break it down.

(snipped for space)

Yes, I agree with all you say, I've long held the opinion that the door was not locked and the key was absent.

I just can't really see her using the loo unless the door was locked, not if there was a row going on.
Some say nobody would take a pee during an argument: I disagree with that because, for one thing, adrenalin can make a person need to urinate. You would need to feel safe though.

However, I have had another thought.
She may have flushed the toilet because the, er, previous user had left it unflushed! I certainly don't like to be confronted by other people's stale urine, or worse :yuck: and it's a reflex action with me to hit the flush lever in those circumstances.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I wonder if any of the deleted messages said something like "I shot her in a rage" or something equally damning. Still curious about all the messages received after the killing. Who else was complicit in this? Did Masipa know that CP had tampered with evidence... and if so, did she care? Or did she think that phone data was 'fickle' and that deleting data didn't prove intent to delete data??

The losers in this are the very people who waited 18 months for justice. Also, I don't believe in Karma. I've known some very bad people who were rotten to the core until they died. Some people just waltz through life, destroying everything in their wake, and are never held to account. OP seems to have been doing this for years, helped of course, by his 'loving' family.

Me neither, there are many who've murdered, abused and the like, even researching on this site there are a great number of unsolved crimes, someone has gotten away scot free.
I agree that he might have said he shot her in a rage, maybe even said she wouldn't shut up or something to that effect. We'll never know thanks to CP.

 

[jay-jay]

I believe we should keep in mind that we ONLY have OP's word as per :

1- The toilet door key being in the toilet door lock on a permanent basis

2- Reeva having locked the toilet door

~rsbm~

.. just going back to that bit of your post again, I found it absolutely astonishing that it was considered 'common cause' that the door was locked. I know that the PT had no proof that it wasn't, but by the same token, the DT had absolutely no proof that it was, either .. so why was OP's version just automatically accepted, rather than it just being left open? I'm having difficulty getting my head around why the PT seemed to have to prove everything .. the DT had to prove nothing, yet their version is always the one where the 'facts' are taken from, or deemed as 'common cause' .. they could basically say anything (and they have) and the PT would have to accept it unless they could disprove it, which just seems ridiculous to me .. if it can't be proven by either side, then it should just be considered as a 'we do not know the status of x, y, z at the time' (i.e. 'we do not know whether the door was locked or not at the time, because it cannot be proven one way or the other' instead of what we actually have is 'it is common cause that the door was locked').

Quite honestly, I don't think it even crossed the PT's minds that the door might not actually have been locked, I just don't think that any of them in their justice system have got sleuthing minds.

 

[Mr Fossil]

removing message data from op's phone is only half of the job though. any [whatsapp] messages he sent or received would still be sitting on the other person's phone.

tricky bit is... if the messages have been deleted at op's phone, the other phone owner is the only other person who knows...

and of course, carlp had access to both his and op's phone during the wiping phase... i wonder what was on those 7775 records that were removed from the evidence bundle?

shame the police did not/cannot grab binge's phone and edkin's phone to check the whatsapp chats on them.

Exactly. Somebody else has to be complicit in all this, not just Carl, if the WhatsApp messages were the trigger that led to OP killing Reeva.

 

[AJ_DS]

i like a lot of the thinking behind that.
a couple of questions... just for discussion:
1. at the first strikes [2?, 3?], why did he then stop hitting the door with the bat if he wanted to get inside? ... the door proved very easy to break into.
2. could reeva have managed the 4 or five minutes holding the door handle closed against op's far superior strength trying to overpower her from the other side?

I believe we should not interpret the bat strikes as OP wanting to get into the toilet cubicle to get to Reeva.

The wall tiles and bath panel are a clear indication that access to the toilet cubicle was NOT the intended goal.

OP psychological profile and testimonies about his personality shows him to be a coward : all bark and no bite… I would not be surprised if OP has never fought anybody… a real fight.

OP would be incapable of physically assaulting anyone : he will yell, threaten, puff up his chest, throw a tantrum, etc…

OP did not want to reach Reeva because he would not be able to hit her or manhandle her… he wanted Reeva to leave and stop screaming… OP was frustrated, furious and embarrassed… he bashed around the bathroom to intimidate Reeva and vent anger.

Just as someone can punch a hole through a wall or break dinner plates during an argument… the goal is not to access something hidden inside the wall or create the need to buy new dinnerware… the purpose is to vent anger and frustration.

The fact that OP chose to silence Reeva by shooting her through a closed door is anther clear indication of his cowardliness : he could only inflict violence and pain as long as he did not have to see it

 

[lithgow1]

You know guys, I love coming into this thread and it's a busy beehive of activity, gives me good vibes. :loveyou:

We won't forget Reeva even though it seems many have, it's been OP and his sob story all the way.

I'm remaining hopeful, there is still the sentencing to come, and if OP even has to serve one whole year in jail, it will be a victory. He'll have his prosthetic legs, a cell to himself, and plenty of time for self reflection. lease:

I'm also hoping for at least some prison time, partly because I think he is so desperate to not spend any time there at all that he may well appeal, against all advice, and things may well work out worse for him if he takes that route.

Sadly I'm in agreement with those who don't believe in karma. Would like to, but too many 'bad' people prosper so unless it takes a form unrecognisable to us I can't put any hope or faith in it. If there's no prison sentence the only punishment I can see for OP is a tortured subconscious that haunts his dreams as he doesn't seem too burdened by conscience at any other time.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I have never used Whatsapp and know diddly-squat about it but surely all of his whatsapps to RS remained on her phone together with her answers. That may have been the reason he tried to use RS's phone but he couldn't get past the lock code. He must know you can phone an emergency facility on an iphone so his excuse for not being able to do so was another one of his lame lies. So what was on his phone that he didn't want anyone to find out. Whatsapps between girlfriends and he which may have shown his infidelity? What else would make him wish to erase the contents? Any ideas?

 

[AJ_DS]

… and of course, Reeva had no reason to believe that OP would not attempt to open the toilet door and harm her … in fact OP's behavior and the bat strikes to the toilet door gave her more than enough reasons to hold on to the door handle to prevent OP from getting at her.

… that door was the only thing separating her from a madman...

… so she held on for dear life to the door handle and screamed for help

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I'm looking forward to seeing who the DT call as mitigation witnesses other than family. Possibly his personal trainer Jannie Brooks, his horse trainer Mike Azzi, and ... oh, of course, his pastor who visits him at home. It will be more than interesting to see what friends, if any, are prepared to come forward. Jenna? Any suggestions?

Fresno, ahem, I think not, lol. Didn't CP tweet a threatening message to/about Fresno and quickly deleted it? smh Maybe, the social worker, she'd be in circle of friends now, it was probably her mission anyway. ugh