AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #12

[Mjskit]

Did they? LE does have limited power to issue an emergency protective order and that is in connection with a domestic violence accusation (and LE finds evidence of DV), but those typically last only a day or two, until the other parent files for a dv restraining order.

Oh, I see what you're asking. Sorry. Okay, what I'm saying is there is no "order" at all. There may be conditions to allowing the children to remain with one parent, which includes that parent ensuring no contact with the other (a safety plan), but it is being interpreted as an "order" by the media, for lack of a better word.

But if there isn't an open juvenile dependency case and the children are not in protective custody, how can CPS prevent the dangerous parent from having contact? They really can't, which is why I think the children may have actually been placed into state care, but released physically, to the other parent. That is more than a safety plan alone.



IMO, cases where a child this age disappears at the hands of a parent when the parents are still together and one parent does not disappear with the child, are due to abuse - sexual abuse that becomes so bad it cannot be hidden or there is a threat from the child to tell, so the abuser intentionally kills the child to hide the abuse, or physical abuse that leads to death.

I don't believe in the "there was an accident so I inexplicably made things worse by faking an abduction and assuming, even though no loving parent does, that my child cannot be saved, regardless of how dead they appear" theory.

I also don't believe in the selling one's child to a vast, underground sex ring. And I don't believe that parents who are not heavily involved in drugs and extremely poor, sell their kids for drugs.

Also, I think the "my kid was kidnapped for drug retribution" thing only happens to the very heavily addicted, involved-in-drug trafficking parents. Neither of these parents have the physical signs of serious drug use that would accompany such a thing, nor the lifestyle.

Finally, setting up an abduction for some sort of monetary reward of some kind only happens in the movies. Man on Fire is fiction. :moo:

Yes. To get a NO CONTACT ORDER it takes a JUDGE. However, if CPS says no contact and contact does happen, then CPS can file a petition and get a judge to issue the no contact order. If the person violates the order they can be arrested. If a petition is filed (this happened in the Aliayah Lunsford case when the children were removed from the home) then parental rights can be terminated if the parents do not cooperate fully with CPS and the judges orders.
My understanding is this 1. The children can be removed immediately, without filing a petition, if the children are in imminent danger and a hearing has to be held within 48 hours. 2. CPS can implement a safety plan requiring whatever they feel reasonable without a judges order. The parents retain custody though, for the state to take custody CPS has to have a court order. (see #1) 3. Part of the safety plan could be that the custodial parent would be required to file in family court for said custody. I had to do that for my granddaughter. However, circuit court is over family court and a circuit court judge can overrule what the family court judge decides so one just as well go straight to circuit court.

 

[jennapuppy]

Okay makes a lot more sense now... Except, both boys were interviewed some time ago ? So,it could be that one or both of the boys knows a lot more than they are saying about Isabel's disappearance ? And they have withheld that info ?

Wow...it almost sounds like someone will be getting fitted for an orange jumpsuit soon ?

I'm thinking along those lines, as well. Didn't the boys return to school for the first time since the disappearance just last week? Perhaps one of the boys confided to a friend or teacher wrt being in fear of one of the parents. Or, perhaps they even went so far as to divulge some details about the disappearance that they had been afraid to tell LE as long as the feared parent was around. Maybe this friend's parent/teacher contacted LE, and this step was taken so the boys can open up without fear of retribution.

 

[amysmom]

IF one (or both) of the boys have a juvi record we would not know about it correct? Not implying anything just asking a Q.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I agree. Hers are definitely more concerning. I am distressed over all of the dismissals, though. Makes me wonder if there were/are things that have been expunged. They seem to have pretty good luck having charges dismissed, what's a few records made permanently "disappeared"?

I do still think we will hear that SC is the parent with no contact. MOO. This whole thing is icky poo pee pee pants.


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Getting that stuff dismissed is what I do for a living, it is not notable here in Tucson/Pima County, we have a VERY LIBERAL diversion program that gets charges dismissed if you take classes, do community service, pay fines and do rehab etc. First and SOMETIMES second offenders will be offered this at arraignment by city prosecutors to get a guilty plea and avoid trial, the courts are FULL and they do everything they can to move these cases quickly.


I actually specialize in DUI defense (I know, flog me, but people make mistakes and I do what I can to get them back home to their loved ones, I do not represent major repeat offenders though.)

 

[PAXIMUS]

IF one (or both) of the boys have a juvi record we would not know about it correct? Not implying anything just asking a Q.

Sealed information.

 

[FrayedKnot]

Was that the one she was driving under infl w/child in car? I'll go back and look again. Thanks

Maybe......

It was az 13-3623 which is Child or Vulnerable adult abuse

It covers many things, but yes, may have been dui w/ child....

http://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/03623.html

"A. Under circumstances likely to produce death or serious physical injury, any person who causes a child or vulnerable adult to suffer physical injury or, having the care or custody of a child or vulnerable adult, who causes or permits the person or health of the child or vulnerable adult to be injured or who causes or permits a child or vulnerable adult to be placed in a situation where the person or health of the child or vulnerable adult is endangered is guilty of an offense as follows:

1. If done intentionally or knowingly, the offense is a class 2 felony and if the victim is under fifteen years of age it is punishable pursuant to section 13-705.

2. If done recklessly, the offense is a class 3 felony.

3. If done with criminal negligence, the offense is a class 4 felony.

B. Under circumstances other than those likely to produce death or serious physical injury to a child or vulnerable adult, any person who causes a child or vulnerable adult to suffer physical injury or abuse or, having the care or custody of a child or vulnerable adult, who causes or permits the person or health of the child or vulnerable adult to be injured or who causes or permits a child or vulnerable adult to be placed in a situation where the person or health of the child or vulnerable adult is endangered is guilty of an offense as follows:

1. If done intentionally or knowingly, the offense is a class 4 felony.

2. If done recklessly, the offense is a class 5 felony.

3. If done with criminal negligence, the offense is a class 6 felony."

Could that describe DUI with child?




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[PAXIMUS]

Getting that stuff dismissed is what I do for a living, it is not notable here in Tucson/Pima County, we have a VERY LIBERAL diversion program that gets charges dismissed if you take classes, do community service, pay fines and do rehab etc. First and SOMETIMES second offenders will be offered this at arraignment by city prosecutors to get a guilty plea and avoid trial, the courts are FULL and they do everything they can to move these cases quickly.


I actually specialize in DUI defense (I know, flog me, but people make mistakes and I do what I can to get them back home to their loved ones, I do not represent major repeat offenders though.)

Just wanted to add that the above bolded DID apply at the time of their offenses but not so much now, since the tea party has taken over our state legislature Arizona now has the toughest DUI laws in the entire nation and first offense WILL get you some jail time.

 

[FrayedKnot]

Getting that stuff dismissed is what I do for a living, it is not notable here in Tucson/Pima County, we have a VERY LIBERAL diversion program that gets charges dismissed if you take classes, do community service, pay fines and do rehab etc. First and SOMETIMES second offenders will be offered this at arraignment by city prosecutors to get a guilty plea and avoid trial, the courts are FULL and they do everything they can to move these cases quickly.


I actually specialize in DUI defense (I know, flog me, but people make mistakes and I do what I can to get them back home to their loved ones, I do not represent major repeat offenders though.)

Aha! Good to know! Now although you do not represent major repeat offenders, would other attorneys not only take the cases but also have any chance of having a third or fourth offense dismissed?

I gotta go back and look, but it seems like there were a least a handful......admittedly, I am not court doc fluent. At all.


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[PAXIMUS]

Maybe......

It was az 13-3623 which is Child or Vulnerable adult abuse

It covers many things, but yes, may have been dui w/ child....

http://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/03623.html

"A. Under circumstances likely to produce death or serious physical injury, any person who causes a child or vulnerable adult to suffer physical injury or, having the care or custody of a child or vulnerable adult, who causes or permits the person or health of the child or vulnerable adult to be injured or who causes or permits a child or vulnerable adult to be placed in a situation where the person or health of the child or vulnerable adult is endangered is guilty of an offense as follows:

1. If done intentionally or knowingly, the offense is a class 2 felony and if the victim is under fifteen years of age it is punishable pursuant to section 13-705.

2. If done recklessly, the offense is a class 3 felony.

3. If done with criminal negligence, the offense is a class 4 felony.

B. Under circumstances other than those likely to produce death or serious physical injury to a child or vulnerable adult, any person who causes a child or vulnerable adult to suffer physical injury or abuse or, having the care or custody of a child or vulnerable adult, who causes or permits the person or health of the child or vulnerable adult to be injured or who causes or permits a child or vulnerable adult to be placed in a situation where the person or health of the child or vulnerable adult is endangered is guilty of an offense as follows:

1. If done intentionally or knowingly, the offense is a class 4 felony.

2. If done recklessly, the offense is a class 5 felony.

3. If done with criminal negligence, the offense is a class 6 felony."

Could that describe DUI with child?




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The charge was DUI/Vapors/Open Container and Endangerment, the vapors is the smell of marijuana in the car or on the person by the officer, usually.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Okay makes a lot more sense now... Except, both boys were interviewed some time ago ? So,it could be that one or both of the boys knows a lot more than they are saying about Isabel's disappearance ? And they have withheld that info ?

Wow...it almost sounds like someone will be getting fitted for an orange jumpsuit soon ?

And getting ready for his close-up, errr... mugshot. Oh, the Susan Hayward of it all :dramaqueen:

 

[katydid23]

I'm thinking along those lines, as well. Didn't the boys return to school for the first time since the disappearance just last week? Perhaps one of the boys confided to a friend or teacher wrt being in fear of one of the parents. Or, perhaps they even went so far as to divulge some details about the disappearance that they had been afraid to tell LE as long as the feared parent was around. Maybe this friend's parent/teacher contacted LE, and this step was taken so the boys can open up without fear of retribution.

I think this could be on track. Also, as someone upthread was discussing the voices early that morning. What if one of the boys got up to use the bathroom, and found dad messing with the window screen. They may have spoken to each other briefly along the lines of " Dad, what are you doing?" " Nothing son, just fixing this window...go back to sleep..."

That would have thrown a huge wrench into things...the kid would have felt cornered and in the middle.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Aha! Good to know! Now although you do not represent major repeat offenders, would other attorneys not only take the cases but also have any chance of having a third or fourth offense dismissed?

I gotta go back and look, but it seems like there were a least a handful......admittedly, I am not court doc fluent. At all.


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At the time of their offense things were a lot more liberal, TODAY we have the toughest DUI laws in the nation, first offense and you get at least a week in jail and a MANDATORY breathing device on your car so it wont start if you blow in to it with alcohol in your system, that device is on there for a year.

It is possible back then that one could have had 2nd or third dismissed but unusual, if they had a very good attorney and did what the judge asked of them that MIGHT happen but I did not see that she had more than one DUI and I think he had one or two but I didnt sleuth their cases that closely.

 

[FrayedKnot]

Thanks again, Paximus. I saw you already answered my question about repeat offenses. And how the sentencing has changed. .


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[FrayedKnot]

And getting ready for his close-up, errr... mugshot. Oh, the Susan Hayward of it all :dramaqueen:

With face by Max Factor. Love that PanCake!


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[JDB]

ITA!!!
And another EXCEPTIONAL post by CN2Souls from an earlier thread to add to this:
******************************************************
Anyone Notice what the neighbor DIDN"T hear???

She did not hear at 8:00 when Isa was found to be missing from her room with the window open right next to the neighbor’s window,

She did not hear anyone shouting Isa's name as they were looking for her...

I know myself if I walked in one of my children’s room and the window was Wide open and the screen out

I would have stuck my head out the window and screamed my daughters name several times...

As would I be walking around the outside of the house screaming her name....

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
*******************************************************

I couldn't forget this post....

Things that make you go HMMMMM
I know after the 89 Loma Prieta quake my wife and I could not find our 5 year old who was playing outside at the time. We were both yelling as loud as we could his name. Found him on top of our mobile home . All he said was dad the ground was shaking so I climbed up onto the roof. Made sense to me as a 5 year old would think laffin

 

[curiousc]

I am trying so hard to wrap my head around this.

Say, for instance, Sergio is involved in Isa's disappearance. What the heck happened in order for him to do this?

They go to a baseball game and come home around 10 or 11. Chances are the boys, being a bit older and who are boys, stayed up later than Isa. Say Isa does go to bed and falls asleep in her room.

So what happened between then and 8 a.m.? What would have made him do something? What the heck happened?

She is sleeping and not doing a thing wrong. What would be the motivation for making her disappear or perhaps causing her harm in the middle of the night?

Then, thinking about it even more, no one heard a thing that night if something did happen to Isa? The boys' room is right beside Isa's. UNLESS, the boys did hear something.

And did the Mom know if Sergio was in bed all night? And if Sergio was not, would she have not got up at some point to see where he was? I am not a very sound sleeper and I would know if my hubby got up out of bed in the middle of the night.

Something is strange here. And I am thinking, if Sergio is involved, those boys or mom know more than we think.

ETA: What gets me is we also heard the boys were interviewed earlier on and the parents allowed it. Each of them have not lawyered up and they allowed one-on-one interviews in the house with the detectives. This is where I am stumped too and it makes me stay on the fence.

 

[Boodles]

Does anyone have any information on the ER vs Rebecca and Sergio civil(?) case of 2003?

I have been trying to figure this out...without any luck.

 

[FrayedKnot]

The charge was DUI/Vapors/Open Container and Endangerment, the vapors is the smell of marijuana in the car or on the person by the officer, usually.

Wait- so does DUI/Vapors/OC fall under that same code number? The 13-3623?
Sorry to be so thick....


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[liz b.]

And getting ready for his close-up, errr... mugshot. Oh, the Susan Hayward of it all :dramaqueen:

Oh oh...someone better look out..Bette's in full fragging mode ... ROFL...

 

[PAXIMUS]

I still think it may be a reach that Sergio being removed from the house and not allowed any contact automatically means he is involved in her disappearance, it may not or may not, I wouldnt read much in to it as people react strangely with a lot of pressure on them, I believe this as domestic violence related to he and Becky not getting along well, this could be the result of the stress and pressure of the case or it (more likely) is something that has been ongoing with them even before the case as they do not seem like a very close couple IMO, she never looks at him very fondly when they are together, doesnt look at him at all in fact always looking down and almost ashamed, Becky.