AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #17

[Whisperer]

We always have more recyle than trash...that is why the trash can holds one, possibly two trash bags. The recycle is huge. If you want and use a larage trash can, it's gonna cost ya...

 

[johnQpublic]

Hypothetically speaking.... Assuming someone did go over the wall, lets say Uncle J all he would need to do is park his jeep out front and jump over the wall... Getting in and out of this property doe's not look like any sort of rocket science would be needed unless you were a teacup chuwawa. Also we are not sure if its the front kids room or the middle kids room where Isa stayed. I find it very hard to beleave someone would have gotten in and out of the property without a dog at least barking in the middle of the night and waking SC or the boys up... I'm really starting to venture into the very much likelyhood that this involved Sergio or Uncle Justin or both but I also slightly wonder about Uncle Louis but I'm more leaning on SC and JM.. Remember LE said " It's not what we know or think its what we can prove in court " but i'm also still not so certain Isa is dead but rather perhaps at one of JM's vacation locations... in FL, WA, N.AZ or even Mexico BUT yah never know.

 

[Jules71]

Has anyone put together a timeline of what we know? (I am still trying to catch up on everything.)

What time RC left for work?
What time RC arrived at work?
What time RC's shift was scheduled to start that day?
What time SC went to wake up Isa?
What time SC's 911 call came in?
What time neighbor & male minor child's 911 call came in?
What time RC arrived back at home?

I am also of the opinion that RC had not even been in the house yet when she got on the phone with 911 after her son handed her the phone. It seems like the neighbor drove the son back to his house (he says something like see right there where the kid is outside). So they stop and he gets out of the neighbors car and is talking to 911 and saying his Mom "just came home from work" and asking her what Isa was wearing. Then he hands her the phone. I think she must be walking in the house as SC says in his call to 911 that his wife just got home and is talking to someone on the phone. I think it's weird she said she looked everywhere.

Also when she says "the door is locked to outside", I think she might be referring to that wooden door that goes into the front yard (that does not look like the actual front door of the house). Maybe as she is talking on the phone to 911 she is checking that door? Does she park in the garage and usually enter/exit the house thru the interior garage door?

 

[Whisperer]

I get the impression that Sergio runs the house. Becky is the breadwinner.

 

[pieper4]

I see there is conflicting info about which of two types (three including variations of recycling containers) are behind the Celis' home. Maybe this will help? First image is of the rolling residential bins

.

Second is of the multi-family round containers always left in the alleys

.

You can climb on either, but both types have fairly flimsy lids so weight would be a factor. Those rolling can lids are particularly prone to cracking and breaking. The multi-home containers have domed lids. I posted a pic last night of one of those (from another city, but same container).

 

[callyn]

I wish I could blow up the original floor plan...not that stick drawing they want us to look at. I have it on full screen but I can't make it out. Darn, I want that floor plan! Every window and door is marked. Lots more stuff that we never saw before.

I made a screenshot of that floorplan, but when I tried to make things out on it I really couldn't tell what was what, there is so much writing and lines etc. on it.

Did you notice on the other, simple floorplan that there are NO doors on the boy's bedroom? lol, there may be times that would be good....

 

[Whisperer]

If sergio sleeps in the den, he has multple access to the inside and outside of the house. I suspect that is where he sleeps. Isa's room is directly next to the den and they share a wall.

Isa could have been secreted out of the house in the back by Sergio. It would not be necessary to use Isa's window...as he is right next to the back gate. She could have been passed through the gate to a waiting car.

If one of the parents left the den unlocked, a stranger could have entered also but the dogs would prevent a stranger from doing so....

So far, there are four doors leading into the home.

 

[elmomom]

I get the impression that Sergio runs the house. Becky is the breadwinner.

I think their salaries are fairly equivalent. She works four 12 hour days a week most likely, and he most likely works early Am through early afternoon - something like 7 AM to 3 PM is quite common for a surgical practice, 5 days a week. To me, it seems he may be more responsible for child care and things like dinner, than she may be, based on their most likely work schedule.

 

[Whisperer]

I made a screenshot of that floorplan, but when I tried to make things out on it I really couldn't tell what was what, there is so much writing and lines etc. on it.

Did you notice on the other, simple floorplan that there are NO doors on the boy's bedroom? lol, there may be times that would be good....

Yes.

I'm very good at reading maps and floorplans. I need large fonts, as my eyes are very bad. There is a lot more to this house than that stupid child's plan they released. It is better than nothing and that's about all I can say.

 

[liz b.]

I looked it up and this is what she said on NGs show but she also said the same thing in other inteviews.


STARDEVANT: No, I didn`t. They stay indoors with me until I get up. And I knew that she was barking at the male voices, and so I just told her to be quiet and go back to sleep, unfortunately. And I did the same. I didn`t get up. I didn`t get up. I didn`t think it was unusual because it was daylight outside, and it was -- I thought someone was walking around for a morning walk.

GRACE: OK. Now, that`s interesting...

STARDEVANT: So I just went right back to sleep.

GRACE: Had you ever heard male voices outside? Because, see, if I heard male voices right outside my window, I would be concerned because I wouldn`t be used to hearing that. In Manhattan, you know, you hear fire trucks and police cars and traffic horns, but a male voice, that would surprise me. So do you typically -- can you hear voices typically outside your bedroom window?

GRACE: That`s something that I probably should`ve paid more attention to because this breezeway between my house and theirs, no one ever uses it. They have no reason to use it except for me because my entrance is in the back of the alley. So I should have thought that was a little odd because I`ve never heard voices outside my window before. I`m the only one that walks through here. But I should have paid more attention.

GRACE: Actually, you know what, Alicia? What you did here is invaluable. So you hear male voices. What leads you to think they were English-speaking voices? Did you make out any of the words said?

STARDEVANT: I didn`t. I wasn`t paying a lot of attention. I was really tired.

GRACE: Yes.

STARDEVANT: I remember hearing English, I think. You know, again, I wasn`t paying a lot of attention. But it didn`t seem like it was a language that I wouldn`t understand, that I didn`t understand.

GRACE: Do you recall any of...

STARDEVANT: I really do think it was English voices.

GRACE: ... the words? What were they saying?

STARDEVANT: No, I don`t recall anything. It sounded to me like they were having a conversation. No yelling, no screaming, no struggling, just that they were having a conversation.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/26/ng.01.html

OBE,
This is fascinating...because I would swear, I mean,swear that I remember her saying that she could not make out whether it was english or spanish.... It was on a video interview, I'm thinking...

Also, I am very sure that she stated that they were speaking "in low voices "...

Interesting...but,it actually wouldn't surprise me all that much if she changed her story... JMO

ETA : for example, she states to NG that she thought it was just someone going for a walk outside her window.Then she states that no one but her uses that breezeway ...huh ???

 

[gitana1]

Can I ask if there is anyone on this thread that is convinced that the parents did it, that ALSO believes that the Ramsey's (as in Jon Benet's parents) were NOT guilty?
Just for the pure sake of my own curiousity....

As for me, I now think the Ramsey's were innocent, although not in the beginning, and I am yet to be convinced that the Celis's are guilty....

At first I felt strongly that Isabel's parents were not involved. Now it really seems likely to me that the dad may be. In the Ramsey case, I was certain at first that the parents were involved. Now, I'm not so sure. They did almost everything that indicates guilt, in my book. But I truly believe that many of the rich are different. Very different from most people (in general/stereotype alert) when it comes to how they deal with their children or something like this.

Also, I felt certain angles, like the Santa angle, (family friend Bill McReynolds) are good possibilities: Jon Benet said Santa was coming that night, Christmas night, not Christmas eve, to bring her a surprise. He gave her a note Christmas day, which was later found in her trash, that said she would get a surprise after Christmas. He had dressed like Santa that day and talked to all the kids, he acted weird at a memorial for Jon Benet and his wife had written a play, IIRC, decades before about a child who was tortured and killed in her basement. He had a key to the house.

Okay the majority seem to be open to the theory that Sergio is guilty of something. So let's say hypothetically that he harmed her ( or hate to say it but killed her) between the time she went to bed and the time he called 911. That means one of the following happened.

1. Her body is still in the home ( ruled out, police and dog searched).
2. He left the home at night with her body and returned before any other family members awoke
3. He left the home with her body in the morning between the time RC went to work and the time he called 911.
4. He had an accomplice come and retrieve her body at night.
5. He had an accomplice come and retrieve her body between RC leaving for work and the time he called 911.
6. RC was his accomplice and removed the body as she left for work.

Curious as to which everyone thinks is most plausible.
MOO if his car was out and about ANY time between bedtime and 911, some pedestrian, driver, or camera has noticed it. That would be my question for LE at the presser, not that they would answer, but "is there any evidence suggesting that SC left his home in between bedtime and the 911 call?" and the follow up " is there any evidence that another car came to and left the Celis home during that same time frame?"

2 and then more remotely, 3, are what I think, if Sergio is involved.

Those are the hours in May where LE transcribed the tape....note the dates IN MAY next to the times

There are no timestamps on the official transcript
http://cms3.tucsonaz.gov/files/poli..._911_audio_ref_isabel_celis_investigation.pdf

Oops! Thank you!

IMO- Not related. See link please.

http://www.kvoa.com/news/bones-found-at-site-of-former-deanza-drive-in-not-related-to-celis/

Thank you also. It's so easy for rumors to spread. Glad it's not true!!!!

 

[Whisperer]

I think their salaries are fairly equivalent. She works four 12 hour days a week most likely, and he most likely works early Am through early afternoon - something like 7 AM to 3 PM is quite common for a surgical practice, 5 days a week. To me, it seems he may be more responsible for child care and things like dinner, than she may be, based on their most likely work schedule.

I tend to agree with you.

....but I think he is a dental assistant...not too grand of pay in that AFAIK. I don't even know if he works full time. My guess is his singing is his priority.

 

[Prof]

I wish I could blow up the original floor plan...not that stick drawing they want us to look at. I have it on full screen but I can't make it out. Darn, I want that floor plan! Every window and door is marked. Lots more stuff that we never saw before.

This is probably not any better...

 

[txanmom]

Has anyone put together a timeline of what we know? (I am still trying to catch up on everything.)

What time RC left for work?
Per the 911 calls around 7am
What time RC arrived at work?
don't know
What time RC's shift was scheduled to start that day?
per a poster way back in beginning *possible rumor* 8am
What time SC went to wake up Isa?
per LE/911 call 8am
What time SC's 911 call came in?
per scanner thread 8:14am
What time neighbor & male minor child's 911 call came in?
this we are still trying to figure out
What time RC arrived back at home?
guestimate on my part per 8:14 am 911 call + 8 or so minutes SC and JR on call 8:22am (JMO SPECULATION)

I am also of the opinion that RC had not even been in the house yet when she got on the phone with 911 after her son handed her the phone. It seems like the neighbor drove the son back to his house (he says something like see right there where the kid is outside). So they stop and he gets out of the neighbors car and is talking to 911 and saying his Mom "just came home from work" and asking her what Isa was wearing. Then he hands her the phone. I think she must be walking in the house as SC says in his call to 911 that his wife just got home and is talking to someone on the phone. I think it's weird she said she looked everywhere.
I agree it is strange, but it doesn't really make me single her out - IMO she sounds genuine
Also when she says "the door is locked to outside", I think she might be referring to that wooden door that goes into the front yard (that does not look like the actual front door of the house). Maybe as she is talking on the phone to 911 she is checking that door? Does she park in the garage and usually enter/exit the house thru the interior garage door?

good point

rbbm in answer to your questions about what I have discovered/read.

 

[Whisperer]

Now that I see Sergio slept close to the wide gated fence in the back, it opens up more possibilities.

 

[Pensfan]

I realize that the method of handling and location of the body dump gives LE clues about killer, but LE specifically stated to leave the searching to them. (Please don't ask me to find this link. ). What made LE state this?

If a family member killed Isabel, her body is more likely to be well hidden. (Psycho stalker killers and serial killers frequently don't try too hard to conceal the victim's body.) One would think LE would want volunteer help if the body might be more difficult to find.

 

[Whisperer]

Thanks, prof...now I have to add another entrance. It appears there is a sliding door to the porch also...that makes FIVE doors.

 

[elmomom]

I tend to agree with you.

....but I think he is a dental assistant...not too grand of pay in that AFAIK. I don't even know if he works full time. My guess is his singing is his priority.

Not a dental assistant, he is a surgical assistant in an oral surgeon's practice. Here, that would be in the 50 to 70k range, as would be an RN with a 2 year degree.

 

[Hatfield]

OBE,
This is fascinating...because I would swear, I mean,swear that I remember her saying that she could not make out whether it was english or spanish.... It was on a video interview, I'm thinking...

Also, I am very sure that she stated that they were speaking "in low voices "...

Interesting...but,it actually wouldn't surprise me all that much if she changed her story... JMO

ETA : for example, she states to NG that she thought it was just someone going for a walk outside her window.Then she states that no one but her uses that breezeway ...huh ???

I'm kinda wondering if that lady is the "old biddy" that keeps calling CPS on them all the time-LOL. Sorry, that was uncalled for, but a good opportunity to just say that I'm going with the theory that they did hide the child from a perceived threat (either CPS or some other threat).

I want to hold onto any theory where there is a chance that she is still alive.

 

[liz b.]

okay the majority seem to be open to the theory that sergio is guilty of something. So let's say hypothetically that he harmed her ( or hate to say it but killed her) between the time she went to bed and the time he called 911. That means one of the following happened.

1. Her body is still in the home ( ruled out, police and dog searched).
2. He left the home at night with her body and returned before any other family members awoke
3. He left the home with her body in the morning between the time rc went to work and the time he called 911.
4. He had an accomplice come and retrieve her body at night.
5. He had an accomplice come and retrieve her body between rc leaving for work and the time he called 911.
6. Rc was his accomplice and removed the body as she left for work.

Curious as to which everyone thinks is most plausible.
Moo if his car was out and about any time between bedtime and 911, some pedestrian, driver, or camera has noticed it. That would be my question for le at the presser, not that they would answer, but "is there any evidence suggesting that sc left his home in between bedtime and the 911 call?" and the follow up " is there any evidence that another car came to and left the celis home during that same time frame?"

#6.... Moo