AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #22

[oceanblueeyes]

I agree that driving drunk is bad. But let's say a total WHAT if this was coming home from a family BBQ, had her first child in the car, somewhat new and young mom, maybe had two beers in a one beer time frame...still a bad and dangerous choice, but would that make her a high risk or child murder?
We don't know if she had six shots of tequila and was running to the liquor store for more, or if she had a margarita and a half at a kids birthday party. I can't say that charge makes her high risk because I don't know the circumstances, it is never okay but it could be a stupid forgivable mistake.

I have forgotten what year that happened...Do you remember? I was thinking it happened when the oldest son (14) was young and as far as I know she wasnt involved in an accident with her son in the car unless I missed it.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Yep. But the point is no one knew what the Ramsey family was "really" like. From outward appearances they looked to have it all, adore their children, want for nothing.

So to look at the Celis family and think we know them and know what goes on (or went on) in that house behind closed doors... well... no, we don't. And the people who know them don't know either.

But that certainly doesnt mean that anything untoward was going on behind closed doors either. I have always felt that is like using a negative when trying to prove a positive.

Imo, the Celis family doesnt remind me of the Ramseys whatsoever.

JMO

 

[joedotnet]

I have forgotten what year that happened...Do you remember? I was thinking it happened when the oldest son (14) was young and as far as I know she wasnt involved in an accident with her son in the car unless I missed it.

IMO

She LUCKILY wasn't in an accident with her son in the car.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I mean out of the blue compared to other high profile cases. Casey had been lying and looking for ways to avoid parental responsibility, SA was a horror movie obsessed strange guy in the H Dunn case, EB had a history or abuse towards ZB, etc etc.. What I meant is that we have heard no mention of past maltreatment or abuse of the Celis children from anyone, nor have we heard of verified strange obsessions or hobbies.
I am not saying that based in what we DON'T know, I am saying it based on what we DO know. We haven't seen pictures on FB, neighborood witnesses, verified reports of the parents doing or saying or acting any way that throws up red flags ( until the 911 call..)
The CPS incident is enough for an arrest, LE said not to make too much of it in regards to the case, so while I am curious as the next person as to what it is about, I don't think it is a case-solving bombshell.
My point was not that it is impossible that the parents are involved, my point was that IMO the Celis family APPEARS to be a low risk, normal family, and for that reason I personally feel hesitant to assume them responsible.

ITA!

Based on what we DO know I have not seen any evidence to support that either Celis parent is involved in Isa's kidnapping.

And until I see some actual substantiated evidence ... I will not say they are responsible when I have absolutely nothing to base it on.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

She LUCKILY wasn't in an accident with her son in the car.

Has it happened since the first time when her oldest son was small?

I agree. I dont drink. I am always the designated driver if we have friends who are going to dinner who are going to have a drink.

IMO

 

[makayla]

Just saw this article online when I was checking on the status of this case:

http://www.azpm.org/news/story/2012/6/4/1558-police-on-missing-tucson-girl-there-are-suspects/

 

[Knox]

But that certainly doesnt mean that anything untoward was going on behind closed doors either. I have always felt that is like using a negative when trying to prove a positive.

Imo, the Celis family doesnt remind me of the Ramseys whatsoever.

JMO

BBM- Correct me if I'm wrong, but you yourself site cases to prove your point all the time. Why is siting the JBR case, as Madeleine74 did, any different than what you do?

 

[Jules71]

Just saw this article online when I was checking on the status of this case:

http://www.azpm.org/news/story/2012/6/4/1558-police-on-missing-tucson-girl-there-are-suspects/

“Right now we’re at a point where we are following investigative paths that keep us quite busy,” Villaseñor says. “We think that this was an abduction of some kind, so obviously that infers that there are suspects that we are looking at, or people of interest that we're looking at.”

So if they thought the SC or BC disappeared their daughter they would not call it an abduction? Is that right?

ETA - This quote sounds like they definitely have someone in their sights.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[Madeleine74]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying the JBR case and the IC case are related or the same. Not at all. I don't know if they are similar or not.

Marazul specifically asked for someone to name one case in which a child was accidentally murdered, no previous known abuse, and the parents then covered it up. And I was answering her question, because there has been at least one in which that happened, and a high profile one at that.

ETA: Actually I consider the Madeline McCann case to fall into that same category. I think she was accidentally killed and the parents disposed of her body and made the scene out to be an abduction. Cadaver dogs 'hit' on a couple spots including the apartment the McCann's were renting during that vacation as well as on the trunk of the car they had rented.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

It's possible that JonBenet and Isabel suffered similar fates. One difference would be that Isabel's body was dumped outside, while JonBenet's body was found in the basement. Why did each parent(s) decide to dispose of the body where they did? People have speculated that Patsy didn't want her "beauty queen" exposed to the elements, but Sergio is always talking about how beautiful Isabel is, so why would he be okay with that happening with her? He probably knew that if he wanted any chance of getting away with this, he had to get rid of the body. But then why didn't the R's feel that way? Yeah, they haven't been arrested but common sense would tell you that LE finding a child's body in the home is going to point suspicion at the parents.

 

[liz b.]

It's possible that JonBenet and Isabel suffered similar fates. One difference would be that Isabel's body was dumped outside, while JonBenet's body was found in the basement. Why did each parent(s) decide to dispose of the body where they did? People have speculated that Patsy didn't want her "beauty queen" exposed to the elements, but Sergio is always talking about how beautiful Isabel is, so why would he be okay with that happening with her? He probably knew that if he wanted any chance of getting away with this, he had to get rid of the body. But then why didn't the R's feel that way? Yeah, they haven't been arrested but common sense would tell you that LE finding a child's body in the home is going to point suspicion at the parents.

The R's were/are quite wealthy. And the C's are not so wealthy. I think the R's believed their money and influence would protect them like Superman's cape...and they were right...They didn't seem to care that the hostage note was...not believable, or things like that... JMO

 

[SmoothOperator]

Originally Posted by white rabbit<br />
i agree with you...but for argument's sake, say it isn't fake. what abductor leaves not one but two items of blood evidence in the room...stashes something (shower curtain, hat, whatever) in the acura klunker, then sits in the driver's seat of the toyota? yet careful enough to leave no prints??? it makes no sense.<br />
<br />
no, they didn't confirm there was blood in the klunker...but they certainly found something they didn't like:<br />
<br />
KARLINSKY: Yes. This is very curious. <b>I was there right after the disappearance for more than a week, and we watched police just tearing apart that red car, just going through it methodically day after day</b>. Now we know from these documents they did, in fact, find what they describe as a white hat and also a shower curtain inside with a brown or reddish-brown substance on it.<br />
<br />
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1205/25/ng.01.html<br />
<br />
and there was definitely blood in the other car:<br />
<br />
"A forensics team <b>searching for traces of blood, had a positive hit on the driver's seat of a Toyota Corolla </b>parked in the driveway of the Celis home"<br />
<br />
http://www.kpho.com/story/18623691/tucson-pd-releases-new-details-on-search-for-isabel<br />
<br />
no perp is going to stick around, in his own or his victim's blood, and play leapfrog in the family cars.<br />
<br />
and if none of the above is related in any way to isa's disappearance, i do take issue with random blood stains in a little girls' bedroom and the father's car. IMO, JMO, et cetera...

<br />
Objectivity?? From the above post the shower curtain has absolutely nothing indicating it has blood on it whatsoever.. And well.. The blood found to be on passenger side obviously was of little to zero value(IMO zero) as clearly if either of these cars were found to be in any way whatsoever related to Isabel's disappearance they would have absolutely been "seized".. They were not and IMO what you described above has zero to do with her disappearance. .you can call it what you'd like but my being someone in zero way involved in the case is objective and I am calling it exactly as I see it.. If the evidence spoken about above were involved you can bet your bottom dollar the car or cars would have without a single doubt have been seized.. Not to be a broken record(but really I am) these points that I am making are more indicative of these particular issues having ZERO BEARING OR INVOLVEMENT in Isa's case than of their actually being pieces of evidence involved ..And that's looking at realistically as well objectively.. That's my point and thats very simply what i stated as well as my opinion only.. Obviously you may believe differently and that's fine as well..

I have no dog in this fight and if the proof shows Sergio or whoever to be the guilty one responsible so be it.. It's justice for Isabel that is the only one that this all about in the end..


____________________...
Posting via mobile as well as via tablet so plz forgive all typos.. Btwn the sucky touch keyboard and the obsessive auto-correct it's a big ol' mess :crazy:

 

[SmoothOperator]

He also states that they absolutely will take this to trial and that its is only at that time will they release some of the details.. im definitely leaning on them definitely having suspects within their sites and sadly from hearing his words spoken i dont believe isa is alive..jmo tho but his saying they will atleast find out what happened to her if they arent able to find her...again jmo..

“Right now we’re at a point where we are following investigative paths that keep us quite busy,” Villaseñor says. “We think that this was an abduction of some kind, so obviously that infers that there are suspects that we are looking at, or people of interest that we're looking at.”

So if they thought the SC or BC disappeared their daughter they would not call it an abduction? Is that right?

ETA - This quote sounds like they definitely have someone in their sights.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[Lark2]

The no contact order has to be hard on the boys. Sergio and company ought to just throw in the towel and come clean with what they know and/or did; LE is going to get to the bottom of it anyway.

Save us all some money, too.

 

[CJMAJORGIRL24]

BBM- Correct me if I'm wrong, but you yourself site cases to prove your point all the time. Why is siting the JBR case, as Madeleine74 did, any different than what you do?

No difference -in my opinion. JBR's case is a very important case, I believe.

 

[Okay then]

but they had a search warrant for the car and media reported LE searching it extensively...so I imagine they got whatever evidence they needed before the crime scene tape was taken down.

It is a CSI world now. imo When reading the Luka Magnotta Thread, LE in Canada processed the crime scene...got what they needed and left the bed to be discarded and the fridge where body parts were found to be cleaned and reused. :what: However, this is the USA so no telling if that is the case here. I believe LE got whatever evidence was available. jmo

 

[CJMAJORGIRL24]

Hey! What's with you and the skunks! :giggle:

I'm from the country, they are all over the place!! And in my opinion these cases just smell to high heaven. Another little girl lost. It is heartbreaking.

 

[Lava]

Thank you for your respectful and productive reply to my questions, good to see we can politely exchange contrasting opinions :tyou:

BBM
Point well taken, but what I am saying is that if " the abuse had just started" and was so new that there was no suspicion or evidence, that means they went from zero to murder pretty quickly.
I was abused too ( what is the stat, two in five if us?) on the abuse scale mine was non violent and of a sexual nature, not half of what many of you endured, mainly inappropriate touching, exposure, and propositions by a family member... Unlike you I can't say no one was able to tell, because there were signs that other adults SHOULD HAVE picked up on but didn't. I don't think either of us can say we "lived lives similar to Isa's" because we don't know if she was abused, and as you said, we don't know what happened that night.

When I say I lived a similar life to Isa, I don't mean abuse wise, because I will not say with any conviction that she was being abused, it is just a theory. But my family was very community/family oriented. My dad coached football, my brother played, and I was a cheerleader. When I was Isa's age I was also in baseball, as was my brother. My family didn't keep to themselves, they weren't suspicious, everyone loved us.

The uncles statement in the beginning that Isa was "wise" really struck a nerve with me, because it reminded me of me. I too was wise, because I knew how dangerous things were that were happening to me, I knew the trouble it would cause if it got out, so I grew up quickly and had to learn to adapt (I do not mean that this is why Isa was "wise").

I have many theories, and as horrible and strange and morbid this sounds, I hope a stranger did take her - because at least then she may still be alive. But the one I'm keeping closest to me is that someone in that house was involved, although I can't say for sure the motive. I just really wish Isa would come home already.

 

[CJMAJORGIRL24]

Has it happened since the first time when her oldest son was small?

I agree. I dont drink. I am always the designated driver if we have friends who are going to dinner who are going to have a drink.

IMO

I am really trying my best to be respectful about an issue I should clearly pass up, but here goes.

How many times is it ok for a person to drive impaired? And just because she wasn't caught, doesn't mean she hasn't done it since. She put her child and MORE IMPORTANTLY other peoples children in harms way when she was caught the first time.

I guess people won't fully understand until their family member is taken from them in a blink of an eye by someone who didn't care about themselves, their family or more importantly someone elses loved one.

Twenty -four charges wasn't enough for one man I know.

 

[Dr. Know?]

This site in the article needs shut down but there are so many online that stay up. NAMBLA for one.

Backpage.com: Doorway to sex trafficking?

snipped

The site is operated by Village Voice Media, an alternative news weekly chain based right here in Phoenix. It also owns the Phoenix New Times.

There's mounting pressure from several U.S. senators and dozens of mayors across the country to shut the site down. They say it's turning a profit on trafficking children for sex.

But at the same time, some argue this site actually helps police with their investigations -- though police say they don't support a site like this -- they admit it has helped them catch child predators.

"The entire thing is disgusting in the end when you think about sex slaves and children being victimized like this on the internet," says Holmes. "But at the same time it does give us access and I have to admit it does make it easier to follow up and to monitor."

"If I could eliminate trafficking and child sexual exploitation we would do it, we would it in a heartbeat," said Liz McDougall back in 2010, when she testified before congress. "What has happened is the ads have migrated to other sites."

more at link

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/story/1...com?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

http://tucson.backpage.com/