AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #22

[Azcrabcakes]

Saw an interesting article today about the Border Patrol finding 5 bodies in a car between Phoenix and Tucson. The bodies were burned beyond recognition, and the Border Patrol believes that they were hostages taken by the drug cartel. So, the violence is spreading into the USA from Mexico...

But, I don't for a moment believe that is what happened to Isabel Celis. The cartel looks to have other methods for resolving issues with people who owe them money,or who rat them out... Scary indeed.

JMO

That is already not a rare occurrence in AZ. Since the bodies were found in the back seat and floorboard, and no dead driver or front seat passengers, my husband and I think the bodies were dead, and were about to be dumped in the desert. In the last few months I have read of two occasions of abandoned semi's of dead bodies found in Mexico, along with dead bodies piled up in public. Why would it NOT happen here in AZ? It is so easy to cross the border...

 

[winterrose]

On whitepages and veromi the name of Ramon's relative is a nurse where RC works, so I guess she had it put under her husband's name, instead of her's. So bring isa home donations are not going thru a business, money's going to RC's friend. She's on RC's facebook friend list.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Yes, I was thinking about that a lot. But...RC says herself they are probably praying the rosary wrong. So that may show...(even though that is by no means saying she lacks faith) they may not have been that active, or invested in their religion of origin previous to her " abduction".

JMOO

to say nothing of making rosaries part of the bringIsaHome Franchise

I'm sure that many regularly practicing Catholics don't know how to pray the rosary. When my mom passed away a little more than three years ago, I wanted to lead the rosary during the brief visitation at the funeral home prior to her cremation. I had to search the internet for a "how to say the rosary" and print it so that I knew what I was doing

Several years ago, DH and I attended a visitation for a friend during which the rosary was prayed. The deceased wasn't Catholic, but someone in his family was and wanted the evening scripture service to include the rosary. Whoever it was had no idea about how to proceed, and there was actually some giggling while folks tried to get the woman leading the prayers on the right track.

With rare exception, the rosary is always included in prayer services for the deceased, and many deceased Catholics have a rosary in their folded hands that is usually removed and given to a family member before burial. In the second part of the "Hail Mary" (Ave Maria) - "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death" - pretty much says it all. Including rosaries in the Bring Isa Home campaign has troubled me from early in this case. :moo:

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

If you go through RCs facebook history, you will see that she has some comments suggesting that she wasn't religious. At one point she said she didn't go to church but she felt an urge to take her children one Sunday.

It doesn't make an ounce of difference to me, so I don't want anyone to think that I think this means something. Just stating a fact. Now, if I actually knew what happened I could make some suggestions of theories based on that. Some could take it as an innocent family leaning on religion like many others do during times of stress and trauma. Others may think it is guilty family member(s) taking advantage of the religious community. I am sure there are other things people will think as well.

In an interview with a priest from St. Joseph parish, I got the impression that he knew the family, so I think they must have attended Mass at least occasionally if not on a regular weekly basis. :moo:

 

[liz b.]

That is already not a rare occurrence in AZ. Since the bodies were found in the back seat and floorboard, and no dead driver or front seat passengers, my husband and I think the bodies were dead, and were about to be dumped in the desert. In the last few months I have read of two occasions of abandoned semi's of dead bodies found in Mexico, along with dead bodies piled up in public. Why would it NOT happen here in AZ? It is so easy to cross the border...

Yes...definately " no country for old men "... MOO

 

[winterrose]

I don't see why it was necessary to not only get donations from the medical center fund where RC works, but also from her friend where she works thru this other fund,bring isa home. Tshirts, buttons, candles, etc are sold to the public thru this and the volunteer center, which also seems to be connected to bring isa home. We don't see an accounting of how much has been brought in or where it's going from any of the three donation collectors.

 

[Galadriel]

How soon after Isa was "abducted" was the website up?

According to a WHOIS search, the website was set up on April 26:

Registered through: Domaindo.com (lower prices - same great service!)
Domain Name: BRINGISAHOME.COM
Created on: 26-Apr-12
Expires on: 26-Apr-13
Last Updated on: 26-Apr-12

It was registered by an employee of Focus Web Technologies, the group that donated the site and hosting.

 

[luvmydogs]

I'm sure that many regularly practicing Catholics don't know how to pray the rosary. When my mom passed away a little more than three years ago, I wanted to lead the rosary during the brief visitation at the funeral home prior to her cremation. I had to search the internet for a "how to say the rosary" and print it so that I knew what I was doing

Several years ago, DH and I attended a visitation for a friend during which the rosary was prayed. The deceased wasn't Catholic, but someone in his family was and wanted the evening scripture service to include the rosary. Whoever it was had no idea about how to proceed, and there was actually some giggling while folks tried to get the woman leading the prayers on the right track.

With rare exception, the rosary is always included in prayer services for the deceased, and many deceased Catholics have a rosary in their folded hands that is usually removed and given to a family member before burial. In the second part of the "Hail Mary" (Ave Maria) - "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death" - pretty much says it all. Including rosaries in the Bring Isa Home campaign has troubled me from early in this case. :moo:

I know that rosaries are prayed at funerals but at least in the Mexican Catholic culture you pray the rosary for an intention or request. We prayed a novena (9 days of prayer) when a family member was ill with cancer.

"Religious devotion, public or private, for the duration of nine days to gain special graces, is called a Novena. Those who perform it with a lively hope of having their request granted, and with perfect faith and resignation if it be refused, may be assured that Christ will grant some grace or blessing. This requires an understanding that in His infinite wisdom and mercy, He may refuse the particular favor which is requested".

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I don't see why it was necessary to not only get donations from the medical center fund where RC works, but also from her friend where she works thru this other fund,bring isa home. Tshirts, buttons, candles, etc are sold to the public thru this and the volunteer center, which also seems to be connected to bring isa home. We don't see an accounting of how much has been brought in or where it's going from any of the three donation collectors.

Hopefully, TPD has been keeping an eye on those "fund-raising" efforts and has an accounting of how much money has been collected, how it's dispersed, and to whom

 

[Salem]

When you go to the bringisahome website and click on donate - it brings you to a paypal page and the person receiving your funds is ramon angel rangel. Does anyone know who this is?

Jules - just using your post to make a reminder. Everyone, please remember we do not allow posting of donation requests without specific permission from the WS's owners, SoSue or Tricia.

HOWEVER, it is okay to sleuth and attempt to figure out if the site if fraudulent in anyway. Just please be careful naming innocent parties or making accusations.

Thanks,

Salem

 

[Madeleine74]

Not sure if the TPD would follow this or care since it was formed by volunteers after the crime occurred, but the IRS will surely want their share of whatever has been collected since (as far as I know) BringIsaHome is not a qualified 501(c)(3) nonprofit.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I know that rosaries are prayed at funerals but at least in the Mexican Catholic culture you pray the rosary for an intention or request. We prayed a novena (9 days of prayer) when a family member was ill with cancer.

"Religious devotion, public or private, for the duration of nine days to gain special graces, is called a Novena. Those who perform it with a lively hope of having their request granted, and with perfect faith and resignation if it be refused, may be assured that Christ will grant some grace or blessing. This requires an understanding that in His infinite wisdom and mercy, He may refuse the particular favor which is requested".

I hope that praying the rosary brought comfort and peace to your loved one and his/her family members. Many people find solace in a prayer mantra like the rosary or litanies. :rose:

I attended a Catholic school for 12 years, so I'm familiar with Catholic practices even though I don't espouse them at this time in my life. I didn't suggest that the rosary is only prayed for the deceased - just that it is included in funeral/burial services. When I was in school, we had a weekly Friday afternoon "May Crowning" to honor the Blessed Virgin, and we prayed the rosary during the ceremony. We also said the rosary weekly during Advent (prior to Christmas).

http://www.rosary-center.org/howto.htm

 

[Salem]

LE would probably be interested if none of the site members appear to be friends/family of Isa, kwim?

Salem

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Not sure if the TPD would follow this or care since it was formed by volunteers after the crime occurred, but the IRS will surely want their share of whatever has been collected since (as far as I know) BringIsaHome is not a qualified 501(c)(3) nonprofit.

I have researched this and found no application or confirmation of non-profit status for the organization. That's what I meant when I suggested that TPD would be following the money trail. :moo:

 

[marazul]

Just catching up, not much to add.
FTP = failure to present, I saw that asked a page or 2 back.

 

[marazul]

Just catching up, not much to add.
FTP = failure to present, I saw that asked a page or 2 back.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

LE would probably be interested if none of the site members appear to be friends/family of Isa, kwim?

Salem

TPD has been there, done that.
http://tucson.bbb.org/article/donor...lated-charities-should-be-wary-of-scams-34273

 

[Lava]

I don't see why it was necessary to not only get donations from the medical center fund where RC works, but also from her friend where she works thru this other fund,bring isa home. Tshirts, buttons, candles, etc are sold to the public thru this and the volunteer center, which also seems to be connected to bring isa home. We don't see an accounting of how much has been brought in or where it's going from any of the three donation collectors.[/QUOTE]


This has been my problem with the fundraising. As far as I see, the money goes towards more products to sell, flyers, and signs - which all encourage more donations. It seems very circular and not very effective in actually finding Isa. Yes, signs and flyers keep her face out there, and I am all for that, but I just don't think it makes sense to just do that.

 

[pieper4]

Without regard to Sergio's comment about his beautiful daughter, I have a difficult time believing that the Celis would be able to toss Isabel's body somewhere like trash. As Catholics, I'm sure that they know that human life is to be treated with dignity at all stages, and the body respected in death.

2300 The bodies of the dead must be treated with respect and charity, in faith and hope of the Resurrection. The burial of the dead is a corporal work of mercy; it honors the children of God, who are temples of the Holy Spirit.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

If Isabel died in the Celis home due to an accident, I doubt that her parents would have allowed her body to be desecrated by the elements. Rather, I believe that they would have contacted extended family to help them find a place to give Isabel a proper burial, perhaps in Mexico. While it gives me the heebie-jeebies to even think about it, that both parents emphasized Isabel's braids in interviews leaves me wondering if Isabel was dressed beautifully and her hair lovingly braided prior to her removal from the home to be laid to rest. :moo:

Not to argue, but just as an aside. My Dad is a very devout Catholic. We have cremated my Mom, sister and brother in the past 8 years. None had their ashes "interred" in any form. Some were spread at the family plot in Douglas, while others spread at Lake Tahoe... All with a priest present. The Church no longer deems cremation taboo and does not demand interment (burial). Whether this is common for those of Hispanic heritage, I can't say. Just something to consider vis a vis burial.

 

[iSleuth]

If you go through RCs facebook history, you will see that she has some comments suggesting that she wasn't religious. At one point she said she didn't go to church but she felt an urge to take her children one Sunday.

It doesn't make an ounce of difference to me, so I don't want anyone to think that I think this means something. Just stating a fact. Now, if I actually knew what happened I could make some suggestions of theories based on that. Some could take it as an innocent family leaning on religion like many others do during times of stress and trauma. Others may think it is guilty family member(s) taking advantage of the religious community. I am sure there are other things people will think as well.

Oh i absolutely agree. 100% about the family turning to and leaning on their religious community is good and natural.

As a teacher and clergy member myself, I would be the last person to say anything different. My apologies for the misunderstanding.

My comment was about something RC says herself about their prayers during one of their interviews. She spoke about praying the rosary( probably wrong-- her words) but praying every night together now, and hoping Isa can hear them.

( hmmm how does the song go? tears in heaven)

Someone had mentioned this morning( and i agree) about how their being very religious may affect their actions - regarding Isa's body and burial - if there had been an accident. And i think it absolutely might.

I havent read through RC's FB i have been too traumatized reading Sierra's tweets.
:-(

bringIsaHome follows me on twitter though!

Where are these girls!? :-(