AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #23

[SapphireSteel]

BBM
I really don't speak for other posters, and would not have a guess what others wonder; I can say that do NOT wonder why they have not released any results of any tests.

TPD has been very clear on this matter from day one. They are not going to release anything that is sensitive to the investigation and eventual prosecution. The fact that they have not released anything is NOT evidence of anything. They have inasmuch stated this as well.

I have a difficult time understanding using the lack of evidence as evidence of anything.

So you don't think that releasing people's names, addresses and telephone numbers is "sensitive"? Especially as they will presumably eventually want an unbiased jury from the same community?

Interesting...

 

[Prof]

So you don't think that releasing people's names, addresses and telephone numbers is "sensitive"? Especially as they will presumably eventually want an unbiased jury from the same community?

Interesting...

I can say that I am not an expert in Arizona's Sunshine Law that affects what information can be released in a case like this. I would never pretend to be an expert in that area. I don't know what they can or cannot redact when the media makes such a request for reports. The laws vary greatly state to state.

I simply trust that LE has stuck to all of their statements as far as not giving out information that is sensitive to the investigation, since day one.

(I don't understand the point being made or what is being implied by "Interesting..." )

 

[Madeleine74]

Administrative mistakes in document prep/name and address redaction do happen. It's very unfortunate and it's not okay and better measures should be taken in the future.

However, the vast majority of the public are not reading each page of the released docs. Not everyone is obsessed with the finer details of pending cases and the vast majority of people are content to read a brief news article and not spend the time it takes to do a deep dive.

LE will never, never release the salient details of their investigation to the public (and yes, WS is part of the public) before they have to. What they have released so far is not the core of their case. LE has no mandate to release information that will compromise a legal case being built. The public does not have a right to core case information until it is presented in court. That includes information such as test results, lab results, forensic results and any number of other details.

I realize it angers many people, but to preserve a case AND a defendant's rights AND the state's rights, investigation details are preserved for litigation. That is LE's job after catching the bad guys/gals. LE will always choose silence to protect the integrity of a case. There is nothing for the public to do, LE is not asking for assistance, and beating the "I wanna know, and that's not fair" drum isn't going to change their policies.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Administrative mistakes in document prep/name and address redaction do happen. It's very unfortunate and it's not okay and better measures should be taken in the future.

However, the vast majority of the public are not reading each page of the released docs. Not everyone is obsessed with the finer details of pending cases and the vast majority of people are content to read a brief news article and not spend the time it takes to do a deep dive.

LE will never, never release the salient details of their investigation to the public (and yes, WS is part of the public) before they have to. What they have released so far is not the core of their case. LE has no mandate to release information that will compromise a legal case being built. The public does not have a right to core case information until it is presented in court. That includes information such as test results, lab results, forensic results and any number of other details.

I realize it angers many people, but to preserve a case AND a defendant's rights AND the state's rights, investigation details are preserved for litigation. That is LE's job after catching the bad guys/gals. LE will always choose silence to protect the integrity of a case. There is nothing for the public to do, LE is not asking for assistance, and beating the "I wanna know, and that's not fair" drum isn't going to change their policies.

I 100% agree.

In view of this, I find it very strange that they would release anything AT ALL, especiallly within a month of Isabel's disappearance, in what is sure to be very early days of an investigation.

I sincerely wonder about the motivation behind this.

I hope the failure to redact details isn't indicative of the level of professionalism of the Tuscon PD but I fear it may be.

I wish to see the FBI become involved, especially as there may be an interstate/international kidnapping.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I can say that I am not an expert in Arizona's Sunshine Law that affects what information can be released in a case like this. I would never pretend to be an expert in that area. I don't know what they can or cannot redact when the media makes such a request for reports. The laws vary greatly state to state.

I simply trust that LE has stuck to all of their statements as far as not giving out information that is sensitive to the investigation, since day one.

(I don't understand the point being made or what is being implied by "Interesting..." )

I find it interesting that you don't find the release of 550+ documents with no redaction of personal details as being "sensitive", and I wonder if you would have the same view if your name address and phone number was published in the public arena?

I know I would be very disturbed by this APPARENT indiscretion.

We have very tough privacy laws here in Australia, that every one must observe, including LE. They can demand personal information certainly, they are the only ones who can, but they CANNOT publish it.

 

[carole]

I 100% agree.

In view of this, I find it very strange that they would release anything AT ALL, especiallly within a month of Isabel's disappearance, in what is sure to be very early days of an investigation.

I sincerely wonder about the motivation behind this.

I hope the failure to redact details isn't indicative of the level of professionalism of the Tuscon PD but I fear it may be.

I wish to see the FBI become involved, especially as there may be an interstate/international kidnapping.

BBM

The FBI has been involved since a few days after Isabel went missing.

 

[Madeleine74]

How do you know the FBI isn't involved?

Making assumptions about what is happening based on appearances and what can be seen is rarely accurate. The real work, the real investigation, is happening behind the scenes and far outside the eyes of the public.

The release of information that occurred last month is far more than I ever imagined. In my state LE says nothing until a trial. Some cases have taken 5 years to obtain an arrest and then finally go to trial.

LE released the documents because of the laws in AZ that apply to freedom of information. They will go by the book, the laws of their jurisdiction. They are not required to release any information that compromises their investigation. This was discussed at length back when the documents were first published.

 

[tiredblondy]

It was my understanding the FBI has been involved, here's one source...

http://gma.yahoo.com/video/news-267...t-in-isabel-celis-disappearance-29080538.html

 

[SapphireSteel]

How do you know the FBI isn't involved?

Making assumptions about what is happening based on appearances and what can be seen is rarely accurate. The real work, the real investigation, is happening behind the scenes and far outside the eyes of the public.

The release of information that occurred last month is far more than I ever imagined. In my state LE says nothing until a trial. Some cases have taken 5 years to obtain an arrest and then finally go to trial.

LE released the documents because of the laws in AZ that apply to freedom of information. They will go by the book, the laws of their jurisdiction. They are not required to release any information that compromises their investigation. This was discussed at length back when the documents were first published.

I think you are missing my point.

How do they know that the information they have released will not compromise the investigation when the investigation is still ongoing?

Surely this is something that can only be determined in hindsight?

 

[tiredblondy]

I think you are missing my point.

How do they know that the information they have released will not compromise the investigation when the investigation is still ongoing?

Surely this is something that can only be determined in hindsight?

I guess that's up to the DA and LE to determine and if a law says some stuff must be released then it will be.

I don't have a beef with LE. I think they are doing the best they can and keep it legal.

 

[tiredblondy]

Nite guys, It's almost 2:30 am here...

 

[Salem]

Hey Guys - DO NOT start bickering and arguing. If necessary, move past a post and don't respond. Alert the post if it is offensive. Remember you are responsible for your own posts. If you respond, its on you.

Better to just move the past the post, than allow things to get snippy.

Salem

 

[Shelby2]

I think the FBI probably advised LE what to release and what not to release.

ETA The FBI was called in the same day, 4/21.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - AZ AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #1

 

[Shelby2]

I find it interesting that you don't find the release of 550+ documents with no redaction of personal details as being "sensitive", and I wonder if you would have the same view if your name address and phone number was published in the public arena?

I know I would be very disturbed by this APPARENT indiscretion.

We have very tough privacy laws here in Australia, that every one must observe, including LE. They can demand personal information certainly, they are the only ones who can, but they CANNOT publish it.

LE has given more than a few press conferences where they spoke about 'sensitive issues'. It seems that these issues concerned evidence they discovered but could not disclose. I would not consider the name of a witness to be sensitive information in THAT context. I am not saying it is not sensitive, personal information though.

 

[GutFeeling!]

Please see the Alison Baden-Clay case. Police returned the family vehicles about a week before they arrested the husband.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/ipad/police-return-baden-clays-4wd/story-fn6ck45n-1226383934813

LOL Seriously cn't compare Australia to America - worlds apart lol

 

[GutFeeling!]

I find it interesting that you don't find the release of 550+ documents with no redaction of personal details as being "sensitive", and I wonder if you would have the same view if your name address and phone number was published in the public arena?

I know I would be very disturbed by this APPARENT indiscretion.

We have very tough privacy laws here in Australia, that every one must observe, including LE. They can demand personal information certainly, they are the only ones who can, but they CANNOT publish it.

BBM - that information is not sensitive to the case. It may be sensitive to the people named, we all wondered about that when the documents were released but as usual, no one has taken an interest in any of them on here.

I am an Australian living in America, I deal with crime daily and did in Australia, attempting to compare the two countries legal systems or investigative procedures is like comparing apples to oranges - you just can't.

Btw - Welcome to WS, I only just realized you joined this month

 

[FrayedKnot]

I really dont keep up with cases in other countries.

I was talking about cases here in the US.

imo

My apologies.

You didn't specify that in your original post which is why the poster probably mentioned the AU case.

It is a pretty big story right now and has a lot of people following it, so I can see why it was used as an example. But as you were asking for US only examples, it wouldn't fit the bill!

 

[FrayedKnot]

So you don't think that releasing people's names, addresses and telephone numbers is "sensitive"? Especially as they will presumably eventually want an unbiased jury from the same community?

Interesting...

Yes! Especially the names of the minor children and also of witnesses who phoned in tips! That is cray cray!

I wondered about that myself......how is that not some sort of violation? Or at least going to come back to bite them at trial?

 

[FrayedKnot]

LOL Seriously cn't compare Australia to America - worlds apart lol

I get that, but again, the OP didn't say US cases only. I think SapphireSteel's offering was quite a good one considering how big the Baden-Clay case is!

The poster came back later and corrected us all by saying she didn't follow any cases outside the US, but before that, who could have known?

 

[FrayedKnot]

It's like this -

Nowdays forensic processing is so thorough that all evidence is gathered, leaving behind a potential crime scene, but one that has already given up its secrets.

They go through these things like a dose of salts, once something is processed correctly, forensically speaking, it is no longer useful in and of itself. The information has been taken away and all that is left is a relic.

For example, once a vehicle or house has been swabbed thoroughly for say, blood or DNA, the truth is sitting in the lab. Repeated swabbing is not going to yield any further information.

It's kind of like virginity - once it's taken, it's taken completely.

This is true, regardless of geography

Science is science (except did you know your water drains the wrong way? LOL) whether it is in AU or US.

I noticed in the Magnotta case in CA that police took the samples they needed from the apartment and discarded the rest. I was shocked by that, too, until some knowledgable posters explained basically what you did above.

I wonder what reason LE in the US would have for holding onto items long after the evidence has been gleaned? Maybe in case new technology becomes available? It does take YEARS for our cases to go to trial here........hmmmmm

Oh, and WELCOME to WS SapphireSteel!