AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #23

[SapphireSteel]

I have never heard about a vehicle that actually had forensic evidence in it of a crime being returned before a trial.

In fact they still had CAs vehicle until the Pinellas clueless set her free. LE had it for three years.

What cases had forensic evidence in a vehicle of a crime where the vehicle was never seized and returned before trial? tia

IMO, they did not seize the Celis vehicles because they found no evidence in it of a crime nor was anything found that connected the items to Isa's disappearance.

imo

Please see the Alison Baden-Clay case. Police returned the family vehicles about a week before they arrested the husband.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/ipad/police-return-baden-clays-4wd/story-fn6ck45n-1226383934813

 

[gliving]

Please see the Alison Baden-Clay case. Police returned the family vehicles about a week before they arrested the husband.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/ipad/police-return-baden-clays-4wd/story-fn6ck45n-1226383934813

That's in Australia? I assume their procedures might be different.

 

[carole]

I have never heard about a vehicle that actually had forensic evidence in it of a crime being returned before a trial.

In fact they still had CAs vehicle until the Pinellas clueless set her free. LE had it for three years.

What cases had forensic evidence in a vehicle of a crime where the vehicle was never seized and returned before trial? tia

IMO, they did not seize the Celis vehicles because they found no evidence in it of a crime nor was anything found that connected the items to Isa's disappearance.

imo

BBM

The Anthonys didn't want the car back, it was finally destroyed. All of the relevant evidence had been removed from the car and was physically entered into evidence at the trial.

 

[Dee10]

They don't need the whole truck if there is one drop of blood.

Of course before this happened there would be photographs, etc.

From the Physical Evidence Manual:
http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/Phys_Evid_Manual_OR.pdf

[FONT=&quot]Cut out the stain[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This may be desirable when the dried bloodstain is on an object such as the[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]upholstery of a car seat or on carpeting. Use a clean, sharp knife or scissors to[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]excise the stained area. Include areas that are unstained in your cutting for use[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]as a negative control. Package into a paper envelope and seal.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
In the Anthony case, the car would/could be needed due to the smell in the trunk as well as the stains, indentation, much of the case was focused on the trunk so of course it would be needed.

In a shooting say a mall, office, bus, subway car it becomes a crime scene until they have gathered all the evidence they need then it is released IF the other shell so to speak has nothing to do with the crime or documented such that it is no longer needed. The Celis house is a crime scene, Lisa Irwin's & Ayla's house same and they gathered the evidence & released the house back.

 

[Lark2]

"Always" and "never" statements...they are used a lot on this thread, as a way to make a point.

 

[FrayedKnot]

That's in Australia? I assume their procedures might be different.

I wasn't aware that the OP was referring only to cases in the US. I believe she said she had NEVER heard of a case in which an impounded car was returned to the suspects.

But I may be wrong.

 

[FrayedKnot]

"Always" and "never" statements are rarely supported by facts.

So true! Hi, friend. How have you been?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Please see the Alison Baden-Clay case. Police returned the family vehicles about a week before they arrested the husband.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/ipad/police-return-baden-clays-4wd/story-fn6ck45n-1226383934813

Thank you.

I have never heard of this case. Did this happen in Australia?

I really dont know how other countries conduct their investigations but here I have never heard of a seized vehicle that held forensic evidence of a crime being released before a trial.

Did they find forensic evidence in his vehicle? The article you linked did not mention if forensic evidence was found in the vehicle.

tia

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I wasn't aware that the OP was referring only to cases in the US. I believe she said she had NEVER heard of a case in which an impounded car was returned to the suspects.

But I may be wrong.

I really dont keep up with cases in other countries.

I was talking about cases here in the US.

imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

They don't need the whole truck if there is one drop of blood.

Of course before this happened there would be photographs, etc.

From the Physical Evidence Manual:
http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/Phys_Evid_Manual_OR.pdf

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
In the Anthony case, the car would/could be needed due to the smell in the trunk as well as the stains, indentation, much of the case was focused on the trunk so of course it would be needed.

In a shooting say a mall, office, bus, subway car it becomes a crime scene until they have gathered all the evidence they need then it is released IF the other shell so to speak has nothing to do with the crime or documented such that it is no longer needed. The Celis house is a crime scene, Lisa Irwin's & Ayla's house same and they gathered the evidence & released the house back.

I still think it is quite different when it comes to vehicles that hold forensic evidence in them though. If it ever went to trial the defense team would want to run their own test on the vehicle as is their right and would be unable to do so since it had been turned over to the owners even before a trial began.

I have just never heard of a case where it happened in the US. I am not saying that it has never happened but I have never heard of it.

They sure havent released AGTs vehicle back to his wife and imo, wont and only if he is found NG will he get his vehicle returned and LE took photos and tested the inside of the car too but there is nothing more powerful than having the actual car in tact.

They have even brought vehicles into the courtroom before or taken jurors to see a vehicle that held forensic evidence.

I remember even in the rape case where the guy (Alex ?) lived abroad for 8 years before being caught they brought his jeep vehicle into the courtroom to show the jurors how he was able to rape the young woman.

I just dont think TPD found anything in the Celis' vehicles or they would have seized their vehicles and would still have them.

The jurors werent allowed to open the CA car or see it. Only photos and the truck felt they cut out and other items found but yet they still seized the car and kept it for three years. Then it was released back to George and Cindy who wanted it destroyed. Casey being found NG is the only reason the car was released.

IMO

 

[Madeleine74]

Just because the public isn't talking about the case as much as before (and really, what is there left to say that hasn't already been speculated about umpteen times?) doesn't mean TPD and other agencies aren't working on this case. A case goes cold when LE no longer has any of their staff/investigators/or anyone working the case. That has not happened in the Isa case. We are not privy to what happens inside an investigation and must wait for news reports, but LE is still working the case and trying to solve it. If in doubt, call the TPD and ask them.

 

[SapphireSteel]

It's like this -

Nowdays forensic processing is so thorough that all evidence is gathered, leaving behind a potential crime scene, but one that has already given up its secrets.

They go through these things like a dose of salts, once something is processed correctly, forensically speaking, it is no longer useful in and of itself. The information has been taken away and all that is left is a relic.

For example, once a vehicle or house has been swabbed thoroughly for say, blood or DNA, the truth is sitting in the lab. Repeated swabbing is not going to yield any further information.

It's kind of like virginity - once it's taken, it's taken completely.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Thank you.

I have never heard of this case. Did this happen in Australia?

I really dont know how other countries conduct their investigations but here I have never heard of a seized vehicle that held forensic evidence of a crime being released before a trial.

Did they find forensic evidence in his vehicle? The article you linked did not mention if forensic evidence was found in the vehicle.

tia

<modnsip> it's one of the "hot cases" on this site.

We don't know if they found forensic evidence, but I assume so as they arrested him. We will find out at trial.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Just because the public isn't talking about the case as much as before (and really, what is there left to say that hasn't already been speculated about umpteen times?) doesn't mean TPD and other agencies aren't working on this case. A case goes cold when LE no longer has any of their staff/investigators/or anyone working the case. That has not happened in the Isa case. We are not privy to what happens inside an investigation and must wait for news reports, but LE is still working the case and trying to solve it. If in doubt, call the TPD and ask them.

I found it very odd that LE released all of that (potentially sensitive) information, then fell completely silent.

IMO, this indicates one of two things -

1. the release was carefully planned to increase pressure on a suspect/witness and force them to talk

2. They have no idea what they're doing.

I hope it's 1. and that an arrest is imminent. I am positive they have not stopped investigating.

<modsnip>...I want the FBI involved.:moo:

 

[Madeleine74]

Let's consider a 3rd reason:

3. They released information that doesn't really lead anywhere but it lets the public have some access to info about the investigation. It shows how thorough LE has been, how much they've chased leads down, even ridiculous ones, and yet it doesn't give away the core of their case. It worked to assuage the public to some extent, people aren't complaining about the $$ of the investigation since they now see what's been done, and it gets the public (to some extent) off their back.

I'd say it was a winning strategy.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Let's consider a 3rd reason:

3. They released information that doesn't really lead anywhere but it lets the public have some access to info about the investigation. It shows how thorough LE has been, how much they've chased leads down, even ridiculous ones, and yet it doesn't give away the core of their case. It worked to assuage the public to some extent, people aren't complaining about the $$ of the investigation since they now see what's been done, and it gets the public (to some extent) off their back.

I'd say it was a winning strategy.

It might've worked for the first week, but I'm sure I'm not alone in wondering why they haven't released anything further, for example if it was indeed blood in Isa's room, if so, who it belonged to. The test results are surely back by now, the initial results would've been available within 24 hours.

To me, at this point, it seems as though they tried to put out a fire with gasoline.

I sincerely hope you're right, and that this silence is just the calm before the storm.

They certainly cannot be criticised for thoroughness - the search they undertook was detailed and exhaustive.

I do question, however, why sensitive details like names, addresses and phone numbers were not redacted, especially so early in the investigation. No LE operates investigations to "assuage the public"...or they shouldn't...it should be the LAST concern in finding justice. IMO.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

<modsnip>, it's one of the "hot cases" on this site.

We don't know if they found forensic evidence, but I assume so as they arrested him. We will find out at trial.

The case does sound interesting but 'no' I had never heard of the case that I can recall. I do good to keep up with some of the cases happening here in the states. Unfortunately, we have many cases right here in our own country. Way too many, imo.

imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

It's like this -

Nowdays forensic processing is so thorough that all evidence is gathered, leaving behind a potential crime scene, but one that has already given up its secrets.

They go through these things like a dose of salts, once something is processed correctly, forensically speaking, it is no longer useful in and of itself. The information has been taken away and all that is left is a relic.

For example, once a vehicle or house has been swabbed thoroughly for say, blood or DNA, the truth is sitting in the lab. Repeated swabbing is not going to yield any further information.

It's kind of like virginity - once it's taken, it's taken completely.

I do understand what you are saying but it seems to be SOP here in the states to seize and keep any vehicle that is found to have forensic evidence of a crime in it especially if the results pointed toward a homicide.

Of course LE has seized vehicles before but after forensically testing it and it yielding nothing.... the vehicle was returned to its rightful owner. But that is because the vehicle(s) yielded no results/evidence inside of it connecting the items found to any crime.

imo

 

[FORDANIEL]

I still believe that an arrest is coming,very shortly,I thought it might come today,on Father's day. I have absolutely NO evidence to support my opinion-just a gut feeling.And I do not believe anyone else has evidence +to support their feelings or opinion as well.I do believe that there is evidence,that which TPD got an extension,before releasing.We shall see-I hope I am so wrong-that this is a hoax,or whatever-so that little Isa is alive,but I do not believe that this is the case.All just MHO.

 

[Prof]

It might've worked for the first week, but I'm sure I'm not alone in wondering why they haven't released anything further, for example if it was indeed blood in Isa's room, if so, who it belonged to. The test results are surely back by now, the initial results would've been available within 24 hours.

To me, at this point, it seems as though they tried to put out a fire with gasoline.

I sincerely hope you're right, and that this silence is just the calm before the storm.

They certainly cannot be criticised for thoroughness - the search they undertook was detailed and exhaustive.

I do question, however, why sensitive details like names, addresses and phone numbers were not redacted, especially so early in the investigation. No LE operates investigations to "assuage the public"...or they shouldn't...it should be the LAST concern in finding justice. IMO.

BBM
I really don't speak for other posters, and would not have a guess what others wonder; I can say that I certainly do NOT wonder why they have not released any results of any tests. I have never wondered why they have not.

TPD has been very clear on this matter from day one. They are not going to release anything that is sensitive to the investigation and eventual prosecution. The fact that they have not released anything is NOT evidence of anything. They have inasmuch stated this as well.

I have a difficult time understanding using the lack of evidence as evidence of anything.