AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #23

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Gosh no, FOI makes documents be released, LE have no say in it in the big picture. I say that because initially requests are sent to LE agencies, they have a certain amount of time to respond, if they say no they will not be releasing information it goes up thee ladder. The State attorney has the final say as to what will and won't be released.

Yes, and so far the only documents we've seen are a small sample from Tucson PD. We haven't seen any FBI or State Marshall's documents. If, as other posters have implied, the document contents are of the non-sensitive type, then are they insignificant in the large picture?
 
I get that, but again, the OP didn't say US cases only. I think SapphireSteel's offering was quite a good one considering how big the Baden-Clay case is!

The poster came back later and corrected us all by saying she didn't follow any cases outside the US, but before that, who could have known?

:)

I knew.

Considering the vast differences between justice systems and even investigative techniques between countries, I thought it was clear that only country-to-country comparisons have any real informative value.

What I mean by differences in investigative techniques: DNA is DNA, no matter what country it is found in. However, permissible uses of DNA vary widely from country to country. For example, in Great Britain, there have been some famous cases where the police basically did a cattle call on all the men in a village, company or other rather large group in order to try to match DNA found at a crime scene. It's perfectly legal to do so in Great Britain.

However, can you even begin to imagine the screams of outrage if police in the US did a cattle call of 800+ possible donors, just based on geographical location? If the public uproar didn't force the police to back down, the court challenges would.

So, two different countries with two different sets of rules for investigators means that directly comparing the two countries would not be a valid comparison.

Apples to apples is such a basic rule of comparison that I took it for granted that it was inferred to apply in this request.
 
Yes, and so far the only documents we've seen are a small sample from Tucson PD. We haven't seen any FBI or State Marshall's documents. If, as other posters have implied, the document contents are of the non-sensitive type, then are they insignificant in the large picture?

Trying to get FBI info and Marshall's info is like trying to get a photo of a lunar eclipse, it can be done, it has been done but often something stops us getting it - cloud cover etc lol

I am not sure what is and isn't insignificant. I am not sure any of us would know unless this goes to trial. Only then will we be able to link a name and address that has been released to other information that their knowledge may have led too (sorry if I am not clear - working and only in and out here lol - please don't tell my boss LOL)

Until someone asks LE what is their definition of "non-sensitive and case-sensitive" information in relation to this case all that is unknown. IMO (I keep forgetting imo - sorry)
 
After reading most of the news stories and interviews I can't see anything that would make the parents look suspicious.On the other hand why would abductors choose to kidnap a girl from an area that 1)has a huge wall that would make the abduction more difficult, 2)is just feet away from neighbors that could easily hear, 3) has dogs that bark.
The abductors sure took a big risk!

I have said many times when discussing abduction cases like this that these predators are high risk takers. I think it is part of their sick twisted game they play..maybe even part of the thrill. To let people know they can come right into your home and abduct your child, children, and it doesn't matter if you have walls or dogs.

IMO
 
In deference to Ocean Blue:

In the Danielle van Dam case, David Westerfield's motorhome was brought to the underground parking area of the Hall of Justice (my workplace), so jurors could tour through.
 
I have said many times when discussing abduction cases like this that these predators are high risk takers. I think it is part of their sick twisted game they play..maybe even part of the thrill. To let people know they can come right into your home and abduct your child, children, and it doesn't matter if you have walls or dogs.

IMO

ITA. I am no psychologist but it almost seems that with some of these sickos that the thrill of the blatant abduction is equal to the thrill of the sick deeds they commit afterwards.

:(
 
How do you know the FBI isn't involved?

Making assumptions about what is happening based on appearances and what can be seen is rarely accurate. The real work, the real investigation, is happening behind the scenes and far outside the eyes of the public.

The release of information that occurred last month is far more than I ever imagined. In my state LE says nothing until a trial. Some cases have taken 5 years to obtain an arrest and then finally go to trial.

LE released the documents because of the laws in AZ that apply to freedom of information. They will go by the book, the laws of their jurisdiction. They are not required to release any information that compromises their investigation. This was discussed at length back when the documents were first published.

I believe the FBI has been involved since day one. We will never see their reports (sadly)...but believe me they are there!
 
In deference to Ocean Blue:

In the Danielle van Dam case, David Westerfield's motorhome was brought to the underground parking area of the Hall of Justice (my workplace), so jurors could tour through.

Totally off topic but how damn sexy is it saying "I work at the Hall of Justice" - I would be turned on every time I said it .... please continue.
 
After reading most of the news stories and interviews I can't see anything that would make the parents look suspicious.On the other hand why would abductors choose to kidnap a girl from an area that 1)has a huge wall that would make the abduction more difficult, 2)is just feet away from neighbors that could easily hear, 3) has dogs that bark.
The abductors sure took a big risk!

I have read them also, and I see where at least "Dad" could be very much responsible for Isabel's vanishing. But of course that is just my opinion. Whoever has harmed Isabel, will be caught. I am confident of that.
 
After reading most of the news stories and interviews I can't see anything that would make the parents look suspicious.On the other hand why would abductors choose to kidnap a girl from an area that 1)has a huge wall that would make the abduction more difficult, 2)is just feet away from neighbors that could easily hear, 3) has dogs that bark.
The abductors sure took a big risk!

1) It isn't clear to me whether the gates in the wall have two way locks on them or only one way; if one way locks, then the walls are not a significant deterrent to a reasonably athletic perp. Up and over the wall to get in, then out through the gate.

2) Neighbours being able to hear is only important if there was something to hear. For one thing, this is Tucson and it was already getting warm enough for many people to run their swamp coolers or a/c, which would tend to mask other sounds.

3) Dogs that bark tend to be ignored. The owners and neighbours learn to tune them out or the humans would go nuts alerting every time there was a sparrow invasion of Dog Air Space Territory.

Research seems to indicate that psychopaths have an abnormally low reaction to anticipated aversive events. For instance, one study had volunteers place a hand on a metal plate that would heat up rapidly to uncomfortable (but not harmful) temperatures. The researchers played a tone a few seconds before heating up the plate. They hooked up the EEG monitors and away they went.

The normal participants in the study started to show a marked response as soon as the tone was played before the heat was turned up. The psychopaths in the study showed almost no anticipatory reaction to the sound of the tone, even though their reaction to the actual heated plate was the same as normal volunteers.

What this means is that psychopaths have a much lower response to anticipating potentially bad things happening to them. It leads them into risk taking because it simply doesn't bother them very much to think of the motorcycle they are riding wildly crashing or getting caught committing some crime.

This is something that has been observed for over 60 years. For instance, during WWII, the military experimented with deliberately selecting for psychopaths as fighter pilots, thinking that their relative fearlessness would be an asset in fighter combat. They rapidly discovered that psychopath fighter pilots were just as likely to shoot down someone on their own side, just for the fun of it. Or deliberately take huge risks and crash the jet, again, just for the fun of it.

That program was abandoned quickly.
 
ITA. I am no psychologist but it almost seems that with some of these sickos that the thrill of the blatant abduction is equal to the thrill of the sick deeds they commit afterwards.

:(

I just thought of John Couey taking Jessica Lunsford right out of her bed, while her grandparents (and little dog) slept away. VERY SCARY!! But I bet he loved every second of it.
 
ITA. I am no psychologist but it almost seems that with some of these sickos that the thrill of the blatant abduction is equal to the thrill of the sick deeds they commit afterwards.

:(

Hi FK!

I do think they are in league of their own.

I remember reading about the ringleader who murdered the Petit family and it came out he would creep into people's homes at night and be right up at the bed watching them sleep and the people never knew he was even there.

It seems it was some type of thrill to him to know he could invade the privacy of a home while knowing no one knew he was there. That is so creepy it causes me to shudder.

Then we have what is called cat burglars who can come into an occupied home at night they have never been in and go through it stealing things without making a sound and leaving without the occupants even knowing they had been there.

It just seems to me these type of people are very high risk takers and that is one of the things that makes it thrilling to them. Imo, it a sick twisted game they play with other people's lives.

IMO
 
Even still, we'll only know what's presented in court. If something doesn't come in, we probably won't hear about it. Sorry, but the public will never know 100% of the details in any case.
 
1)
Research seems to indicate that psychopaths have an abnormally low reaction to anticipated aversive events. For instance, one study had volunteers place a hand on a metal plate that would heat up rapidly to uncomfortable (but not harmful) temperatures. The researchers played a tone a few seconds before heating up the plate. They hooked up the EEG monitors and away they went.

The normal participants in the study started to show a marked response as soon as the tone was played before the heat was turned up. The psychopaths in the study showed almost no anticipatory reaction to the sound of the tone, even though their reaction to the actual heated plate was the same as normal volunteers.

What this means is that psychopaths have a much lower response to anticipating potentially bad things happening to them. It leads them into risk taking because it simply doesn't bother them very much to think of the motorcycle they are riding wildly crashing or getting caught committing some crime.

This is something that has been observed for over 60 years. For instance, during WWII, the military experimented with deliberately selecting for psychopaths as fighter pilots, thinking that their relative fearlessness would be an asset in fighter combat. They rapidly discovered that psychopath fighter pilots were just as likely to shoot down someone on their own side, just for the fun of it. Or deliberately take huge risks and crash the jet, again, just for the fun of it.

That program was abandoned quickly.

That is fascinating! I just spent time reading more on this topic! I know very little about psychology/behavior - for some odd reason the topic of psychology, and income taxes as well, gives me the heebie-jeebies. Don't have a clue as to why. But I do enjoy reading about what might make a certain personality behave as they do. Thanks!
 
1) It isn't clear to me whether the gates in the wall have two way locks on them or only one way; if one way locks, then the walls are not a significant deterrent to a reasonably athletic perp. Up and over the wall to get in, then out through the gate.

2) Neighbours being able to hear is only important if there was something to hear. For one thing, this is Tucson and it was already getting warm enough for many people to run their swamp coolers or a/c, which would tend to mask other sounds.

3) Dogs that bark tend to be ignored. The owners and neighbours learn to tune them out or the humans would go nuts alerting every time there was a sparrow invasion of Dog Air Space Territory.

<respectfully snipped>


I think how the gate locks is important to determine if it is any deterant or not, both coming and going. My bet is that it is not.

Who knows what the talking was about. It could be something or not! I wish we knew because so far I hate working it into any timeline.

Our neighbor's dog barking means nothing, he barks at other dogs. I get tired of it, the dog is a sweety, but the owners got him to protect their property. I guess they didn't realize he would need to be trained.
 
Hi FK!

I do think they are in league of their own.

I remember reading about the ringleader who murdered the Petit family and it came out he would creep into people's homes at night and be right up at the bed watching them sleep and the people never knew he was even there.

It seems it was some type of thrill to him to know he could invade the privacy of a home while knowing no one knew he was there. That is so creepy it causes me to shudder.

Then we have what is called cat burglars who can come into an occupied home at night they have never been in and go through it stealing things without making a sound and leaving without the occupants even knowing they had been there.

It just seems to me these type of people are very high risk takers and that is one of the things that makes it thrilling to them. Imo, it a sick twisted game they play with other people's lives.

IMO


I am one on this thread who is not forgetting the three girl assault just 10 minutes away two weeks later. The perp came through the window, and sexually assaulted a six year old with two other girls in the same room, and three adults in the home. There were dogs in that neighborhood. That attack happened around 2 am --While Isa disappeared at the beginning of a weekend, the girls were assaulted at the end of a weekend.
 
I am one on this thread who is not forgetting the three girl assault just 10 minutes away two weeks later. The perp came through the window, and sexually assaulted a six year old with two other girls in the same room, and three adults in the home. There were dogs in that neighborhood. That attack happened around 2 am --While Isa disappeared at the beginning of a weekend, the girls were assaulted at the end of a weekend.

Nothing more ever happened with that case, did it? I wonder if they have DNA, they just can't identify it?

Did you bring up the dogs because they alerted someone or no one heard anything.

I agree with others, I think Isa could very well have been taken by a stranger and my guess would be a pedophile. And, much earlier that morning like the other girls. If it's fairly easy to get in and out, the walls can be a benefit as much as a detriment since no one can see in them unless standing on top of something.

I'm still not convinced the parents didn't do something or that if a 'stranger' took her, it was a complete stranger to the family (and no direct parental involvement).
 
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