GUILTY AZ - Madeline 'Maddie' Jones, 19 & William Jones-Gouchenour, 9 mos, found safe, Mesa, 15 Jun 2017

[missgulfsouth]

couple of quick thoughts. Yes, it is HOT here, but we do walk around outside here, some of us quite a bit, some of us even continue to hike. It would seem impossible to a tourist, but it absolutely happens. We get accustomed to it, and it is dry. That said, do I think she walked anywhere really? no, just wanted to say it is not completely out of the realm.

Also IMO - if there was someone in the canal, they'd have been found pretty quickly.

Sadly, I think she and her baby have been secreted away by someone with bad intentions.

My dad lives in Phoenix. Of course I realize people are accustomed to being in the heat, but even he (retired police officer who has lived there for 35 years) melts at 105 degrees. If it were Madeline by herself, no problem. But with a baby in the heat and zero provisions or necessities?

 

[creepcrusher]

lol I don't walk anywhere here, not in this heat! And certainly not with a baby. But that is my personal preference. I own 2 vehicles so, I don't have to. I agree that it's not unimaginable.

I am hoping otherwise. I am hoping she left and had help. If she had an appointment with her attorney, she had an opportunity to leave the home and not be expected for a bit. She had an opportunity to get out of a bad situation. Really hoping to get an update soon.


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This would be the best case scenario. I really hope you are right. I'm a little worried that the worst has happened and Madeline may turn out to be a victim of a crime.

 

[Oregonmama]

All of you bring up excellent points. JMO, sounds like the young mother was upset about the baby's father getting visits so I am going to say that it is a good possibility she left on her own with help from a friend.

 

[ellbee]

All of you bring up excellent points. JMO, sounds like the young mother was upset about the baby's father getting visits so I am going to say that it is a good possibility she left on her own with help from a friend.

As a young mother that had a ex, it's not far fetched to me. Had things been bad enough, I'd do anything to protect my daughter. Even leave with nothing. Leaving with nothing makes it easier for her family think she didn't leave at all, thus giving her more time to get wherever she is going without people searching for her.


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[missgulfsouth]

As a young mother that had a ex, it's not far fetched to me. Had things been bad enough, I'd do anything to protect my daughter. Even leave with nothing. Leaving with nothing makes it easier for her family think she didn't leave at all, thus giving her more time to get wherever she is going without people searching for her.


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Sure, I'd have a plan. It may involve Mexico if I lived in Arizona. But I would need documents ... if not immediately, for the baby eventually. If they stay in the U.S., he needs a SSN for medical care and once he starts school, probably a birth certificate, too. Leaving completely would involve changing identities and that is not easy. It's not something you do on the spur of the moment. The theory of her hiding out offers the best possible outcome, but it's not the vibe I'm getting here. I would love to be wrong.

 

[ellbee]

Sure, I'd have a plan. It may involve Mexico if I lived in Arizona. But I would need documents ... if not immediately, for the baby eventually. If they stay in the U.S., he needs a SSN for medical care and once he starts school, probably a birth certificate, too. Leaving completely would involve changing identities and that is not easy. It's not something you do on the spur of the moment. The theory of her hiding out offers the best possible outcome, but it's not the vibe I'm getting here. I would love to be wrong.

Did we confirm that she didn't have those documents? She left a lot of things you'd assume she'd need but that doesn't mean she didn't take a bag separate from her purse with important documents. Her mom might have not even thought to look.


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[missgulfsouth]

Did we confirm that she didn't have those documents? She left a lot of things you'd assume she'd need but that doesn't mean she didn't take a bag separate from her purse with important documents. Her mom might have not even thought to look.


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She would have had to have new documents with new identities prepared, she can't use anything with her name, the baby's name, their SSN's, etc because they would be found. If this was something she planned to do, it would take a lot of preparation and black market / underground connections, probably involving identity theft. In order to do it right and convincingly, you have to know people. Unless it a WPP situation, which this is definitely not. I just don't see that scenario happening here.

If she were hiding out with a friend, biding her time, she would gain nothing. Once she fled with that baby, any custody issues are not going to be favorable to her. And she may face jail time. It's just not worth it.

 

[cvaldez1975]

not that strange when the mother has a history of unstable behavior.

http://www.azfamily.com/clip/13425677/mesa

 

[cvaldez1975]

it took my husband 30k and 15 months to get joint legal, 50/50 of 2 of the kids and 1005 of the one she was scapegoating. she was proven to be scapegoating and displaying abusive behavior to one of them yet still got 50/50 of the other two. as if its impossible for her behavior to reoccur with another one of them.....

I sure this doesn't turn out like baby Gabriel. It took me a year and over $15,000 in attorney fee's to get sole customer of my kids. I would think something very bad for the father to get awarded sole custody.

 

[cvaldez1975]

I feel sad for the kid and dad if it turns out mom is fine and just took off with him.

It was granted after she left with the baby, I believe. When there is a threat of relocating with kids, the judge will usually grant an order for full custody to prevent the other party from leaving. So now this woman has vanished with a child that she has no custody of. She will certainly face legal issues once she is found. Sad story all around.

 

[cvaldez1975]

depends on what paperwork says. in my husband's case, they have to notify each other if they are leaving the county overnight.

its cases like this (if mom is ok and left w baby to run from shared custody) that ppl don't take abuse claims seriously on just mom's word anymore. que adressian case.

By granting the father full custody, does her being missing now fall under the window of kidnapping? I ask because when she left she DID have partial custody and is allowed to travel without permission. She doesn't HAVE TO let anyone know where she is as long as she has the baby back to the other guardian when her time is up, right?

 

[msphilosopher]

This is a tough one.

Who's side do you believe?

I guess I'm looking forward to proof regarding:

1. HER unstable behavior claimed by ex husband
2. HER mental health claimed by ex
<modsnip>

Did she leave out of spite because she doesn't want him involved in his life? Or did she leave because the child is better off / safe without father's involvement? Or was she and/or baby harmed?

This is a tough one. Not quite sure what I think yet.

 

[Ambitioned]

But why vanish without taking a car seat, diaper bag and money at least? Those things are untraceable. My concern is that not taking them means she won't be needing them.

I knew someone in an abusive situation. She used the underground railroad and they provided the supplies. Not saying this is the case here but throwing that in.

I pray mom and baby are doing ok.

 

[missgulfsouth]

When I first happened on this case I asked myself what my thoughts and feelings would be if this were a missing father/child and same circumstances, taking no items of identity, money or baby care. And that's what I went with here.

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

we also have women here who are sorta like an "underground railroad" (perhaps this is what you are referring to and I am just dense) - former LDS and subsects, helping others who want out of those communities. I still don't sense that is what is going on here but we have to consider everything.

 

[cvaldez1975]

the history of this case looks very complicated and high conflict.

<modsnip>

 

[cvaldez1975]

one reason is mom was with holding. also personal experience.

He has only seen his son twice since birth, and that has been under supervision. Hmmm.... IMO, and based on personal experience, there is a reason for that. JMO

 

[missgulfsouth]

I knew someone in an abusive situation. She used the underground railroad and they provided the supplies. Not saying this is the case here but throwing that in.

I pray mom and baby are doing ok.

Did she get a new identity or did she get her old life back with no issues?

 

[cvaldez1975]

thank you.... and if she is crying sexual abuse, the judge would have listened until or unless he was able to prove he wasn't. my husband's ex likes to cry alcoholic. my husband agreed to test three times... first randomly, second after his time w kids, third one test at HER choosing. never tested positive for alcohol. she also went through three attorneys in 15 months. <modsnip> I don't know what is going on here but I take everything with a grain of salt at this time.

In most cases that would be true that there was something to it. However, in this case the judge just awarded emergency sole custody to the father and a warrant was issued for the child. I don't think the judge would do so if there was concern that the father was a danger to the child.

If you read the docket at the link posted earlier you can see that the divorce litigation started some 3 months prior to the birth of the child. There was even a motion for a paternity test. And the docket clearly shows this being a contentious adversarial proceeding with all the bells and whistles

 

[ellbee]

This is a tough one.

Who's side do you believe?

I guess I'm looking forward to proof regarding:

1. HER unstable behavior claimed by ex husband
2. HER mental health claimed by ex
<modsnip>

Did she leave out of spite because she doesn't want him involved in his life? Or did she leave because the child is better off / safe without father's involvement? Or was she and/or baby harmed?

This is a tough one. Not quite sure what I think yet.

Let's think about this though - if a woman is upset or overreacts to any situation, a defensive man will usually claim she has mental health issues. And hell, maybe she does. I do. It doesn't prevent me from having a professional job or raising my children but they do exist nonetheless. To accuse someone of mental issues is common and easy. <modsnip>


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